Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[10ofRods]

He’s an actor, not a trained safety specialist. As far as I know, he’s not an avid gun handler in real life. How often did AB encounter, and have to recognize, LIVE rounds in the firearms he used on previous movie sets? In this case, live rounds were not recognized by the armourer, nor the AD.

He's a member of Actors Equity Union or he wouldn't be working on big movies. They have standards and protocols, one of which is that there should be a safety meeting with the actors there on the morning of any shoot that will be using prop guns or any other kind of gun. The protocol mirrors almost exactly what the Propmasters' Union protocol says.

A main piece of the protocol is that the actor is supposed to receive the gun from an armorer or safety specialist, who has performed a thorough check of the gun in the actor's presence and the actor is supposed to perform the same check of the chambers (for safety's sake and in order to follow the ordinary rules of gun handling).

So, we shall see what a jury says about all this after the experts testify.

Furthermore, someone was in charge of hiring the various unsafe persons on this set, and it sure looks to me like Alec Baldwin is one of them. That too will need to be heard in the future legal battle, as there is no account given to MSM about who hired and short-staffed the armory segment of props (we only know that some very experienced armorer said he wouldn't do the job without two full time assistants, was refused, and so he therefore turned down the job). The AD had been fired from a previous set for improper handling of gun safety issues, and a gun that ought not to have fired on the set of Rust had already fired 3 times, which was one reason that workers were walking out.

One member of the crew shot herself in the foot with a blank. That ought not to have happened. Who was that person? Not the armorer, so why did she have a gun in her hand? Guns should be locked up when not in use in a scene and only 3 people should handle the gun (armorer, AD and actor).

 

[jjenny]

The person who shot herself in the foot was reportedly the propmaster. The experienced guy who turned it down was the propmaster (not an armorer). He wanted to have an armorer and another assistant (not a single person being an armorer/propmaster's assistant). Propmaster heads the prop department, an armorer works under propmaster. HGR was an armorer/propmaster's assistant. Another apparently young woman was a propmaster. So the propmaster reportedly shot herself in the foot.

 

[jjenny]

^^^”In addition to the $7,913 armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was to earn, producers also budgeted $7,469 for “armorer crew,” $17,500 for the rental of weapons and $5,000 for rounds”

I guess it depends on how much ammo was purchased but does $5,000 sound reasonable for dummies?

There is no way to tell, since we don't know how many dummies were purchased and what kind of dummies they were.

 

[Speculaytor]

I do think it is possible that the set was sabotaged, I will wait to hear all of the facts.

However, if HGR loaded that gun with a real bullet from a box labeled "Dummies", and did not check it to make sure, there is a problem. I understand she did not expect there to be live rounds on set, and whoever brought them is culpable too, IMOO. If there is no need to check bullets, there would be no need for an armorer. So, no matter what she expected, she should always expect a mistake, and double check. Unless she can prove someone else had access and motive, she is in trouble.

 

[steeltowngirl]

He's a member of Actors Equity Union or he wouldn't be working on big movies. They have standards and protocols, one of which is that there should be a safety meeting with the actors there on the morning of any shoot that will be using prop guns or any other kind of gun. The protocol mirrors almost exactly what the Propmasters' Union protocol says.

A main piece of the protocol is that the actor is supposed to receive the gun from an armorer or safety specialist, who has performed a thorough check of the gun in the actor's presence and the actor is supposed to perform the same check of the chambers (for safety's sake and in order to follow the ordinary rules of gun handling).

So, we shall see what a jury says about all this after the experts testify.

Furthermore, someone was in charge of hiring the various unsafe persons on this set, and it sure looks to me like Alec Baldwin is one of them. That too will need to be heard in the future legal battle, as there is no account given to MSM about who hired and short-staffed the armory segment of props (we only know that some very experienced armorer said he wouldn't do the job without two full time assistants, was refused, and so he therefore turned down the job). The AD had been fired from a previous set for improper handling of gun safety issues, and a gun that ought not to have fired on the set of Rust had already fired 3 times, which was one reason that workers were walking out.

One member of the crew shot herself in the foot with a blank. That ought not to have happened. Who was that person? Not the armorer, so why did she have a gun in her hand? Guns should be locked up when not in use in a scene and only 3 people should handle the gun (armorer, AD and actor).

Yeah, the entire Rust production team is in a world of doodoo. Mike Tristano is a well respected industry armourer, and he described AB as very safe, very professional. The victim and HGR’s attorneys will surely paint a different picture.

It will be interesting to learn which version of AB, and set safety, is accurate.

 

[Cryptic]

I guess it depends on how much ammo was purchased but does $5,000 sound reasonable for dummies?

$5,000 would not be reasonable for dummies alone as they are inert and can be used for years.

But....

$5,000 for a complete ammunition, "package" including dummies that are returned, blanks and possibly even live rounds (evidently never used on sets- except on the occasions when it is actually used) sounds realistic.

Though the director probably could have saved on the ammunition cost by shopping around, my guess is that they are not inclined to do so.

Instead, they probably use trusted suppliers from high cost LA and also accept that in Hollywood, everything from hot dogs to horse feed to blank ammunition is going to be marked up another notch.

 

[DI_Isokawa]

‘Rust’ Budget: Star, Producer and Armorer Fees Revealed – The Hollywood Reporter

"Be careful reading the financials of an industry whose main product is works of fiction." -- advice given to me by a CFO, many years ago.

 

[DI_Isokawa]

I do think it is possible that the set was sabotaged, I will wait to hear all of the facts.

However, if HGR loaded that gun with a real bullet from a box labeled "Dummies", and did not check it to make sure, there is a problem. I understand she did not expect there to be live rounds on set, and whoever brought them is culpable too, IMOO. If there is no need to check bullets, there would be no need for an armorer. So, no matter what she expected, she should always expect a mistake, and double check. Unless she can prove someone else had access and motive, she is in trouble.

Motive is the big issue. What would somebody hope to achieve by either a) loading a live round into the weapon or b) putting a live round into the box of dummy rounds? Any number of people had means and opportunity.

As far as HGR goes, the physical evidence is now hopelessly tainted (thanks to DH's reported order to unload the gun, and HGR complying) so a prosecution that survives the reasonable doubt test is hard to visualize. Civil liability is something else.

 

[Steelhead]

Sounds like HGR skipped out on the "Sabotage" course that was taught during her training.

 

[PoppyBear]

Really inappropriate, JMO, to try to get publicity from a terrible tragedy. She's not involved or connected in any way. Ugh.

JMO

There have been a few celebrities/actors who have come out and said things. I haven’t really got the impression they are using it for publicity, but they have all been individuals that I am not shocked to see discuss the topic. All seem to have always concerned themselves with gun safety.

For example, I doubt Matthew McConaughey is hoping for publicity. He doesn’t need it as he manages to get that on his own. I do think it struck a nerve with him though. I also hope more speak about it because if leaving the actor to rely on others when it comes to firearm safety, that is absurd. There is no reason an actor should not bother checking a weapon. Based on Angelina Jolie and Matthew McConaughey’s comments, it seems both were very careful with firearms and took personal responsibility. I would hope this is already the norm. If not, I bet it will be in the future.

 

[mickey2942]

Sounds like HGR skipped out on the "Sabotage" course that was taught during her training.

And pretty much everything else. Seems like.

But, this still does not get AB off the hook. He did not check the gun, he pointed it at a person and pulled the trigger. We still need to go back to that. There are plenty of safety issues that Alec Baldwin ignored.

 

[Luna20]

First they claimed from 11 to 1, now it's briefly?

Now it’s 5-10 minutes.

“Gutierrez-Reed's attorneys said on the "TODAY" show that guns were left unattended for two hours on the day of the shooting. Bowles later told NBC News that he and Gorence had been mistaken. After consulting Gutierrez-Reed again, he said they had been locked up in a safe during lunch and had only been left unattended for a total of five to 10 minutes”

'Rust' armorer's attorney suggests sabotage may have led to fatal on-set shooting

 

[jjenny]

Now it’s 5-10 minutes.

“Gutierrez-Reed's attorneys said on the "TODAY" show that guns were left unattended for two hours on the day of the shooting. Bowles later told NBC News that he and Gorence had been mistaken. After consulting Gutierrez-Reed again, he said they had been locked up in a safe during lunch and had only been left unattended for a total of five to 10 minutes”

'Rust' armorer's attorney suggests sabotage may have led to fatal on-set shooting

You'd think they would have consulted with her before giving interviews.
Of course she already told police that guns were locked up during lunch, and lying to police is not legal.

 

[Marysmith]

There is no way to tell, since we don't know how many dummies were purchased and what kind of dummies they were.

Shouldn’t there be documentation of all this? Like the exact kind and amount of ammunition’s used and how much money they were?

 

[jjenny]

Shouldn’t there be documentation of all this? Like the exact kind and amount of ammunition’s used and how much money they were?

I would think so.

 

[mickey2942]

HGR should get a new attorney, one that says "No Comment at this time of ongoing investigation".

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Now it’s 5-10 minutes.

“Gutierrez-Reed's attorneys said on the "TODAY" show that guns were left unattended for two hours on the day of the shooting. Bowles later told NBC News that he and Gorence had been mistaken. After consulting Gutierrez-Reed again, he said they had been locked up in a safe during lunch and had only been left unattended for a total of five to 10 minutes”

'Rust' armorer's attorney suggests sabotage may have led to fatal on-set shooting

Not sure why these lawyers are doing the rounds of the TV news. So far what I've heard has just made their clients look foolish or at the very least evasive. They seem to have a loose grasp on the facts too. DH's lawyer conjured up a phantom armourer's assistant and HGR's duo can't seem to decide when and for how long she left the guns and ammo unattended. But apparently it doesn’t matter anyway because saboteurs.

 

[10ofRods]

I do think it is possible that the set was sabotaged, I will wait to hear all of the facts.

However, if HGR loaded that gun with a real bullet from a box labeled "Dummies", and did not check it to make sure, there is a problem. I understand she did not expect there to be live rounds on set, and whoever brought them is culpable too, IMOO. If there is no need to check bullets, there would be no need for an armorer. So, no matter what she expected, she should always expect a mistake, and double check. Unless she can prove someone else had access and motive, she is in trouble.

I just don't understand how anyone could mistake a live round for a dummy. Maybe a live round for a blank (but seriously, that's also really obvious).

There is still a need for an armorer, as at least two actors have DIED from blanks (that should have been dummies). Blanks used to be much more common in the Shoot 'Em Up Westerns that filled our TV screens until the 70's. The crew member who shot her foot on the set of Rust (a real injury) fired a blank at her foot. Close up, blanks can blind someone (like the camera person). Since this scene supposedly involved Baldwin drawing the gun as he turned toward the camera and the camera is shown in rehearsal taking the shot from above and medium close-up, if HH had been shot in the face with a blank, she could have been blinded, and even if just in the chest or stomach, from that range, she would have likely required more than just first aid.

Blanks are no joke. Blanks are used in starter pistols and are the source of a few fatalities almost every year.

Fatal neck injuries caused by blank cartridges - ScienceDirect

Europe PMC

No one should *ever* fire a blank at something they aren't prepared to harm. Here is what 45mm blanks look like:

.45 Long Colt Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke

They are still a projectile.

How Do Blanks Work As Compared to Regular Bullets?

The cowboy actors of the Good Old Days did not fire directly at cameras with blanks, nor did they shoot at people with blanks. That's why there's so much clever editing and many shots of cowboys shooting at the Bad Guy from horseback (they're really shooting at rocks in a movie ranch...)

 

[Antimony]

"He’s an actor, not a trained safety specialist. As far as I know, he’s not an avid gun handler in real life." AB does, however, handle guns as a highly paid professional actor.

If Hanna checked the rounds in the box and the gun, What, exactly did she check for?

There were three (I think) guns on the cart. Is it possible that only one was checked and that one was mistakenly not chosen for the scene?

Any un-used ammo (blanks, squibs, dummies) left after production would have been taken by the Armorer and sold to the next production that needed supplies. Additional revenue stream. Firearms were no doubt rented from prop company.

 

[Luna20]

And pretty much everything else. Seems like.

But, this still does not get AB off the hook. He did not check the gun, he pointed it at a person and pulled the trigger. We still need to go back to that. There are plenty of safety issues that Alec Baldwin ignored.

I don’t know what the laws are for Santa Fe on this but when I researched info pertaining to firearm safety filming I found that there are laws stating that all personnel who will be handling guns are required to go through the process of safety procedures prior to rehearsal and filming.

The armorer meets with each person to get them familiar with how the gun will be used for the scene and with what ammo. Further stating that each person who handles the gun is required to identify what’s in it before using it and handing it over to the next person. And that the golden rule applies as law “never point a gun at anyone.”

I will see if I can find it but it ultimately depends on what the laws are there.