Allison Baden-Clay, GENERAL CASE DISCUSSION THREAD -#31

[alicat]

Will we ever get to see the Affidavits? Will it be after Monday, or after the trial? Thanks.

 

[ActusReus]

I was in a work meeting today yabbering away and at the end said just my opinion. My boss looked quite impressed my workmates smirked. x

I put IMO at the end of an email by accident.......lucky it wasn't MOO!

 

[Flinders]

Bit irrelevant, but pastor Ian looks like he would fit in well with the Baden-clay boys brigade...
http://www.northreach.org.au/about-us/whos-on-the-team
'ooooh, Betty, put that out in the morning'. Lucky he has god on his side

Maybe more irrelevant but he studied for his Masters in Canada.

 

[Flinders]

We know she had a chipped tooth. If that were caused by a blow with something hard (unlikely to be a fist) then I'm a bit surprised that there was no split lip as well.

If a blow to the front of the face caused a nosebleed, they can be the source of quite a deal of blood, and would be consistent with those photos of the Luminol tests in the car. Just one possibility. No external cut or wound, but plenty of blood.

But - another question comes to mind.... if the blood was enough to contaminate the back of the car and show up on the Luminol test - then WHERE was the injury (whatever it was) caused? I would have thought that a decent nose bleed, for example, would cause even more blood at the original site of the attack, and that no matter how carefully the clean up job was carried out, this too would show up on a Luminol test.

So, thinking logically, if that really was Allison's blood in the back of the car, then there almost certainly would have to be more of the same at the actual attack site, plus possibly drips etc if the body was carried to the car.

Of course, the other possibility is that the attack was somewhere very close to the car - maybe a blow to the face to get her into the car - alive (conscious or otherwise) then driven to either Kholo Creek, or the scout camp at Tyamolum, where she died by whatever cause was determined by the autopsy - assuming they DID find a cause.

Still a lot of unknowns - let's hope the police have a lot more knowns....

Correct me if I am wrong however from memory, you mentioned on an earlier thread that shortly after death a body can emit blood from certain orafaces? Marly may help me with that link.

 

[ActusReus]

Just a question for those legal minds out there. If a person is convicted and sentenced of a crime, what are the possibilities re appeal?

i.e. if verdict appealed, and original verdict upheld, I'd assume the sentence would remain the same.
BUT
if sentence is appealed, there is the possibility that the sentence could be decreased OR increased?

Is this correct - just thinking ahead - if GBC is found guilty and sentenced, and he chooses to appeal, is there a risk involved, particularly in relation to the sentence?

Appeals against conviction and sentence must be made separately, however can be heard at the same time. If the appellant only appeals the conviction then the court of appeal will not alter the sentence.

It is not uncommon for the verdict to be upheld but the sentence increased or decreased depending on the grounds for appeal.

Have a look at the published cases in the various Courts of Criminal Appeal. For anyone interested in the application of the law they make fascinating reading.

 

[Woof]

'Taking the fifth': The case against alleged wife-killer Gerard Baden-Clay
June 27, 2012.


April 21, 2012

Mr Baden-Clay voluntarily attended the Indooroopilly Police Station with his lawyers and voluntarily provided a DNA sample and allowed police to take photos of his body.

Scratches and abrasions on his chest, torso and neck were photographed.

April 22, 2012

Mr Baden-Clay was involved in an accident on the way to Indooroopilly police station. Police allege there no brake marks at the scene and Mr Baden-Clay refused to answer questions about the crash.

They allege the crash was staged to "mask injuries or to cause self-injury".

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1zq5sMNCt

The affadavit read that he was told to come back for a secondary test on the 22nd, and on the way there had the accident.

 

[Woof]

Totally agree. I think Olivia would have known the chances of bail for murder were not good so I cant see that you would be shocked. But her look to me was one of being stunned as if learning something totally unexpected - I've seen the same expression, unfortunately, on people who have lost their job unexpectedly. To me her expression says totally blindsided. I suspect learning about the google searches, insurance phone calls and facetime call were the cause of this.

I'm curious about Monday. If it were my brother and I heard all that read out in court about him, I'd be just as shocked as she looked, and I think I'd sneak home and never been seen at any of his appearances again. I wonder if she will be at the mention or whether the penny has dropped and she has seen him for what he is. Time will tell.

 

[Woof]

I'd like to ask a question about number plates. The SETTLED plate is on the Prado, right? And ALLISON on the Captiva. Who then has 5ETTLE(?) on a dark blue Honda? Or who did? Is that NBC's car? I don't know if there was more at the end of it because it was cut out of the photo.

Actually, forget that. I looked up previous WS postings. It belongs to one of the partners. Now an ex partner apparently. Does anyone know when they left the business and how friendly they remain with the family?

 

[summer_breeze]

A different case, but the "sentiment" is applicable here.


http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...dup-to-high-court-hearing-20120706-21l9i.html

Amy Remeikis
July 6, 2012 - 4:54PM

<snipped>

Earlier, the judge took aim at the “morons’’ who exposed four sisters to the media, saying those involved should be ashamed.

 

[LollyPop]

Things seem to have gone quiet on the accomplice/accessory front. I haven't seen anything reported lately.

I hope this hasn't proven a stumbling block for investigators........would hate to see someone get away with such behaviour.

Been thinking exactly the same thing....but then, the media went very quiet in the few days before GBC's arrest....

 

[Bayside]

I'm curious about Monday. If it were my brother and I heard all that read out in court about him, I'd be just as shocked as she looked, and I think I'd sneak home and never been seen at any of his appearances again. I wonder if she will be at the mention or whether the penny has dropped and she has seen him for what he is. Time will tell.

I am going to put my money on Olivia being there again and Ma & Pa keeping clear.

I think Baden Clay senior would be nervous to be around all those cops and handcuffs esp ones that might have his name on them lol.

 

[summer_breeze]

So, I've been thinking about the blood and hair found in the car. From a perhaps different point of view, and from what we know:

• How does QPS tie in this blood spatter to the murder of Allison?
• How does QPS know that the blood is not from an earlier/previous incident?
• How does QPS tie in a strand of hair, found in a car that belonged to the
  victim, to the circumstances of her murder?

You cannot tell how old a blood spatter might be, can you??? The strand of hair could have been left at anytime, for any number of reasons??? Allison herself could have folded the seats down to transport something in the car?? And nicked her knuckles or something??? (Been there, done that)

For me, these are not pieces of evidence that help to convince me that the car was part of the murder or evidence of removal of a body. Not yet, not at this time.

Fire away!

 

[Mani]

So, I've been thinking about the blood and hair found in the car. From a perhaps different point of view, and from what we know:

• How does QPS tie in this blood spatter to the murder of Allison?
• How does QPS know that the blood is not from an earlier/previous incident?
• How does QPS tie in a strand of hair, found in a car that belonged to the
  victim, to the circumstances of her murder?

You cannot tell how old a blood spatter might be, can you??? The strand of hair could have been left at anytime, for any number of reasons??? Allison herself could have folded the seats down to transport something in the car?? And nicked her knuckles or something??? (Been there, done that)

For me, these are not pieces of evidence that help to convince me that the car was part of the murder or evidence of removal of a body. Not yet, not at this time.

Fire away!

To my knowledge, you can't date blood - apart from saying it is fresh (red) or old (brown/red and oxidised)

 

[LollyPop]

So, I've been thinking about the blood and hair found in the car. From a perhaps different point of view, and from what we know:

• How does QPS tie in this blood spatter to the murder of Allison?
• How does QPS know that the blood is not from an earlier/previous incident?
• How does QPS tie in a strand of hair, found in a car that belonged to the
  victim, to the circumstances of her murder?

You cannot tell how old a blood spatter might be, can you??? The strand of hair could have been left at anytime, for any number of reasons??? Allison herself could have folded the seats down to transport something in the car?? And nicked her knuckles or something??? (Been there, done that)

For me, these are not pieces of evidence that help to convince me that the car was part of the murder or evidence of removal of a body. Not yet, not at this time.

Fire away!

I guess we do know that they had only had the car for six/eight weeks I think? Short period of time to get blood on a car in two places in that time. And I think in unlikely areas. But possible? Yes. Likely? And as her hair may have just been colored, maybe thy can tell that due to chemical residue but just MOO

 

[Woof]

I am going to put my money on Olivia being there again and Ma & Pa keeping clear.

I think Baden Clay senior would be nervous to be around all those cops and handcuffs esp ones that might have his name on them lol.

Oh yes. I bet Ma and Pa are too scared to go in case they hear something that will make them react.

Olivia? I'm not as sure. I can only go on how I'd feel if I heard that about my brother.

 

[Mani]

QPS are using this as proof her body was moved by car..hence interfering with corpse

That would make sense Berry - if Allison was murdered at home and then her body moved to the creek, then that would be classified as interfering with a corpse IMO.

Does that mean that the QPS know that she was murdered at home and transported to the creek, which is supported by the fact that they found blood in the car? IMO

 

[BJsleuth]

So, I've been thinking about the blood and hair found in the car. From a perhaps different point of view, and from what we know:

• How does QPS tie in this blood spatter to the murder of Allison?
• How does QPS know that the blood is not from an earlier/previous incident?
• How does QPS tie in a strand of hair, found in a car that belonged to the
  victim, to the circumstances of her murder?

You cannot tell how old a blood spatter might be, can you??? The strand of hair could have been left at anytime, for any number of reasons??? Allison herself could have folded the seats down to transport something in the car?? And nicked her knuckles or something??? (Been there, done that)

For me, these are not pieces of evidence that help to convince me that the car was part of the murder or evidence of removal of a body. Not yet, not at this time.

Fire away!

The only way I can think and we've not heard this yet from QPS is that there was evidence of it being freshly spot cleaned that morning. Possibly still damp and or the smell of cleaners. JMO

 

[Mani]

I guess we do know that they had only had the car for six/eight weeks I think? Short period of time to get blood on a car in two places in that time. And I think in unlikely areas. But possible? Yes. Likely? And as her hair may have just been colored, maybe thy can tell that due to chemical residue but just MOO

It is my understanding that they can identify that the hair strand is similar to that of a person but in order to get a direct match, they need the hair follicle to carry out the DNA testing. IMO

 

[Mani]

The only way I can think and we've not heard this yet from QPS is that there was evidence of it being freshly spot cleaned that morning. Possibly still damp and or the smell of cleaners. JMO

Very good point. The smell of bleach/ strong cleaning fluid in the car would alert police that something wasn't right and yes, dampness....good point BJS
MOO

 

[DrWatson]

Correct me if I am wrong however from memory, you mentioned on an earlier thread that shortly after death a body can emit blood from certain orafaces? Marly may help me with that link.

That wasn't me. And it is unusual for blood to be emitted unless there has been serious - and I mean MAJOR - internal injuries. It's not like in the movies where blood comes oozing out of the mouth when somebody dies on the floor. I have seen countless cases with ruptured aortas, for example - and that is a LOT of blood. But not on the outside - there's no communication between the aorta and outside unless you've been stabbed. Or unless you have a thing called an aorto-enteric fistula, which I'm sure Allison would NOT have had.

The bladder and bowels can discharge as muscles relax, and saliva and sputum can dribble out of the mouth. Any nurses on here would know, having most likely had to lay out patients who have died, and would know what needs cleaning up.

But blood would be unusual. I've seen countless victims of major trauma, and it is not common for blood to be emitted from normal orifices - from wounds, sure.

That's why I thought of a nosebleed as a possible cause of that blood in the back of the car.

And as I and others have said previously - that may have been from earlier. What's to say that Allison didn't have a nosebleed in the car previously?