Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021

[MsMarple]

JMO AB is the actor and Producer for the movie and as such it seems like he bears a heavier burden for the actions of the crew. I don't know if he should be held accountable - LE will let us know soon enough - but there were two and possibly three prior incidents involving prop guns. Also, a half dozen camera crew walked off the set before the shooting because of poor and unsafe working conditions.

As a producer did Baldwin have any responsibility to stop and assess what was happening on the set? Legally? Morally? How will the production company's insurance agent view the possible warning signs (IMO) that all was not well with the crew?

I'm not throwing AB under the bus, I'm questioning what responsibilities each individual is bound by when working on a film. This group seemed to be anchorless, not working as a team. The AD clearly ignored the safety and well-being of those on the set. But apparently no one spoke up. MOO.

Live updates: 'Rust' movie shooting and Alec Baldwin
'Rust' camera crew left set in protest hours before Alec Baldwin fatal shooting, report says

 

[Gardenista]

The shooting left blood splattered over the Hollywood star, who changed out of the Western outfit he was wearing and into street clothing before talking to investigators, law enforcement documents released Sunday showed.

Alec Baldwin among those responsible for checking gun, ‘Rust’ crew member says

 

[IceIce9]

bbm

“Chief electrician recalls fatal shooting on Alec Baldwin film set: "I was holding her in my arms while she was dying"…

…“Jeffrey Wright, who has worked on projects including the James Bond franchise and the upcoming movie "The Batman," was acting with a weapon on the set of "Westworld" when news broke of the shooting Thursday at a New Mexico ranch. "We were all pretty shocked. And it informed what we did from that moment on," he said in an interview Sunday at the Newport Beach Film Festival.

"I don't recall ever being handed a weapon that was not cleared in front of me - meaning chamber open, barrel shown to me, light flashed inside the barrel to make sure that it's cleared," Wright said. "Clearly, that was a mismanaged set."

Actor Ray Liotta agreed with Wright that the checks on firearms are usually extensive.”
Chief electrician recalls details in Alec Baldwin shooting: "I was holding her in my arms while she was dying" - CBS News

I'm sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one - the department that was responsible for the weapons. There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I still think there are multiple failures prior to AB. One, there should NEVER be live rounds on a set - I mean ever. That is protocol. So, I think the buck starts with who brought a live round to set?? Next, there were at least 3 people who handled the gun prior to AB. A gun with a live round should NEVER have reached him. Chain of command is there for a reason - and one reason is safety!

Personally, I think the production company will be sued by the victim. They cut corners by rushing non-union (local) workers on to the set to replace the union workers. AB even commented that the workers should strike because they were being treated like $h1t. I am sorry, but this was a big failure by the production company.

I don’t dispute any of this but the ultimate responsibility is on the person who is holding the gun, gun safety 101, if you have not been shown the empty chamber, you look yourself. A string of failures/mismanagement did lead to her death but AB should have asked to be shown the gun was indeed unloaded.

 

[tara83]

I don’t dispute any of this but the ultimate responsibility is on the person who is holding the gun, gun safety 101, if you have not been shown the empty chamber, you look yourself. A string of failures/mismanagement did lead to her death but AB should have asked to be shown the gun was indeed unloaded.

Disagree.The one who is hired and tasked with the sole job of fire arm safety is at fault.

 

[IceIce9]

JMO AB is the actor and Producer for the movie and as such it seems like he bears a heavier burden for the actions of the crew. I don't know if he should be held accountable - LE will let us know soon enough - but there were two and possibly three prior incidents involving prop guns. Also, a half dozen camera crew walked off the set before the shooting because of poor and unsafe working conditions.

As a producer did Baldwin have any responsibility to stop and assess what was happening on the set? Legally? Morally? How will the production company's insurance agent view the possible warning signs (IMO) that all was not well with the crew?

I'm not throwing AB under the bus, I'm questioning what responsibilities each individual is bound by when working on a film. This group seemed to be anchorless, not working as a team. The AD clearly ignored the safety and well-being of those on the set. But apparently no one spoke up. MOO.

Live updates: 'Rust' movie shooting and Alec Baldwin
'Rust' camera crew left set in protest hours before Alec Baldwin fatal shooting, report says

There were several producers, Alec wasn’t the only producer.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Disagree.The one who is hired and tasked with the sole job of fire arm safety is at fault.

When he failed to show him it was empty, AB could/should have asked the proper protocol to be followed, i e open the gun and show him. I’m around guns every weekend, my husband is a professional sporting clays shooter, it has been drilled into me and our children that whoever has that gun in their hand has the ultimate responsibility. I understand what you are saying, on a movie set there’s procedures in place, someone hired for handling the guns but it seems to me proper protocol was not followed.

 

[MsMarple]

There were several producers, Alec wasn’t the only producer.

Yes, I understand: I was specifically asking about AB as actor and producer (Rust Movies Productions LLC). I suspect there may be civil suits in the future and multiple people may be named. MOO.

 

[ilovewings]

I don’t dispute any of this but the ultimate responsibility is on the person who is holding the gun, gun safety 101, if you have not been shown the empty chamber, you look yourself. A string of failures/mismanagement did lead to her death but AB should have asked to be shown the gun was indeed unloaded.

Could not disagree more- AB had the right to rely on those people whose job it is to make sure the gun was safe to use. He is the least liable, though he fired the shot. There is enough blame to go around and lawsuits will be filed against many people.

 

[DI_Isokawa]

One of the things people like the NTSB look at after an accident is the "safety culture" of the organizations involved. "Culture" is the operative word: behavior that is enforced by social pressure as well as formal structure. Someone telling someone else "Hey, we don't do that around here" irrespective of relative rank or status in the organization. Safety cultures come from the top and are communicated by example.

It is clear that there did not exist anything resembling a safety culture on that set. That, IMHO, is the root cause of the tragedy.

 

[WillieMac]

Disagree.The one who is hired and tasked with the sole job of fire arm safety is at fault.

I think it was stated in a linked article a few posts/pages ago that Armorer was NOT her sole job. Somehow this production also combined roles so that she was also tasked with a job of being an assistant to the prop master.

ETA: Quote from linked article:

According to emails and the call sheet, obtained by BuzzFeed News, the prop master had two assistants, one of whom was also the armorer. It was concerning, he said, that the film chose to combine those two roles into one. It compressed that person’s ability to “check the functioning guns, test them, and prepare them for use.” The call sheet also showed that most of the crew members were nonunion, meaning they were likely paid below the standard wage.

 

[shotgun09]

I think it was stated in a linked article a few posts/pages ago that Armorer was NOT her sole job. Somehow this production also combined roles so that she was also tasked with a job of being an assistant to the prop master.

Correct! Due to budget cuts, staff desertion, and time constraints.... A production nightmare!

 

[RANCH]

Souza told them Baldwin was "sitting in a pew in a church building setting, and he was practicing a cross draw," the affidavit said. A cross draw is when a shooter pulls the weapon from a holster on the opposite side of the body from the draw hand.

If Baldwin was practicing a cross draw he should have keep his finger off of the trigger while doing so IMO.

Another possible factor in why this tragedy happened. JMO.

Alec Baldwin shooting: Actor was practicing drawing gun when it discharged - CNN

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Could not disagree more- AB had the right to rely on those people whose job it is to make sure the gun was safe to use. He is the least liable, though he fired the shot. There is enough blame to go around and lawsuits will be filed against many people.

You lose that right when proper procedures are not followed and if you are not educated/have not been trained in gun safety to know that proper procedures are not being followed, the gun being opened and shown to be empty every time it is handed to you, then you should not be handing a firearm under any circumstances.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

One of the things people like the NTSB look at after an accident is the "safety culture" of the organizations involved. "Culture" is the operative word: behavior that is enforced by social pressure as well as formal structure. Someone telling someone else "Hey, we don't do that around here" irrespective of relative rank or status in the organization. Safety cultures come from the top and are communicated by example.

It is clear that there did not exist anything resembling a safety culture on that set. That, IMHO, is the root cause of the tragedy.

100%

 

[Datchery]

It seems to me that, like so many cases, this is not a fully black and white scenario. AB can have SOME responsibility, including civil liability, without being criminally culpable.

IANAL, but as far as I understand, liability requires negligence, whereas criminal manslaughter requires recklessness--an action that, while not intended to kill a person, was so far outside the bounds of reasonable conduct that the person knew or should have known that it came with foreseeable danger to life. The classic case would be someone behaving in a grossly irresponsible manner with what he knew to be a loaded gun--i.e, someone shoots at a deer running through a residential neighborhood, and accidentally hits his neighbor.

Baldwin's case is obviously grayer than this, at the very least. It sounds like, as an experienced actor and as a producer working on a project with firearms, he should have known that industry best practices mandated something other than what had happened--either he should have checked it or, if he wasn't capable or that was against protocol, he should have insisted that the AD open the gun in front of him. Hence, negligence. But given that there was a designated person OTHER THAN Alec Baldwin specifically responsibly for firearm safety on set, and that another person in authority had explicitly told him that the gun was cold--which, according to the rules, he shouldn't have said if he hadn't inspected it personally--I don't think it rises to the level of recklessness you would need for manslaughter.

The only way I could maybe see it is if the two or three previous gun mishaps on set had occurred in parallel circumstances, so that Baldwin should have known that the AD claiming that a gun was "cold" couldn't be relied on, and fired in the direction of Halyna anyway. Otherwise, I'm not sure anyone should be criminally charged here, and if someone should be, it shouldn't be Baldwin.

To me, either the armorer or the AD or both bear the brunt of the blame. Baldwin's culpability is much lower.

 

[Cryptic]

I'm not throwing AB under the bus, I'm questioning what responsibilities each individual is bound by when working on a film.

That is a very good approach.

I am thinking, however, that answers to your questions maybe incomplete and include a lot of "Usually- but not always" and "Should- but does not really need to- well...not always" type quantifiers.

At the end of the day, movie sets don't seem to operate like military firing ranges where everything is always done according to very set procedures and under a very clear chain of command regarding weapons.

Rather, sets seems to operate under varying definitions of what is, or is not fundamentally safe and also have varied rules regarding the use of weapons and who is permitted to handle them besides the armorer, and who can over ride who regarding weapons.

And of course, some set rules might be written down, others maybe customary or be derived from a "common understanding", and still others subject to change based on alot of factors.

 

[jjenny]

That is a very good approach.

I am thinking, however, that answers to your questions maybe incomplete and include a lot of "Usually- but not always" and "Should- but does not really need to- well...not always" type quantifiers.

At the end of the day, movie sets don't seem to operate like military firing ranges where everything is always done according to very set procedures and under a very clear chain of command regarding weapons.

Rather, sets seems to operate under varying definitions of what is, or is not fundamentally safe and also have varied rules regarding the use of weapons and who is permitted to handle them besides the armorer, and who can over ride who regarding weapons.

And of course, some set rules might be written down, others maybe customary or be derived from a "common understanding", and still others subject to change based on alot of factors.

Yep, we already had various crew members claiming different things of whom was ultimately responsible for checking the gun. The one who called 911 blamed assistant director for declaring it cold, apparently without checking it. Then I just read that another crew member claims that the armorer should have checked it and given it to Baldwin. And so on.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The shooting left blood splattered over the Hollywood star, who changed out of the Western outfit he was wearing and into street clothing before talking to investigators, law enforcement documents released Sunday showed.

Alec Baldwin among those responsible for checking gun, ‘Rust’ crew member says

From your bottom link: ‘A location manager for “Rust” says at least four people were responsible for checking the weapon that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins — including gun-firing star Alec Baldwin.

“A massive mistake was made,” Stacey Mickey-Evans told Australia’s 92.5 Triple M Gold Coast.’

 

[jjenny]

If Baldwin was practicing a cross draw he should have keep his finger off of the trigger while doing so IMO.

Another possible factor in why this tragedy happened. JMO.

Alec Baldwin shooting: Actor was practicing drawing gun when it discharged - CNN

He was told the gun was empty. They were rehearsing the scene where presumably he was going to take a shot in the direction of the camera after he drew the gun.