Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[Aunty]

However, this does not exclude some person other than GBC stashing pkts of Zoloft to 'steer' towards a depression, therefore possible suicide theory IMO.

Just thinking out loud.....
Empty Zoloft packets were found in different places around Allisons house. Obviously placed there by someone. Someone who wanted to paint a picture of a depressed woman.
If they were placed in a pile together, someone would have wanted to paint a picture of a suicidal woman.
Whoever placed them, knew she wasn't suicidal perhaps.

Did allisons name appear on any of the boxes? or was it just the sleeves that were found?
Were they even Allisons tablets? Just because she was prescribed them, doesn't mean that they were her packets. I hope they were fingerprinted!
( I don't keep my empty boxes or packets and don't stock pile them either) if empty packets were found lying around my house, I can assure you that they would not be mine.
Did the accused, the sister, the occupants of Skull Manor , or any girlfriends, take Zoloft too ? If they do take Zoloft, do they throw them out, or do they keep their empty packets? In a handbag maybe? In their car? Are they missing any packets? Do they stockpile them?
We know who was there, that morning, so I wonder if the police have investigated and audited their Zoloft use and disposal habits?
I don't believe Allison took extra tablets at all. I think the murderer wanted it to look like she had problems.

 

[Oz Jen]

Just thinking out loud.....
Empty Zoloft packets were found in different places around Allisons house. Obviously placed there by someone. Someone who wanted to paint a picture of a depressed woman.
If they were placed in a pile together, someone would have wanted to paint a picture of a suicidal woman.
Whoever placed them, knew she wasn't suicidal perhaps.

Did allisons name appear on any of the boxes? or was it just the sleeves that were found?
Were they even Allisons tablets? Just because she was prescribed them, doesn't mean that they were her packets. I hope they were fingerprinted!
( I don't keep my empty boxes or packets and don't stock pile them either) if empty packets were found lying around my house, I can assure you that they would not be mine.
Did the accused, the sister, the occupants of Skull Manor , or any girlfriends, take Zoloft too ? If they do take Zoloft, do they throw them out, or do they keep their empty packets? In a handbag maybe? In their car? Are they missing any packets? Do they stockpile them?
We know who was there, that morning, so I wonder if the police have investigated and audited their Zoloft use and disposal habits?
I don't believe Allison took extra tablets at all. I think the murderer wanted it to look like she had problems.

Maybe its just me, but the last place I would keep tablets would be in the carport! My bag, bathroom cabinet, perhaps a 'traveller' in the glove box, but the carport??

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

If defense has found previous case/s where similar post mortem drug concentration levels lead to death, it will help their argument. IMO
That Zoloft was prescribed demonstrates probable depression, which is a risk factor for suicide. IMO
Zoloft overdose does not have to be proven for the suicide theory to be reasonably considered a plausible COD. IMO

 

[DrWatson]

I love coming on here to catch up these great posts.
Awesome as usual.
Shout out must go to Doc Watson today. Nice job Doc!

Thanks for the kind words, Curious

 

[DrWatson]

If defense has found previous case/s where similar post mortem drug concentration levels lead to death, it will help their argument. IMO
That Zoloft was prescribed demonstrates probable depression, which is a risk factor for suicide. IMO
Zoloft overdose does not have to be proven for the suicide theory to be reasonably considered a plausible COD. IMO

I take your points, but

1. can't prove that a post-mortem drug level LEAD to death - see the papers I referred to in posts last night. Also your link. Also, Zoloft - on its own - is VERY unlikely to cause death.

2. Agree that Zoloft usually given for depression, but not all depression is a risk factor for suicde. There are different types of depression (endogenous, reactive, etc). And Zoloft is also used for anxiety and OCD. The prescription of Zoloft, on its own, can't be taken as indicating a risk of suicide.

3. Zoloft overdose was the proposed method of suicide in the defence's case at the bail hearing, based on the levels found that were alleged to be toxic. No other cause of death was proposed as the suicide. And no indication of potential suicide is found in her diaries, or in the statements given by GBC. So based on that, for the suicide theory to have credence, they WOULD have to show that the levels found COULD have caused her death. And the stuff we found last night says basically that they CAN'T show that.

Hope you don't mind me debating your points

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

I take your points, but

1. can't prove that a post-mortem drug level LEAD to death - see the papers I referred to in posts last night. Also your link. Also, Zoloft - on its own - is VERY unlikely to cause death.

2. Agree that Zoloft usually given for depression, but not all depression is a risk factor for suicde. There are different types of depression (endogenous, reactive, etc). And Zoloft is also used for anxiety and OCD. The prescription of Zoloft, on its own, can't be taken as indicating a risk of suicide.

3. Zoloft overdose was the proposed method of suicide in the defence's case at the bail hearing, based on the levels found that were alleged to be toxic. No other cause of death was proposed as the suicide. And no indication of potential suicide is found in her diaries, or in the statements given by GBC. So based on that, for the suicide theory to have credence, they WOULD have to show that the levels found COULD have caused her death. And the stuff we found last night says basically that they CAN'T show that.

Hope you don't mind me debating your points

I definitely do not mind Dr Watson, in fact I appreciate it. Thank you.
Just making the point that discounting suicide when no COD can be confirmed may not be quite as easy as it first seems. IMO

EDIT: I have been unable to find any documented cases where post mortem levels of Zoloft alone have been indicated in COD. But am still very interested in whether the defence has found any. IMO

 

[Fuskier]

Also big shout to Alioop for guiding us and interpreting the legal aspects of the Bail Hearings and upcoming Committal Hearing etc. Appreciated as it keeps our expectations grounded. Thank you.

 

[DrWatson]

Just making the point that discounting suicide when no COD can be confirmed may not be quite as easy as it first seems. IMO

Good point - but I suspect that the prosecution have been playing their cards very close, and only letting out enough information to get bail denied. And if they can prove that suicide by Zoloft overdose is NOT feasible, then that would go a long way towards bolstering their case for murder.

 

[alioop]

EDIT: I have been unable to find any documented cases where post mortem levels of Zoloft alone have been indicated in COD. But am still very interested in whether the defence has found any. IMO

At the bail hearing the defence only had evidence of cases where there were drugs in addition to zoloft that caused death. The Judge particularly commented on that those cases were different as no other drugs were found in Allison. So if there were any cases of death by zoloft as the only drug, the defence couldn't find it.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

At the bail hearing the defence only had evidence of cases where there were drugs in addition to zoloft that caused death. The Judge particularly commented on that those cases were different as no other drugs were found in Allison. So if there were any cases of death by zoloft as the only drug, the defence couldn't find it.

Thank you Alioop. Much appreciated post.

 

[Mystique75]

I'm about halfway through the flurry of posts since the latest bail hearing, trying to catch up since yesterday and reeling with all this new information. Some of it is just so spooky, how accurate some fellow WS'ers have been. A few notes before I forget:

Thank you alioop for your notes, summaries and observations. What a truly remarkable contribution you make!

I'm so glad that you were all here as this was happening, I know Allison and her family were not left alone, at least in spirit.

The levels of Zoloft or its indicators found were potentially fatal? If those levels were found in the bloodstream, or the liver where it is processed?

Allison's diary - broke my heart - I felt terrible reading it, but I think it's interesting that it appears to be written in "therapy format" eg: q 1. At night, when I go to bed, I feel........ (fill in the blanks). To use this as evidence of potential for suicide? Crass, ludicrous and desperate IMO. What a blow to Allison's dignity. Or rather, a blow to any last notion of integrity for GBC and his team. IMO. That is how cheated spouses feel, real people. Who feel pain, empathy and fear. Not psychopaths. I'm sure it seemed overly emotional to those who feel nothing.

Fancy going for the "mood swings" angle? As if it could get any lower. I can imagine Allison speaking her mind, not taking any crap for those few days that she'd simply had enough and wasn't taking any more. Those could be considered "mood swings". Think you need to see your doctor, Al. Love, G!

So far, I'm more convinced than ever that justice will be served!

 

[Aunty]

Maybe its just me, but the last place I would keep tablets would be in the carport! My bag, bathroom cabinet, perhaps a 'traveller' in the glove box, but the carport??

Yes, that's what I think too. The carport? Empty Zoloft packets left in carport?
I wonder what other items were moved and placed around the house, to set the scene to match the story, " she went for a walk and must have fell down a hole?
Maybe the Zoloft was left in the garage, to convince the police that she popped a few pills, and fell down the hole?

 

[Susan12]

At the bail hearing the defence only had evidence of cases where there were drugs in addition to zoloft that caused death. The Judge particularly commented on that those cases were different as no other drugs were found in Allison. So if there were any cases of death by zoloft as the only drug, the defence couldn't find it.

That's a great point alioop and for sure they'd have looked if they found those other cases.

 

[alicat]

I know this is completely off topic, but man exposed himself at Indooroopilly SC. Does anyone recognise this man? http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...541914266?sv=1b593ddc88fe98b8ea053b45ac43e6d7

 

[alicat]

The 'Biggest Moments of 2012' have been released on news.com.au, and the Baden-Clay tragedy was number 10.

http://www.news.com.au/national/big...den-clay-tragedy/story-fndo4eg9-1226533839904

 

[Susan12]

The 'Biggest Moments of 2012' have been released on news.com.au, and the Baden-Clay tragedy was number 10.

http://www.news.com.au/national/big...den-clay-tragedy/story-fndo4eg9-1226533839904

I bet the Baden-clay family didn't expect this to be such a big story with so much interest.

I think it's natural for the public to be interested when something so awful happens to a normal woman and mother. You feel so bad for her but it's more than that,you can relate to her and it makes it disturbing.

 

[they'll get you]

Remembering the tuck shop we didn't speak or share about such personal problems. I feel from what I have read about Allison she was a proud and private young lady. If I've got this right, I'm sure she would have been absolutely mortified that such a private conversation about her marriage was being discussed even if it was her best friend who told her. To be the last to know and to find out others have been speaking regarding this would be heartbreaking and gobsmacking! I am eager to find out what her best friend & parents have said in their statements to police. As a woman my heart breaks for what Allison has been through. I'm sure any one of us would have lost control & clawed that b****rds face. He was murdering her slowly for many years.
There was a house next door to your parents Allison, I so wish you had left with the children and lived close to them.

 

[Maigret]

Remembering the tuck shop we didn't speak or share about such personal problems. I feel from what I have read about Allison she was a proud and private young lady. If I've got this right, I'm sure she would have been absolutely mortified that such a private conversation about her marriage was being discussed even if it was her best friend who told her. To be the last to know and to find out others have been speaking regarding this would be heartbreaking and gobsmacking! I am eager to find out what her best friend & parents have said in their statements to police. As a woman my heart breaks for what Allison has been through. I'm sure any one of us would have lost control & clawed that b****rds face. He was murdering her slowly for many years.
There was a house next door to your parents Allison, I so wish you had left with the children and lived close to them.

I manage a school canteen and we are mostly too busy to do much gossiping but I would not have encouraged this sort of gossip at all. School playgrounds whilst mums are waiting to pick up children can be very 'gossipy' not always light hearted either

 

[Fuskier]

In my opinion, Outstanding Post of the Allison Baden-Clay Thread for 2012 is by HAWKINS on 05-14-2012, 07:05 am Post No: #907

Do not friggin start me. The objectification of women is a vestigial sociological imperative that is well past its use-by-date. Women have been commodities in the physical, emotional and spiritual sense for many thousands of years. Very few people really appreciate the depth to which these subservient roles are ingrained. Violence towards women is still at epidemic levels in our community and this violence is not specific to any demographic. The levels of child sex abuse, especially against girls is a national disgrace. Emotional violence and intimidation starts from a very young age and many, many men humiliate their wives and female relatives without any sense that they are doing so. Any man who thinks that Australia is a society which has turned the corner and which provides equal expectations and opportunities for women should experience life from a woman's perspective for a while. Boys need to be exposed to male role models who treat women as human beings, not as some other species who they should look after and 'respect'. Respect is a human right, not a right that you get by being a woman. Women are not furniture, they are not fashion accessories, they are not property, they are not investments. They are not cute things that you have a duty to look after like a pet. Violence against, and the objectification of, women is a deep social problem that is only vaguely recognised and addressed despite ridiculous claims that women are now somehow mostly 'equal'. If Mrs Baden Clay has died as the result of domestic or partner violence then hopefully the result will be something more than a shallow sense of satisfaction that her 'killer' is broughtto justice. All men need to look at their own hearts and their own values and ask what their potential is to act in the same way as her killer(s). We should all look at her death and ask how we collectively failed her and what we can do to empower our daughters to ensure that they do not suffer a similar fate. I am a man. My opinion only.

 

[alicat]

I like Hawkins.

'Boys need to be exposed to male role models who treat women as human beings, not as some other species who they should look after and 'respect'. '

This above statement is so true! When I was younger I had a boyfriend who treated me like absolute crap. I was young and scared and didn't know how to leave (oh, how I wanted to!) People around me saw how he treated me and told me just to leave, but I didn't know how to.

At first I thought he was great and charming and then he turned into an absolute maniac. I wondered where it was all coming from and then I met his dad who used to hit him (he was 19 when I knew him) and still got hit by his dad. Then I saw his dad and HIM hit his mother and she just took it. I tried to hug her and they wouldn't let me. She just smiled and apologised and walked off. She was obviously so used to this behaviour she thought it was the norm.

It all came to an abrupt end when I told him I didn't want to see him anymore. I was trying to be strong, listening to people that I shouldn't put up with this anymore. He invited me over to collect some things, which I did and then he pointed out two pet mice he had chloroformed and hung on the wall. He told me if I ever tried to leave him he would do the same to me. He then went out on the balcony and tried to hang himself. I got his dad, who got him down. Stayed with him till he fell asleep and left, never to see him again (until I saw him many years later at VicRoads - I left feeling violently ill).

It was so hard to leave - I was fearful for my life. I had seen the way he had acted to other people. His violent outbursts scared me so much. I'm just so glad I got out of that relationship and I know how hard it is to leave a man like this. I just wish other woman could do it. No-one deserves to be treated like that. No-one should be fearful for their lives.