Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[they'll get you]

Just wondering about something now re Allison's body under the bridge. IF she'd been thrown from the bridge, would she would have been thrown horizontally or vertically ??

Going by the video screen shots of where her body was found, it was lengthways along the creek bank. It would take quite a bit of rolling for the body to end up in that position??

I think I remember the area under the bridge was overgrown and it was cleared by police so maybe she landed on a small tree or undergrowth and was flipped under. then again if it was overgrown, how did the canoeists see her or did they know 'something' was dead under the bridge, sorry but she was there for a while.

 

[they'll get you]

Alioop I've read that some have access to statements, autopsy etc about this case, how are these accessible to the general public? Can the public just purchase such documents from the court? Im really surprised as this person is not a part of the hearing.

 

[Obsessor]

I think I remember the area under the bridge was overgrown and it was cleared by police so maybe she landed on a small tree or undergrowth and was flipped under. then again if it was overgrown, how did the canoeists see her or did they know 'something' was dead under the bridge, sorry but she was there for a while.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but does anyone know the approx height of the rails on the bridge to the position Allisons body was found?

 

[Obsessor]

I doubt Allison was an agressive person who'd make a scene in public but if TM was worried about a confrontation or intimidation at the conference at what point was she happy to attend? Would the police have interviewed TM's colleagues or attendees to see if she was agitated or scared of entering the conference? That would help her innocence.
If I was in TM's position I would not have attended, to save a situation I wouldn't have cared if I'd lost $1,000 for the conference. It was a professional arena & I would have opted out......unless she knew the coast was clear and she had to attend to look innocent. Oh I'm sure her reaction to Allison's empty seat would have either relieved her or rattled her.
Just baffled about any calls that night between them both.

"no way I'm not going!"
"Go, trust me, I'll make everything OK"

My guess is that there would have been a lot of people at that conference, and provided the two women weren't sitting at the same table, there might have been an uncomfortable moment or two if they caught each others eye, but no reason why either one of them couldn't go. This is just how I'm imagining it.

 

[Obsessor]

Just wondering about something now re Allison's body under the bridge. IF she'd been thrown from the bridge, would she would have been thrown horizontally or vertically ??

Going by the video screen shots of where her body was found, it was lengthways along the creek bank. It would take quite a bit of rolling for the body to end up in that position??

Certainly no professional here, but one would imagine that as the surface was overgrown, uneven and muddy, she wouldn't have rolled far at all. Add that to the fact that a corpse (sorry) is a dead weight and would flop fairly hard I would guess.
Perhaps if one landed on concrete they would roll, but I cant imagine much roll effect here.

My completely uninformed opinion!!

 

[LadyBird1]

I think I remember the area under the bridge was overgrown and it was cleared by police so maybe she landed on a small tree or undergrowth and was flipped under. then again if it was overgrown, how did the canoeists see her or did they know 'something' was dead under the bridge, sorry but she was there for a while.

I have a nose like a bloodhound. Will say no more re finding her.
If she were placed, there should have been tracks of some description, from the bridge down, even after rain.
Example, a bush disturbed or bent, broken twigs, bruised or turned vegetation, stones moved. Footprints if very lucky, (hard after the rain.)
Would have been good to have an experienced expert tracker on the job.
If she were tossed, then all things mentioned above would have been in fairly unadulterated condition, except for, say animal and wildlife tracks. And they would be easy to distinguish, including their age.

 

[AAAA]

Still not sold on the above water idea. I'm of the understanding that there was damage to various body parts, thought by media to be from water dwelling creatures. Sorry if this offends, it is a terrible thought. However, media has got things wrong in the past. Marly, feel free to delete as I can't provide a link to this info. IMO.

 

[Obsessor]

I have a nose like a bloodhound. Will say no more re finding her.
If she were placed, there should have been tracks of some description, from the bridge down, even after rain.
Example, a bush disturbed or bent, broken twigs, bruised or turned vegetation, stones moved. Footprints if very lucky, (hard after the rain.)
Would have been good to have an experienced expert tracker on the job.
If she were tossed, then all things mentioned above would have been in fairly unadulterated condition, except for, say animal and wildlife tracks. And they would be easy to distinguish, including their age.

In the early days, it was reported that police had found possible drag marks leading into "a" creek- it doesn't say Kholo. Back then, there was considerable opinion that she could have washed down to where she was found from one of the creeks near the scout camp.

You would think now, looking back at that, that a reason for them looking at this possibility, would be the unlikeliness of her landing where she did if she was dropped from the bridge.??



"A large contingent of SES volunteers and police set up camp at the scout grounds on Tuesday, scouring a massive area of bushland adjoining Kholo Creek, where the body was found, as well as Little Ugly Creek and Flaggy Creek.

Police identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks. They also found a mobile phone SIM card, but it was yet to be determined if either of the finds had any relevance to Mrs Baden-Clay's death." http://www.qt.com.au/news/police-find-suspected-drag-marks-near-creek/1366933/ 3rd May 2012


but, since then it has become apparent through forensics that she was likely dropped from the bridge.
She had foliage on her head and upper body consistent with foliage from the home garden but only 2 from the site, plus there is no evidence of GBC having been to Kholo.
I cant imagine that if he had walked any distance at all, dragging or carrying a body, that there would be no remnants in the car. (I'm assuming he would have discarded all clothes and shoes if he did walk there).
We guess he cleaned the car, but still, dirt on the brake pedal or something would be pretty expected wouldn't it?
Plus, to drag the body he would have had to park for longer, therefore off the bitumen, and would likely pick up something...

 

[Obsessor]

Still not sold on the above water idea. I'm of the understanding that there was damage to various body parts, thought by media to be from water dwelling creatures. Sorry if this offends, it is a terrible thought. However, media has got things wrong in the past. Marly, feel free to delete as I can't provide a link to this info. IMO.

This was not just reported by the media AAAA, it was tendered in court by Danny Boyle. See quote below

4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.

He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.

"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.

 

[Obsessor]

surely that would be a very big gamble

This is just so true. Too big a gamble.

Who would risk stopping on a well used bridge to take a corpse out of the back of their car????? No-one.

 

[LadyBird1]

In the early days, it was reported that police had found possible drag marks leading into "a" creek- it doesn't say Kholo. Back then, there was considerable opinion that she could have washed down to where she was found from one of the creeks near the scout camp.

You would think now, looking back at that, that a reason for them looking at this possibility, would be the unlikeliness of her landing where she did if she was dropped from the bridge.??



"A large contingent of SES volunteers and police set up camp at the scout grounds on Tuesday, scouring a massive area of bushland adjoining Kholo Creek, where the body was found, as well as Little Ugly Creek and Flaggy Creek.

Police identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks. They also found a mobile phone SIM card, but it was yet to be determined if either of the finds had any relevance to Mrs Baden-Clay's death." http://www.qt.com.au/news/police-find-suspected-drag-marks-near-creek/1366933/ 3rd May 2012


but, since then it has become apparent through forensics that she was likely dropped from the bridge.
She had foliage on her head and upper body consistent with foliage from the home garden but only 2 from the site, plus there is no evidence of GBC having been to Kholo.
I cant imagine that if he had walked any distance at all, dragging or carrying a body, that there would be no remnants in the car. (I'm assuming he would have discarded all clothes and shoes if he did walk there).
We guess he cleaned the car, but still, dirt on the brake pedal or something would be pretty expected wouldn't it?
Plus, to drag the body he would have had to park for longer, therefore off the bitumen, and would likely pick up something...

How to drop body leaving no evidence.
Stop at bridge. Night traffic not much. If dragged to the final resting place, return to vehicle, and put shoes into a garbage bag. Put on new shoes. Continue to local bin and dispose of any evidence, (in garbage gags). Note with satisfaction that brake and accelerator pedals are clean, with no evidence. Bit of a bloody problem in the back of car, but no worry, time to deal with that later.
If dropped over the side, and with time being of the essence, this would probably be the most preferred option.
The rest would be simply following the script. As prescribed. And business as usual.

 

[DrWatson]

This is just so true. Too big a gamble.

Who would risk stopping on a well used bridge to take a corpse out of the back of their car????? No-one.

It's not well-used in the middle of the night. Especially around 1am - remember the phone was put back on charge around 1:48am.

And we have to accept the fact that she WAS found there, under the left edge of the bridge as approached from the Brisbane/Anstead end. So the only way she could have been put there was over the edge of the bridge. There is nowhere for a car to pull off the road on that side except for some way back at the start of the Armco barrier. Wouldn't be reasonable to imagine somebody carrying or dragging a body all that way to the creek bank. And it would appear NOT to have been the small parking area on the other side, now that we're NOT thinking she was washed down there. Why take her down the bank and under the bridge to the other side of the bridge? You may recall all the discussions we had about being washed down from Little Ugly Creek or Kholo Creek in that flooding. But she didn't - she was placed where she was found. And the only way I can see that it could have happened was by being rolled or dropped over the edge of the bridge on the left heading away from Anstead towards Mt Crosby - outbound.

We know that she was ABOVE the high water mark - even in that flood - and we know from the autopsy that she was placed in the position she was found sometime "soon after death", and had remained there ever since.

So I can't think of any other way she could have got there... apart from stopping the car on the bridge, hauling her out of the back, and rolling her over the edge.

 

[Obsessor]

It's not well-used in the middle of the night. Especially around 1am - remember the phone was put back on charge around 1:48am.

And we have to accept the fact that she WAS found there, under the left edge of the bridge as approached from the Brisbane/Anstead end. So the only way she could have been put there was over the edge of the bridge. There is nowhere for a car to pull off the road on that side except for some way back at the start of the Armco barrier. Wouldn't be reasonable to imagine somebody carrying or dragging a body all that way to the creek bank. And it would appear NOT to have been the small parking area on the other side, now that we're NOT thinking she was washed down there. Why take her down the bank and under the bridge to the other side of the bridge? You may recall all the discussions we had about being washed down from Little Ugly Creek or Kholo Creek in that flooding. But she didn't - she was placed where she was found. And the only way I can see that it could have happened was by being rolled or dropped over the edge of the bridge on the left heading away from Anstead towards Mt Crosby - outbound.

We know that she was ABOVE the high water mark - even in that flood - and we know from the autopsy that she was placed in the position she was found sometime "soon after death", and had remained there ever since.

So I can't think of any other way she could have got there... apart from stopping the car on the bridge, hauling her out of the back, and rolling her over the edge.

The evidence shows that what you say is the case, but what I was meaning was, it is just so strange to have picked that spot, with a risk of being seen, compared to a back dirt road, or bush track, or a private property.
Dumping a corpse would be a scary thing to have to do.

There is just so much that is odd about that choice, especially if he needed a body to be discovered at some point?

 

[DrWatson]

The evidence shows that what you say is the case, but what I was meaning was, it is just so strange to have picked that spot, with a risk of being seen, compared to a back dirt road, or bush track, or a private property.
Dumping a corpse would be a scary thing to have to do.

There is just so much that is odd about that choice, especially if he needed a body to be discovered at some point?

Oh yes - I agree totally. The choice of place may be something to do with the need for the body to be found. But the fact that the road is busy during the day (moderately so, anyway) wouldn't preclude using it in the middle of the night - that was my main point. There would be very few vehicles traveling that way in the small hours.

 

[AAAA]

This was not just reported by the media AAAA, it was tendered in court by Danny Boyle. See quote below

4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.

He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.

"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.

Yes I read that, just going on what I was personally told by media. Won't be convinced until the police reports come out. It was the same person that told me that the hand rumour was absolutely not true. Again, wish I could link it.

 

[LadyBird1]

It's not well-used in the middle of the night. Especially around 1am - remember the phone was put back on charge around 1:48am.

And we have to accept the fact that she WAS found there, under the left edge of the bridge as approached from the Brisbane/Anstead end. So the only way she could have been put there was over the edge of the bridge. There is nowhere for a car to pull off the road on that side except for some way back at the start of the Armco barrier. Wouldn't be reasonable to imagine somebody carrying or dragging a body all that way to the creek bank. And it would appear NOT to have been the small parking area on the other side, now that we're NOT thinking she was washed down there. Why take her down the bank and under the bridge to the other side of the bridge? You may recall all the discussions we had about being washed down from Little Ugly Creek or Kholo Creek in that flooding. But she didn't - she was placed where she was found. And the only way I can see that it could have happened was by being rolled or dropped over the edge of the bridge on the left heading away from Anstead towards Mt Crosby - outbound.

We know that she was ABOVE the high water mark - even in that flood - and we know from the autopsy that she was placed in the position she was found sometime "soon after death", and had remained there ever since.

So I can't think of any other way she could have got there... apart from stopping the car on the bridge, hauling her out of the back, and rolling her over the edge.

Oh dear, I just thought of a good way to check out a matter. This is for a local.
Take a bag with a bit of weight, and drop over the edge of the bridge, from the appropriate place. Not middle of day with all the traffic. Observe how and where the object lands.
Does it tumble, twist and fall. Please remember to drop the bundle so that it doesn't exactly fall in the water. Just close to the water. Might be a suicidal bag. (May be an insurable bag, so don't lose it completely.)
In other words, think suicide, and think insurance. But watch for lumps, bumps, and whoops-a-daisies.

 

[Chief of Funtime]

I wonder if its possible she was still alive ,unconscious but not dead ,and came to and managed to get herself under the bridge .?

 

[CaseClosed]

Oh dear, I just thought of a good way to check out a matter. This is for a local.
Take a bag with a bit of weight, and drop over the edge of the bridge, from the appropriate place. Not middle of day with all the traffic. Observe how and where the object lands.
Does it tumble, twist and fall. Please remember to drop the bundle so that it doesn't exactly fall in the water. Just close to the water. Might be a suicidal bag. (May be an insurable bag, so don't lose it completely.)
In other words, think suicide, and think insurance. But watch for lumps, bumps, and whoops-a-daisies.

Hmm ... I wouldn't attempt anything like that. It will arise suspicion if someone else sees it and may get one in trouble with the cops .. if not for anything else but littering.

 

[AAAA]

Oh dear, I just thought of a good way to check out a matter. This is for a local.
Take a bag with a bit of weight, and drop over the edge of the bridge, from the appropriate place. Not middle of day with all the traffic. Observe how and where the object lands.
Does it tumble, twist and fall. Please remember to drop the bundle so that it doesn't exactly fall in the water. Just close to the water. Might be a suicidal bag. (May be an insurable bag, so don't lose it completely.)
In other words, think suicide, and think insurance. But watch for lumps, bumps, and whoops-a-daisies.

Great idea except for getting fined for littering. Good in theory though!

 

[CaseClosed]

I wonder if its possible she was still alive ,unconscious but not dead ,and came to and managed to get herself under the bridge .?

I think I recall reading that she was not alive when she was placed under the bridge. Forensics can determine lividity (I think it's called that) and the position of a body when the heart stopped. I believe she was dead before ending up at the bridge.