All About Chloroform #3

[Peliman]

Dr. Vass was very specific when he said it was "manufactured chloroform." The difference is that chloroform can be manufactured, or can occur naturally when a chlorine molecule (C12) reacts with an organic substance such as humic or fulvic acids.

http://oehha.ca.gov/air/toxic_contaminants/html/Chloroform.htm

Dr. Vass said that the source in the trunk was not the naturally occurring type.

I picked up on this part of his testimony also and you're right on both accounts. I think this is important testimony regarding this trial. I may have to go back and listen to the components analysis found which show the chloroform was the manufactured type and not naturally occurring.

I think it all bears worth repeating.

 

[Hot Dogs]

It's easy to overstate the significance of the chloroform found in the Disney bag stuff just by mentioning that it was found at all.

Chemist Calls Amount Of Chloroform 'Insignificant'

But a closer look the FBI laboratory test results on the liquid reveals the level of chloroform in the liquid constitutes only about 12 parts per billion. By comparison, drinking water can contain up to 80 parts per billion of chloroform and its chemical cousins and still pass the Environmental Protection Agency standards for chlorinated drinking water.

Neither prosecutors nor defense attorneys would comment on the findings, but Local 6 took them to an independent chemist who said the presence of chloroform at that level was not significant.

 

[Peliman]

It's easy to overstate the significance of the chloroform found in the Disney bag stuff just by mentioning that it was found at all.

Chemist Calls Amount Of Chloroform 'Insignificant'

The Chloroform Dr. Vass testified to was from a different sample than a disney bag. Dr. Vass testified to a sample of the stained carpet found in the trunk of the car and sent in a sealed/airtight container. Unlike the FBI sample which was send in an unsealed/non-airtight box. Since chloroform dissipates, by the time it was tested by the FBI, it was almost gone and the chemist was surprised to find any at all.

<If I'm remembering the testimony correctly>

 

[Hot Dogs]

The Chloroform Dr. Vass testified to was from a different sample than a disney bag. Dr. Vass testified to a sample of the stained carpet found in the trunk of the car and sent in a sealed/airtight container. Unlike the FBI sample which was send in an unsealed/non-airtight box. Since chloroform dissipates, by the time it was tested by the FBI, it was almost gone and the chemist was surprised to find any at all.

<If I'm remembering the testimony correctly>

Right. But as you can see, my post was strictly concerning the World of Disney bag stuff and had nothing to do with the Pontiac trunk.

 

[Harmony 2]

This is the information in the docs from Vass about manufactured chloroform..

There is no information backing up that Casey had a drug addiction.. No information about withdrawals at the jail when she was arrested, so that concept is just pure speculation..

 

[Hot Dogs]

They were talking about ppm not drops. This wouldn't be visible to the human eye

My question is about how much liquid chloroform put into the trunk would be sufficient to arrive at the air sample concentration that was found. I'm not sure that we have that kind of answer, or if such an answer can even be given.

I don't even have a ballpark figure.

For example:

Maybe 1/1000th of a drop of liquid chloroform would be all that is necessary to result in the concentration found.

Maybe a pint of this liquid poured into the trunk is necessary to reach the found concentration.

Those are two different extremes, but I don't even have a handle on it to know if either is accurate or not.

 

[Peliman]

This is the information in the docs from Vass about manufactured chloroform..

There is no information backing up that Casey had a drug addiction.. No information about withdrawals at the jail when she was arrested, so that concept is just pure speculation..

Thanks, I'm not saying Casey had a drug problem, only that Chloroform was present. I'll have to bend at the 5.5 acidic environment and say the results are inconclusive. That's not to say IMO Caylee wasn't murdered and I believe it was duct tape. I don't believe it's necessary to prove by scientific means how she murdered her, one just needs believe she did and that's where I fall.

 

[Harmony 2]

Thanks, I'm not saying Casey had a drug problem, only that Chloroform was present. I'll have to bend at the 5.5 acidic environment and say the results are inconclusive. That's not to say IMO Caylee wasn't murdered and I believe it was duct tape. I don't believe it's necessary to prove by scientific means how she murdered her, one just needs believe she did and that's where I fall.

responding to BBM...My statement about speculated drug addiction was a general statement. It was not directed at you Peliman... I am sorry if it appeared that way..

 

[Peliman]

responding to BBM...My statement about speculated drug addiction was a general statement. It was not directed at you Peliman... I am sorry if it appeared that way..

No apology needed Harmony, I'm glad to have a spirited debate over evidence and beliefs. It's how we get to truth. :rose:

 

[chicklet]

Ok , I get it now. Chloroform is used to make heroin.
Sorry, never heard of it.

It's used to separate the different substances included in multi-substance opiates. Some have tylenol or other things that can cause overdose if too much is taken. In order to get a more "pure" drug to inject, hardcore addicts will often play chemist and make their own heroin.

That gatorade bottle and syringe being present in the trunk is a major piece of evidence.

 

[Hot Dogs]

That gatorade bottle and syringe being present in the trunk is a major piece of evidence.

These weren't found in the Pontiac trunk. They were in the woods near the remains.

I think it's safe to presume that the reason why the state has not featured these things in their case is because they consider them unrelated or useless pieces of evidence.

 

[GeekyGirl]

It's used to separate the different substances included in multi-substance opiates. Some have tylenol or other things that can cause overdose if too much is taken. In order to get a more "pure" drug to inject, hardcore addicts will often play chemist and make their own heroin.

That gatorade bottle and syringe being present in the trunk is a major piece of evidence.

Was it in the trunk? I thought it was found near the body... Could totally be wrong though.

 

[chicklet]

So you are proposing some one else involved? You are right; there is a huge bias here. Personally I just can't come up with ANY scenerio that KC could say that would explain all the facts this trial has shown. What you have said here is intriguing; didn't know that before. Oxycontin use is rampid from what I have read; I wonder if it fits in this too.
We know that Caylee is dead, we know that Casey was the last person with her, we know that Casey has lied and fantaisied several different stories. I just wish we could extract the truth somehow from her but doubt she will ever tell what really happened. I've wondered before if Caylee wasn't being "used" somehow when she was off to the "nannys". The question of GA abusing KC raised my hinky meter; sure hope I'm way off on that one. There is no way of knowing since only bones were left and I doubt KC will ever tell.
Thanks for another view!

KC's behavior (lying, promiscuity, stealing, inappropriate affect/emotional reactions, looking "blank" and unfeeling) are actually pretty typical for incest survivors. Sexual abuse in and of itself leaves deep scars...but when it is incest there are more issues at play. Sometimes the victim of incest believes that they are a "special" case and that their abuser won't touch anyone else. The family relationship can become deeply enmeshed with the sexual abuse.
No one should rule the defense out. They haven't even started yet and I think there are going to be a few bombshells that will blindside the prosecution. I do believe there was incest in the family. I found GA's testimony to be very dishonest. In fact, CA was the only one in the family who I felt was being honest.

 

[chicklet]

Was it in the trunk? I thought it was found near the body... Could totally be wrong though.

I was assuming that it was found with the trash in the trunk, but I could very well be wrong, so if you have heard it was found with Caylee's body then that is probably where it was found.

 

[Uicipher]

My question is about how much liquid chloroform put into the trunk would be sufficient to arrive at the air sample concentration that was found. I'm not sure that we have that kind of answer, or if such an answer can even be given.

I don't even have a ballpark figure.

For example:

Maybe 1/1000th of a drop of liquid chloroform would be all that is necessary to result in the concentration found.

Maybe a pint of this liquid poured into the trunk is necessary to reach the found concentration.

Those are two different extremes, but I don't even have a handle on it to know if either is accurate or not.

1/1000th of a drop would be a good "ball park" estimate +- a factor of 10. If someone can tell me the background level of chloroform expected for decomp and what level was found I could give you an (nearly) exact number. The reason I am saying that 1/1000th of a drop is what I would expect is that 1: Chloroform is a very volatile liquid and the trunk was aired out. and 2: The state is talking about parts per million, not milliliters.
Hope that clarifies.

 

[Hot Dogs]

1/1000th of a drop would be a good "ball park" estimate +- a factor of 10. If someone can tell me the background level of chloroform expected for decomp and what level was found I could give you an (nearly) exact number. The reason I am saying that 1/1000th of a drop is what I would expect is that 1: Chloroform is a very volatile liquid and the trunk was aired out. and 2: The state is talking about parts per million, not milliliters.
Hope that clarifies.

I'm trying to get a sense for the possibility of transfer of chloroform which ends up in the trunk. If chloroform was used as a recreational drug (even once) could it somehow make its way to the trunk on clothing or other items? It's probably administered with a napkin or other small cloth. If that brushes clothing and then the clothing goes into the trunk could you get a transfer that accounts for the concentration found in the trunk? What about a trash bag that contains a chloroformed napkin? As the chloroform evaporates from any item and becomes gaseous does it begin to saturate the carpeting in the trunk?

I'm wondering if you can get these levels without actually having a container of liquid chloroform inside or even nearby the trunk. That's why I asked if you'd have to literally pour or spill the stuff into the trunk.

 

[Uicipher]

I'm wondering if you can get these levels without actually having a container of liquid chloroform inside or even nearby the trunk. That's why I asked if you'd have to literally pour or spill the stuff into the trunk.

Those are all great questions. Unfortunately don't think it's possible to get an answer because 1: we don't know when the chloroform entered the trunk, 2: we don't know how it was contained, 3: to many variables (wind flow through the trunk, how long the trunk aired out, did Casey try to air it out herself, etc).

P.S cool sig!

 

[ZsaZsa]

I was assuming that it was found with the trash in the trunk, but I could very well be wrong, so if you have heard it was found with Caylee's body then that is probably where it was found.

It was found in the same vicinity of the wasteland where Caylee was found , not with her body, and has not yet been directly connected as far as I know...

 

[cecybeans]

It was found in the same vicinity of the wasteland where Caylee was found , not with her body, and has not yet been directly connected as far as I know...

True, ZZ - IIRC, folks here determined that any chloroform found in the bottle was of less concentration than what appears in drinking water, and it would probably be of no evidentiary value despite the early media attention. I think traces of steroids were found as well. Wasn't the bottle in a Disney bag near the remains? Some people conjectured she may have tried to return to the scene at a later time and set up either JG or GA (or maybe she didn't return at all and one of the many nefarious types employed by the DT did, we'll probably never know). That place was a known dumping ground for all kinds of trash. Didn't they also find a bullet casing in the area as well?

 

[RANCH]

True, ZZ - IIRC, folks here determined that any chloroform found in the bottle was of less concentration than what appears in drinking water, and it would probably be of no evidentiary value despite the early media attention. I think traces of steroids were found as well. Wasn't the bottle in a Disney bag near the remains? Some people conjectured she may have tried to return to the scene at a later time and set up either JG or GA (or maybe she didn't return at all and one of the many nefarious types employed by the DT did, we'll probably never know). That place was a known dumping ground for all kinds of trash. Didn't they also find a bullet casing in the area as well?

Good post cecybeans. If you try to tie all the things found in the area to the crime,then that "bullet casing" must mean someone was shot.Nobody so far has said that.