All About Chloroform#2

[jnTexas]

I do not know anything about chloroform. If I understand correctly breathing it in will cause you to pass out. if this is true, and they found a significant amount in the trunk wouldn't every person who opened or went near the trunk pass out?? I have heard about LA standing in the garage and the trunk was open when CA got back after getting KC from TonE's. So I just don't understnad the chloroform.

 

[Jolynna]

Judge Jean Pirro is saying Caylee's hair was filled with chloroform. Which, if true, means Casey used it purposefully.

http://www.judgejp.com/jeanines_journal/caylee_anthony_casey_anthony_a.php

People want this to be an accident...but if there were *pre-Caylee-going-missing* online searches for missing children and then chloroform saturated trunk air PLUS chloroform showing up in Caylee's hair, it seems to me, this points to premeditated and deliberate homicide.

 

[Bev]

Judge Pirro would have no way of knowing that the hair was saturated with anything unless she had access to the written reports.

 

[Pink Panther]

Judge Pirro would have no way of knowing that the hair was saturated with anything unless she had access to the written reports.

I've got to agree with you on this one...I thought the same thing.

 

[Balthazar]

This seems to be eluding some posters - chloroform is a gas created from chlorine, bromines and methane/ethanol (alcohol)/acetone (nail polish remover). It is made by heating those gases together.

There is no such thing as "pure chloroform" because chloroform is a combination of gases, it is not in and of itself a gas such as hydrogen or methane. The gas chromotography/spectrometer measures the levels or saturation of the air with gases. Chloroform is correctly identified as trichloromethane and methyl trichloride, it is also a in a subset known as trihalomethanes which is a by product of chlorinated water. It is produced by heating a mixture of chlorine and methane in which a series of chemical reactions occur and then distilled out to form trichloromethane.

Manufacturers use chlorine bleach powder and methane - now where would you find high concentrations of chlorine bleach powder? Pool chemicals. Where would you find a high concentration of methane? Decaying bodies. Combined and heated in a trunk in Fl. in June/July the air sample could give the false/positive that chloroform was used.

I am not saying that KC did not use chloroform, I am saying that there is a likelier explanation for the presence of chloromethane in the trunk of that car.

Actually, just after the finding of chloroform was announced Nancy Grace had an expert on to talk about this and he said that the finding was at such a high level that it COULD NOT have come from pool chemicals. You can make chloroform from pool chemicals, but it is substantially weaker than what was detected. Then we found out Casey (or someone) had been searching for chloroform on her computer. It's easy enough to buy online with a credit card. Cindy doesn't want to give her credit card statement to police.

An overdose of chloroform can lead to a seizure. JG took Casey to the hospital for a heretofore unexplained seizure late last year. Cindy doesn't want to release Casey's medical records to police. She told them she checked and there is nothing on them in her taped interview. Now why would she not want to release medical records?

To me, it seems likely that there is something incriminating on the credit card statement and the medical records.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Bev, you sound like you really know this subject, are you a chemist of some sort?

 

[BondJamesBond]

This seems to be eluding some posters - chloroform is a gas created from chlorine, bromines and methane/ethanol (alcohol)/acetone (nail polish remover). It is made by heating those gases together.

There is no such thing as "pure chloroform" because chloroform is a combination of gases, it is not in and of itself a gas such as hydrogen or methane. The gas chromotography/spectrometer measures the levels or saturation of the air with gases. Chloroform is correctly identified as trichloromethane and methyl trichloride, it is also a in a subset known as trihalomethanes which is a by product of chlorinated water. It is produced by heating a mixture of chlorine and methane in which a series of chemical reactions occur and then distilled out to form trichloromethane.

Manufacturers use chlorine bleach powder and methane - now where would you find high concentrations of chlorine bleach powder? Pool chemicals. Where would you find a high concentration of methane? Decaying bodies. Combined and heated in a trunk in Fl. in June/July the air sample could give the false/positive that chloroform was used.

I am not saying that KC did not use chloroform, I am saying that there is a likelier explanation for the presence of chloromethane in the trunk of that car.

Bev - thanks for posting. I've been waitin' for you Bold by me.

Some talking head expert on NG suggested that the chloroform present could not be confused with that which had been coincidentally produced. IIRC, he characterized it as "vaporized". I took that to mean the assay of the chloroform measured was closer to reagent grade, and not containing the impurities it would pre-distillation.

That was my interpretation of what the expert was suggesting, and it was also implied that he had direct access to the GC results. I dunno if I buy it or not. Just FWIW.

Still...I do like the pool chemical thought. I noodled a little on Casey using the Rubermaid container for temporary body storage, and it likely contained the pool chemicals. I checked on the container and it is not leak-proof (seams in the sides & bottom) which might explain some decomp fluid making its way into the soil in that area where the cadaver dogs hit.

Thanks again for posting. Look forward to more!

 

[Bev]

An overdose of chloroform would most likely kill you. Secondly, how do we know that JG took KC to the hospital for a seizure? I would wait on that until records were produced. Thirdly, we don't know what gases were detected in the car trunk. Fourthly, there is no possible way for KC to make "chloroform" (she wouldn't have the knowledge or the equipment) and I didn't say that she made it - I said that the gases which make trichloromethane were most likely the gases detected in the air sample and that there was a far likelier explanation for them being in the trunk. Chloroform is chlorine bleach powder and methane/alcohol/acetone heated and then distilled. Nancy Grace can have many experts who make this claim, but the defense will have just as many who will say those experts are wrong.

Cindy has no say whatsoever as to whether KC's medical records are made available to the police. That's a matter of a search warrant just as CA's credit account records are - the LE doesn't need permission from KC or CA - all they have to do is prove to a judge that they are relevant to the investigation and obtain a search warrant.

Yes, KC could have purchased chloroform, but again, I believe that the simpler explanation is the more likely explanation. - Posted before I saw BJB's response. My feeling on this is until we see the gas chromo/spect report, we really won't know. It is dependent on the type of testing used. An air sample is going to measure the saturation of the ambient air by the gases present. I would imagine that what they found in initial testing was trichloromethane among other gases - we still though, don't have the results of the liquids testing which would certainly confirm that it is chlorof.

As to the plastic container theory, I wouldn't discount it and plastic can become saturated with gases too and stink quite badly. I think that she might have buried her in a plastic garbage bag or duffle bag in the yard where she could keep an eye on it. It's fairly obvious that the only reason she was caught is because her mother surprised her.

 

[deerpack2003]

Chloroform is not a drug that would be commonly abused. It is too dangerous a drug.

However that does not mean she didn't try to ingest it as an abused substance.

 

[Jolynna]

Judge Pirro would have no way of knowing that the hair was saturated with anything unless she had access to the written reports.

That is why I said IF true.

I assume Jean Pirro has talked to people who do have access to written reports. I know every kind of analysis and test that can be performed on Caylee's hair has been done. WE probably won't know for sure if what Jean P. said is true until the trial.

BUT, IF Jean P.'s source is accurate, there is only one way Caylee could have gotten chloroform in her hair. THAT the GJ indicted on a 1st degree murder charge says to me there WAS definite evidence the homicide was premeditated. My theory is and has always been that Casey searched for and got the chloroform will ill intent toward Caylee.

If the chloroform searches were done during the same sessions as the searches for missing children, that is also a clue of where Casey's mind was before her daughter went "missing".

IMO

 

[Chilly Willy]

An overdose of chloroform would most likely kill you. Secondly, how do we know that JG took KC to the hospital for a seizure? I would wait on that until records were produced. Thirdly, we don't know what gases were detected in the car trunk. Fourthly, there is no possible way for KC to make "chloroform" (she wouldn't have the knowledge or the equipment) and I didn't say that she made it - I said that the gases which make trichloromethane were most likely the gases detected in the air sample and that there was a far likelier explanation for them being in the trunk. Chloroform is chlorine bleach powder and methane/alcohol/acetone heated and then distilled. Nancy Grace can have many experts who make this claim, but the defense will have just as many who will say those experts are wrong.

Cindy has no say whatsoever as to whether KC's medical records are made available to the police. That's a matter of a search warrant just as CA's credit account records are - the LE doesn't need permission from KC or CA - all they have to do is prove to a judge that they are relevant to the investigation and obtain a search warrant.

Yes, KC could have purchased chloroform, but again, I believe that the simpler explanation is the more likely explanation.

The way the chloroform information has been presented by LE leads a person to believe that they are using the presense of chloroform vapors in the trunk, along with the internet searches, to show premeditation. Wouldn't the testing lab inform them that chloroform could have formed from an accidental chemical reaction?

 

[Lanie]

My #1 theory on the chloroform is Casey stumbled upon it somewhere, took it, and then searched online to find out what she could do with it.
I'm not blaming the tattoo place, just saying, for example, she might have seen it there and stolen it. (I read online some people will use chloroform when getting a tattoo.) Since it's an illegal substance, I doubt, if my theory is correct, anyone is going to be coming forward to report missing chloroform.
Lanie

 

[Bev]

You know, Chilly Willy ("more pancakes, more syrup?") it could well be chloroform I don't know if it is or not. We just will not know until the written report and my guess is that a written report will not be issued for some time to keep it out of the defense's hands for just this reason - experts are going to dispute these findings in the same manner that I did. Now, this is going to be hard to do because I understand that the "Body Farm" has a state of the art gas chromatography/mass spectrometer which is considered the best in forensics.

My point however, is that we really don't know what was detected and there are far simpler more likely explanations. I'm not arguing that chlorof. was not used, it may well have been - I just don't find it likely considering KC, her money situation, the shipping of chlorof. etc. I also know how "sources close to the investigation" operates - it could be anyone who fed the press that information and that info could have been someone adding 1 and 1 and coming up with 3.

 

[Chilly Willy]

You know, Chilly Willy ("more pancakes, more syrup?") it could well be chloroform I don't know if it is or not. We just will not know until the written report and my guess is that a written report will not be issued for some time to keep it out of the defense's hands for just this reason - experts are going to dispute these findings in the same manner that I did. Now, this is going to be hard to do because I understand that the "Body Farm" has a state of the art gas chromatography/mass spectrometer which is considered the best in forensics.

My point however, is that we really don't know what was detected and there are far simpler more likely explanations. I'm not arguing that chlorof. was not used, it may well have been - I just don't find it likely considering KC, her money situation, the shipping of chlorof. etc. I also know how "sources close to the investigation" operates - it could be anyone who fed the press that information and that info could have been someone adding 1 and 1 and coming up with 3.

I definitely agree with you about the sources - originally it was reported that traces of chloroform were found in the trunk. By the time Nancy Grace got hold of the story the trunk was saturated. Same thing with the 'death bands' on the hair. Not one member of LE has stated that Caylee's hair had death bands, yet Nancy reports it as fact almost every night.

They really make things difficult for us detective wannabees. How are we supposed to solve the case when we don't get accurate information :waitasec:

More pancakes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjRACCuh3vc

 

[passionflower]

Just a thought, several people said that chloraform makes sinus problems = 'snothead'??
KC called her baby that........runny nose all the time due to wacko mom?

 

[okiedokietoo]

if KC had been using chloroform to knock Caylee out, on a regular basis, the chloroform could have accumulated in the trunk and the last time she knocked her out there was so much chloroform in the trunk, at the bottom of the trunk where Caylee would have been that this could have killed her

Chloroform is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas.
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache...orm+heavier+than+air&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

 

[BondJamesBond]

Cindy has no say whatsoever as to whether KC's medical records are made available to the police. That's a matter of a search warrant just as CA's credit account records are - the LE doesn't need permission from KC or CA - all they have to do is prove to a judge that they are relevant to the investigation and obtain a search warrant.

Yes, KC could have purchased chloroform, but again, I believe that the simpler explanation is the more likely explanation. - Posted before I saw BJB's response. My feeling on this is until we see the gas chromo/spect report, we really won't know. It is dependent on the type of testing used. An air sample is going to measure the saturation of the ambient air by the gases present. I would imagine that what they found in initial testing was trichloromethane among other gases - we still though, don't have the results of the liquids testing which would certainly confirm that it is chlorof.

As to the plastic container theory, I wouldn't discount it and plastic can become saturated with gases too and stink quite badly. I think that she might have buried her in a plastic garbage bag or duffle bag in the yard where she could keep an eye on it. It's fairly obvious that the only reason she was caught is because her mother surprised her.

*snipped*

Enjoying your posts, Bev.

Some random thoughts/comments:

1) I found it interesting that one of Casey's friends having recently served in the military casually mentioned that they commonly use chloroform to subdue unruly prisoners. Subsequent posters w/ military background commented on items leaving base, eh, unauthorized, quite frequently FWIW. Another in her circle posted a satirical pic on his myspace suggesting the use of chloroform to sedate your date.

2) In addition to considering a chloroform connection to Casey's seizure, Amy experienced an episode of waking up in different pants than she went to sleep in at approx. the same time $400 in cash disappeared and Casey was sleeping over.

c) IIRC, reading general info...dosage in the neighborhood of 4 drops is sufficient to sedate an adult.

d) Noodling on the scenario that Casey obtained chloroform w/ ill-intent and had 'excess' to dispose of after-the-fact, w/ a s.g. of ~1.5, if she dumped it down a drain at the house there would likely still be trace evidence in a p-trap, eh? If she poured it/spilled it in the yard by the pool in the process of staging the scene, perhaps that was the compelling reason for digging up some soil vs. temporary burial. Shovel may have had 2 purposes 6/18. Move the body from the trunk into plastic bags w/o touching it, and, digging up some soil to get rid of evidence. Trace of chloroform on the shovel would be telling.

Just some rambling thoughts.

 

[ShadowGal]

*snipped*

Enjoying your posts, Bev.

Some random thoughts/comments:

1) I found it interesting that one of Casey's friends having recently served in the military casually mentioned that they commonly use chloroform to subdue unruly prisoners. Subsequent posters w/ military background commented on items leaving base, eh, unauthorized, quite frequently FWIW. Another in her circle posted a satirical pic on his myspace suggesting the use of chloroform to sedate your date.

2) In addition to considering a chloroform connection to Casey's seizure, Amy experienced an episode of waking up in different pants than she went to sleep in at approx. the same time $400 in cash disappeared and Casey was sleeping over.

c) IIRC, reading general info...dosage in the neighborhood of 4 drops is sufficient to sedate an adult.

d) Noodling on the scenario that Casey obtained chloroform w/ ill-intent and had 'excess' to dispose of after-the-fact, w/ a s.g. of ~1.5, if she dumped it down a drain at the house there would likely still be trace evidence in a p-trap, eh? If she poured it/spilled it in the yard by the pool in the process of staging the scene, perhaps that was the compelling reason for digging up some soil vs. temporary burial. Shovel may have had 2 purposes 6/18. Move the body from the trunk into plastic bags w/o touching it, and, digging up some soil to get rid of evidence. Trace of chloroform on the shovel would be telling.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Wow. Your Amy thoughts....been wondering too about that. In fact, this whole post is awfully logical. Somoene on the unnamed dream site actually spoke of testing the drains also...said something about 'she poured the drugs down the drain.' Eerie. I hope they've checked this scenario.

 

[MarkN]

This seems to be eluding some posters - chloroform is a gas created from chlorine, bromines and methane/ethanol (alcohol)/acetone (nail polish remover). It is made by heating those gases together.

There is no such thing as "pure chloroform" because chloroform is a combination of gases, it is not in and of itself a gas such as hydrogen or methane.

I disagree. According to the Wikipedia, chloroform really is a chemical compound, not just a mixture of three other gases. The chemical formula of chloroform is CHCl3.

Here is the molecular structure of chloroform:

As you can see from the above molecular structure, chloroform is definitely a single chemical compound, not a mixture of three other substances.

Here is the link to the Wikipedia article about Chloroform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform

Mark

 

[Bev]

BJB, as I said, she may well have used chloroform, but it is still imo, a fairly complicated explanation for something I believe has a likelier explanation.

1. She has no money. It would have to be purchased on a credit card and shipped to a familiar address where she would have to sign for it. It is a hazmat shipment which has all kinds of rules and regulations for shipping. It would be the easiest part of the investigation to prove because there are few companies that will ship a very small amount and those companies will have records of a purchase like that and where it was shipped.
2. I simply cannot believe without proof that KC had any kind of seizure because the source of that would have been KC to CA. I don't believe anything that either of them say and won't until there is verification.
3. The military doesn't use chloroform as a sedative. It is a carcinogen, it is no longer used anywhere in the United States as a anesthetic because it can cause sudden fatal arrthymia, in fact, it was in use in the U.S. for only a very short time in the early 20th C.
4. Ricardo M. supposedly had the ad on his fb page (although I don't know that to be a fact) and KC could well have clicked on that ad and was taken to the site. Thus the rumours that she was "looking up chlorof."
5. I don't know if there is any connection between Amy H., KC and chlorof. It wouldn't make any sense if KC drugged Amy H. and then changed her pajama pants. What would that have to do with chlorof.? It wouldn't surprise me that KC stole her money, but chlorof. her and changing her pajamas is far fetched and doesn't make sense.
6. 1 or 2 drops can sedate an adult - the dosage is dependent on the manner of conveyence. 1 or 2 drops on a cloth that is held directly to the mouth and nose will cause a quicker reaction to the drug. When it was in use as an anesthetic, it was conveyed by a mask upon which it would be administered drop by drop until the patient loss consciousness. As the chlorof. vapourized the vapours would be breathed in by the patient.
7. While LE could look in drain traps at the Anthony home, I doubt that it would prove anything because chloroform - trihalomethane - is a naturally occuring by product of chlorinated water. They will not only find it in the Anthonys' drain traps, they will also find it in the next door neighbor's drain traps. It is an environmental pollutant and is found just about everywhere. Yes, there could well be higher levels present, but any expert can knock that down in a heartbeat by explaining that water treatment plants use different levels of chlorine depending on the densities of bacteria in the water.

Once again, let me reiterate that I am not arguing against her using chlorof., I am presenting a more likely explanation for the presence of trichlormethane in the trunk. I have no idea what she did to that baby, except to say that in all likelihood she did something - the baby was last seen at 12:50 pm by GA (if he is to be believed) with KC, no nanny exists, the apt. had been empty for a significant amount of time and the next time someone saw KC that evening she had no child with her - and no one ever saw the child again.

To Mark - of course saying it is a mixture of three gases is simplistic - and of course it is a mixture of three gases - calcium hypochlorite, bromines and methane. I didn't at any time say that chlorof. wasn't a chemical compound with formula CHCI3 - it is the action of chlorine bleach powder upon ethanol/methane. If you can explain it better, please do. What I am trying to demonstate is that there is another explanation for the presence of tricholomethane in the trunk of that car than the application of chloroform to the baby.