Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

[MichaelSmith]

If we are to believe what Rudy Guede has to say, then I suppose we should also believe that he did not murder Meredith ... I suppose that this means that no one murdered her.

No otto, it doesn't mean that.

 

[otto]

No otto, it doesn't mean that.

If the theory is that he acted alone, and he says he didn't do it, which we could accept as truth if we want to accept everything else he says as truth ... we're not left with much of anything except the fact that Meredith was murdered, but no one did it.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the pipes leaked each time someone put water down the sink, and that this happened more than once on the evening of 1 November. One can spend time worrying about the leaky pipes, or one can spend time studying how the human digestive system works. The latter is more helpful in understanding this case: The idea that Meredith would still have moved no food into her duodenum six hours after eating a smallish meal is one of the most absurd ideas that has arisen from this case, and that is going a piece. MOO.
EDT
I see no contradiction between saying that Raffaele spilled water and saying that the water came from a broken pipe. If Raffaele was running the faucet (tap) when the leak occurred, the two statements are functionally equivalent. Trying to turn this incident into a gotcha moment worthy of the climax of an episode of "Murder, She Wrote" is wrongheaded IMO.

BBM: Respectfully, this is a huge contradiction because as usual, there were conflicting statements of Amanda and Rafaelle ...

Rafaelle told his father he had a leaking pipe in the 8:30 pm telephone call ... Dr. Sollecito stated this, who had absolutely no reason to LIE about when he last talked to his son on the evening on November 1, as well as what they talked about ...

:waitasec: As to the saying there is "no contradiction" between a "broken pipe" and "spilling water" : it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole because it just don't fit ...

Afterall, these were "college students" who should know the difference between a "leaky pipe" and "spilling water" ...

:waitasec: I almost forgot ... these "college students" said they were at home doing "drugs" the night Meredith was murdered ... and they just can't seem to remember what they did that night, or where they were, because of "those drugs" ...

:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

 

[otto]

BBM: Respectfully, this is a huge contradiction because as usual, there were conflicting statements of Amanda and Rafaelle ...

Rafaelle told his father he had a leaking pipe in the 8:30 pm telephone call ... Dr. Sollecito stated this, who had absolutely no reason to LIE about when he last talked to his son on the evening on November 1, as well as what they talked about ...

:waitasec: As to the saying there is "no contradiction" between a "broken pipe" and "spilling water" : it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole because it just don't fit ...

Afterall, these were "college students" who should know the difference between a "leaky pipe" and "spilling water" ...

:waitasec: I almost forgot ... these "college students" said they were at home doing "drugs" the night Meredith was murdered ... and they just can't seem to remember what they did that night, or where they were, because of "those drugs" ...

:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

What I find most odd about the water leak/spill on the night of the murder and the mop story on the following day is that we are to believe that the pair left water on the kitchen floor for 16 hours ... while they supposedly got stoned and who knows what else. That is very unbelievable.

 

[Malkmus]

What I find most odd about the water leak/spill on the night of the murder and the mop story on the following day is that we are to believe that the pair left water on the kitchen floor for 16 hours ... while they supposedly got stoned and who knows what else. That is very unbelievable.

Because we all know college students would never be caught dead leaving messes in their apartments over night. Especially bad ones like water on the floor.

Try making this argument to anyone in the real world, Otto, and let us know what response you get. Same to the members here who think it's odd that a twenty-year old girl bought a thong instead of traditional underwear.

 

[Malkmus]

I think it's important to keep the facts in mind, and to not assume that no one else is familiar with the case ... many people have followed the case for a long time and are intimately familiar with the details ... even the detail about them eating dinner, then the water leak, then the phone call.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

Let's not present judges' theories as fact either, Otto. This is Massei's interpretation of his own theory regarding the sink, not fact.

 

[Malkmus]

BBM: The original court -- the Trial Court in Italy -- got it right the first time ...

The Jury was NOT rushed and it was reported that they carefully reviewed ALL the evidence and took their jobs seriously ...

Jury requirements in Italy require Jurors to have certain education requirements ... so this Jury was NOT a "Pinellas 12 Jury" ...

Besides, one of their own was on trial : Rafaelle Sollecito ... and NO doubt they carefully considered this ...

:moo:

The difference between that jury and the second one is that the second one had full disclosure of the evidence and the prosecution wasn't allowed to hide anything this time.

 

[Malkmus]

BBM: Respectfully, this is a huge contradiction because as usual, there were conflicting statements of Amanda and Rafaelle ...

Rafaelle told his father he had a leaking pipe in the 8:30 pm telephone call ... Dr. Sollecito stated this, who had absolutely no reason to LIE about when he last talked to his son on the evening on November 1, as well as what they talked about ...

:waitasec: As to the saying there is "no contradiction" between a "broken pipe" and "spilling water" : it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole because it just don't fit ...

Afterall, these were "college students" who should know the difference between a "leaky pipe" and "spilling water" ...

:waitasec: I almost forgot ... these "college students" said they were at home doing "drugs" the night Meredith was murdered ... and they just can't seem to remember what they did that night, or where they were, because of "those drugs" ...

:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

I'm fairly certain that the pipe was confirmed to be leaky by ILE, but I'll have to check on that for you, Dog.gone.

 

[Malkmus]

We can pick and choose which information to accept as truth, but I don't see the point. Guede, Knox and Sollecito are known liars ... so I discredit everything that they say, not just that which doesn't suit my preferred theory.

It comes down to dissecting which statements made by the accused are self-serving or not. A lot of the statements made by Knox and Sollecito are said to be strange, but yet are not self-serving in any way. Guede makes a lot of self-serving claims in his diary entries. The statements he initially made about Knox and Sollecito are not self-serving.

 

[Malkmus]

Knox did provide conflicting times regarding the time of dinner. The initial times she provided were much later than the true time. It's quite true that an innocent person has no reason the fib about the time of dinner. The fact that Knox fibbed a couple of times about the time of dinner does raise big questions ... investigators were probably also wondering why an innocent person would fib about something like that.

Given that Meredith was dead by midnight, fibbing about the dinner time takes on new meaning. Knox tried to convince investigators that she was eating dinner at Sollecitos during the hours when Meredith could have been murdered ... instead, she has no alibi. The dinner alibi was a lie.

So if it was confirmed that they ate dinner at 11:30 they would have an alibi for the murder?

 

[otto]

So if it was confirmed that they ate dinner at 11:30 they would have an alibi for the murder?

It would certainly go a long way towards making it impossible for them to be at the cottage murdering Meredith, since the call from Meredith's father around midnight caps off the time line for the murder.

Regarding the skepticism surrounding the justice system in Italy, I am very curious about the answer to this question:

If the US supreme court makes a ruling, is it normal to assume that there is no justifiable reason to trust that ruling?

That is, is there skepticism about all justice systems, or only the Italian justice system as it pertains to a woman from the United States? How many court cases in the US have heard arguments that blood evidence might be fruit juice, so foot prints from a bloody scene to a bedroom should be ignored?

 

[otto]

Because we all know college students would never be caught dead leaving messes in their apartments over night. Especially bad ones like water on the floor.

Try making this argument to anyone in the real world, Otto, and let us know what response you get. Same to the members here who think it's odd that a twenty-year old girl bought a thong instead of traditional underwear.

There's another one of those very unusual excuses:

she was a univesity student --> there can be no reasonable expectation that university students clean up a large water spill on the kitchen floor in less than 16 hours

That strikes me as bizarre. Should we assume that no young adults know to clean up a water spill as soon as it happens, that only university students are too dumb to figure this out, that people that do not attend university are able to figure this out, that only after young adults have completed a university degree are they able to understand that water on the floor needs to be cleaned up immediately, that adults only figure this out after they slip and fall, that adults only figure this out after they have children of their own?

What exactly is a university student? I'm very curious about this, since many excuses are offerred to Knox because she is a university student ... sort of like ... we should expect nothing from this woman because she attended university.

 

[Footwarrior]

How many court cases in the US have heard arguments that blood evidence might be fruit juice, so foot prints from a bloody scene to a bedroom should be ignored?

Luminol reacts to a lot of other substances in addition to blood. Cleaning agents containing bleach or similar chemicals will light up nicely. In fact, a dilute bleach solution is common used in training investigators to use Luminol.

The footprints in the hallway lit up under Luminol, but didn't contain DNA. Human blood has DNA, household cleaners do not.

 

[Frankie Hellis]

There's another one of those very unusual excuses:

she was a univesity student --> there can be no reasonable expectation that university students clean up a large water spill on the kitchen floor in less than 16 hours

That strikes me as bizarre. Should we assume that no young adults know to clean up a water spill as soon as it happens, that only university students are too dumb to figure this out, that people that do not attend university are able to figure this out, that only after young adults have completed a university degree are they able to understand that water on the floor needs to be cleaned up immediately, that adults only figure this out after they slip and fall, that adults only figure this out after they have children of their own?

What exactly is a university student? I'm very curious about this, since many excuses are offerred to Knox because she is a university student ... sort of like ... we should expect nothing from this woman because she attended university.

Are you kidding me? Do you have children? I have one child who would have cleaned it up within a few hours, probably. I have another who would have never cleaned it up and claimed he had no idea it was even there. I say it depends on the kid. I think if it wasn't water it would have probably been more important to them to clean it up, maybe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Stomach contents is widely known as extremely unreliable in terms of determining time of death.

There is no cell phone evidence other than the fact that her father called after midnight, and the phone had already been tossed in the garden down the road. Nothing further can be determined based on the calls made to her mother or her bank.

I don't have time to do this topic full justice today. However, this is an argument from lack of duodenum contents, not stomach contents. Two of the uncertainties that might otherwise hamper this line of analysis have been alleviated by the testimony of Meredith's British friends, namely the time at which she ate and the amount of food that she ate. Do you accept Massei's explanation of the activity near 10 PM, that Meredith was playing with her cell phone?

 

[otto]

I don't have time to do this topic full justice today. However, this is an argument from lack of duodenum contents, not stomach contents. Two of the uncertainties that might otherwise hamper this line of analysis have been alleviated by the testimony of Meredith's British friends, namely the time at which she ate and the amount of food that she ate. Do you accept Massei's explanation of the activity near 10 PM, that Meredith was playing with her cell phone?

How do Meredith's physical health, and temperature in the cottage, factor into the time of death per stomach contents? How does the amount of alcohol consumed by Meredith, less than 24 hours prior to death, factor into the time of death? These factors cannot be ignored.

Stomach contents as a determinant for time of death is unreliable for many reasons ... mostly because there are so many other factors that influence digestion.

Do you have a link for the judge's conclusions regarding the facts surrounding the calls to the bank?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

:waitasec: I almost forgot ... these "college students" said they were at home doing "drugs" the night Meredith was murdered ... and they just can't seem to remember what they did that night, or where they were, because of "those drugs" ...

One of the myths of this case is that they claimed amnesia from using drugs. This is obviously not true, in that both have provided accounts of what they did that night. Raffaele spoke in front of Judge Matteini, and he commented on his errors in his book. Amanda's accounts are given in Massei. I don't find anything to persuade me of guilt in any error that either one made. We may be at an impasse on this particular issue.

We know that Amanda was acting normally when Ms. Popovic dropped by (circa 8:40). The prosecution did not present evidence of positive drug tests. The only drug that they used was to smoke marijuana. So how and when did they do drugs to get totally messed up? There is no evidence that they did.

 

[otto]

Are you kidding me? Do you have children? I have one child who would have cleaned it up within a few hours, probably. I have another who would have never cleaned it up and claimed he had no idea it was even there. I say it depends on the kid. I think if it wasn't water it would have probably been more important to them to clean it up, maybe.

I'm not kidding at all. Sollecito owned the apt and Knox was a guest. If water was spilled or leaked, and a mop was needed to clean it up, then there must have been a substantial water mess. It's beyond me to understand two adults simply ignoring a mess of water on the kitchen floor for 16 hours.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

How do Meredith's physical health, and temperature in the cottage, factor into the time of death per stomach contents? How does the amount of alcohol consumed by Meredith, less than 24 hours prior to death, factor into the time of death? These factors cannot be ignored.

Stomach contents as a determinant for time of death is unreliable for many reasons ... mostly because there are so many other factors that influence digestion.

Do you have a link for the judge's conclusions regarding the facts surrounding the calls to the bank?

Most or all of the alcohol that Meredith consumed on Halloween night would have left her system by the time she ate the next day. I know that a small amount of alcohol was said to be in her system according to the autopsy, but I have given my reasons elsewhere why I think that the autopsy value may be unreliable. In brief, I would trust the vitreous fluid value if it were available, but I don't think anyone took this measurement. I don't see why the temperature of the cottage figures into this question (it obviously does figure into postmortem temperature measurements to obtain an estimate of the TOD).

 

[Frankie Hellis]

How do Meredith's physical health, and temperature in the cottage, factor into the time of death per stomach contents? How does the amount of alcohol consumed by Meredith, less than 24 hours prior to death, factor into the time of death? These factors cannot be ignored.

Stomach contents as a determinant for time of death is unreliable for many reasons ... mostly because there are so many other factors that influence digestion.

Do you have a link for the judge's conclusions regarding the facts surrounding the calls to the bank?

Otto,

I tried to argue these very same things in the beginning, when I thought they were guilty. The problem is when you start researching stomach contents entering the duodenum, you find there is no way there would not have been something past the stomach portion and into the duodenum within a couple of hours. All the literature you read agrees with a 2-3 hour maximum from the start of the meal. You have to realize you are not referring to stomach contents completely emptying, or really even partially emptying for that matter. You are dealing with a situation where the stomach contents had not even begun to move along in the intestine. If you know of any study or any kind of evidence showing otherwise, I would love to see it. I honestly couldn't find anything remotely indicative of a later ToD, and I really tried.