AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[K_Z]

Regarding the reports that the older teens wanted to attend public school.

I'm going to throw this out. The desire to attend public school may not be related to a rejection of the family religious values, or even a rejection of homeschooling all together.

It's remotely possible that the older teens wanted to take specific classes to prepare them for college, that perhaps were not taught or provided by the parents in their homeschool curriculum. The older son is apparently enrolled in college, and we don't know if he is estranged from his parents, or if they approved and encouraged him going to college. Some fundamentalist evangelical homeschool families do not encourage or approve of college education. It could be that in talking with their brother, they wanted to be educationally prepared differently so that they could have a better chance of being accepted to college to study their desired field.

I say all this, because we know a number of homeschool families from our local area, who participate in some performing arts activities with my kids. One of the teen girls wanted to become a doctor or nurse, or go into the medical field in some area, but her family was not supportive. Their vision for her was to become a wife and mother, and work or help out in one of the extended-family businesses. They wanted her to do online college, if she wanted to continue her education. She was quite conflicted-- didn't want to disrespect her parents, but didn't completely want the lifestyle they envisioned for her. She didn't reject their religious beliefs, but still viewed opposing them, even as an adult, as disobedience/ disrespect. She had a lot of guilt about even thinking about opposing their vision for her life. It was a very sad and tough spot for her to be in, IMO-- and hard to stay neutral when listening and answering her questions. I often wonder what she chose to do.

 

[SStarr33]

I agree with you, completely!
My kids would probably say my husband and I were tough, but fair. Heck NO, they didn't get to make decisions about where/if they went to school. They had some say in how they dressed, did their hair, etc., but only within OUR limits. All 3 had age-appropriate chores and they got grounded, got their stuff taken away, and lost other privileges for not doing what we expected. They were active in school sports, fine arts, and excelled academically and socially.
They knew/know age 18 is when you either go to college, or go in the military but you leave this house. Our daughter got her Bachelor's in 4 years. Our first son is in his 2nd semester of college at 18, our "baby" is 16 and wrestles on the varsity squad while making straight A's in AP and Honors' classes.
NEVER ONCE WOULD THEY CONSIDER RUNNING AWAY. Bragging complete.

I just get so sick of seeing the homelife of the kids that we look for on WS. I think too many are allowed independence too quickly. They aren't always ready. The parents are run over and try to hard to be "friends" with their kids.
Rant complete.

Wish there were more parents like you. Our children and education system are a mess due to ............. who I will not name because I will get a TO Not sure how to get them to figure it out either.

 

[SStarr33]

Regarding the reports that the older teens wanted to attend public school.

I'm going to throw this out. The desire to attend public school may not be related to a rejection of the family religious values, or even a rejection of homeschooling all together.

It's remotely possible that the older teens wanted to take specific classes to prepare them for college, that perhaps were not taught or provided by the parents in their homeschool curriculum. The older son is apparently enrolled in college, and we don't know if he is estranged from his parents, or if they approved and encouraged him going to college. Some fundamentalist evangelical homeschool families do not encourage or approve of college education. It could be that in talking with their brother, they wanted to be educationally prepared differently so that they could have a better chance of being accepted to college to study their desired field.

I say all this, because we know a number of homeschool families from our local area, who participate in some performing arts activities with my kids. One of the teen girls wanted to become a doctor or nurse, or go into the medical field in some area, but her family was not supportive. Their vision for her was to become a wife and mother, and work or help out in one of the extended-family businesses. They wanted her to do online college, if she wanted to continue her education. She was quite conflicted-- didn't want to disrespect her parents, but didn't completely want the lifestyle they envisioned for her. She didn't reject their religious beliefs, but still viewed opposing them, even as an adult, as disobedience/ disrespect. She had a lot of guilt about even thinking about opposing their vision for her life. It was a very sad and tough spot for her to be in, IMO-- and hard to stay neutral when listening and answering her questions. I often wonder what she chose to do.

That older son appears on the FB page with his parents and the rest of the kids in a photo that was taken Friday during their visitation. No estrangement.

 

[SStarr33]

I find this comment and, finally, I am nodding my head. There are many good insights here and experienced people providing good information, but there is nothing I agree with more than this. Family preservation be hanged. It is child preservation that should come first. Of course, this would require spending much more money for the benefit of these children. Children have rights and they deserve to feel safe and have people who care for them. CPS is underfunded, understaffed, and most of the time, under fire. The job is draining and the frontline caseworkers deserver far more credit than they get. That said, they also need more oversight. Too many children get sent home before their future safety is reliably secured.

These children should not be returned to their family until those teenaged children approaching their majority have some say in how they choose to be educated. They will not be living in a bubble of purity in the future. They will be living in this world. If they feel that public school will best prepare them to meet it, then they should have that choice. Children in their teen years should not be forced to accept the religious views of their parents.

They don't have to accept them, but they need to pretend to accept them. If they don't want to pretend, then they need to hit the road or deal with the family consequences.

Period.

 

[jnblsm]

Wish there were more parents like you. Our children and education system are a mess due to ............. who I will not name because I will get a TO Not sure how to get them to figure it out either.

Thanks so much!
And I know who you mean too, and I agree

 

[Charlie09]

I find this comment and, finally, I am nodding my head. There are many good insights here and experienced people providing good information, but there is nothing I agree with more than this. Family preservation be hanged. It is child preservation that should come first. Of course, this would require spending much more money for the benefit of these children. Children have rights and they deserve to feel safe and have people who care for them. CPS is underfunded, understaffed, and most of the time, under fire. The job is draining and the frontline caseworkers deserver far more credit than they get. That said, they also need more oversight. Too many children get sent home before their future safety is reliably secured.

These children should not be returned to their family until those teenaged children approaching their majority have some say in how they choose to be educated. They will not be living in a bubble of purity in the future. They will be living in this world. If they feel that public school will best prepare them to meet it, then they should have that choice. Children in their teen years should not be forced to accept the religious views of their parents.

I completely disagree with you - The parents have the legal and moral authority to decide how their children will be educated.
While the children have the moral responsibility to make faith their own or not, while they live in their parent's home, they should be expected to respect the religious views of the parents.

 

[Charlie09]

They don't have to accept them, but they need to pretend to accept them. If they don't want to pretend, then they need to hit the road or deal with the family consequences.

Period.

(are we related?)

 

[Charlie09]

I agree with you, completely!
My kids would probably say my husband and I were tough, but fair. Heck NO, they didn't get to make decisions about where/if they went to school. They had some say in how they dressed, did their hair, etc., but only within OUR limits. All 3 had age-appropriate chores and they got grounded, got their stuff taken away, and lost other privileges for not doing what we expected. They were active in school sports, fine arts, and excelled academically and socially.
They knew/know age 18 is when you either go to college, or go in the military but you leave this house. Our daughter got her Bachelor's in 4 years. Our first son is in his 2nd semester of college at 18, our "baby" is 16 and wrestles on the varsity squad while making straight A's in AP and Honors' classes.
NEVER ONCE WOULD THEY CONSIDER RUNNING AWAY. Bragging complete.

I just get so sick of seeing the homelife of the kids that we look for on WS. I think too many are allowed independence too quickly. They aren't always ready. The parents are run over and try to hard to be "friends" with their kids.
Rant complete.

My mom still gets the giggles as she remembers my now 44 year old brother, asking at 17..."Tell me the truth mom, is college, like a legal requirement after high school?" it was never an option, we finished high school, and went on to college.

 

[Charlie09]

Regarding the reports that the older teens wanted to attend public school.

I'm going to throw this out. The desire to attend public school may not be related to a rejection of the family religious values, or even a rejection of homeschooling all together.

It's remotely possible that the older teens wanted to take specific classes to prepare them for college, that perhaps were not taught or provided by the parents in their homeschool curriculum. The older son is apparently enrolled in college, and we don't know if he is estranged from his parents, or if they approved and encouraged him going to college. Some fundamentalist evangelical homeschool families do not encourage or approve of college education. It could be that in talking with their brother, they wanted to be educationally prepared differently so that they could have a better chance of being accepted to college to study their desired field.

I say all this, because we know a number of homeschool families from our local area, who participate in some performing arts activities with my kids. One of the teen girls wanted to become a doctor or nurse, or go into the medical field in some area, but her family was not supportive. Their vision for her was to become a wife and mother, and work or help out in one of the extended-family businesses. They wanted her to do online college, if she wanted to continue her education. She was quite conflicted-- didn't want to disrespect her parents, but didn't completely want the lifestyle they envisioned for her. She didn't reject their religious beliefs, but still viewed opposing them, even as an adult, as disobedience/ disrespect. She had a lot of guilt about even thinking about opposing their vision for her life. It was a very sad and tough spot for her to be in, IMO-- and hard to stay neutral when listening and answering her questions. I often wonder what she chose to do.

Did you ever talk to the parents to get their side and what they envisioned or what they hoped to accomplish with online college courses? If it was for two years or four years? If the student bounced from idea to idea or if she had a passion for the medical field?

 

[Tugela]

This is totally absurd. Most vitamin and mineral substances are NOT FDA approved. There is no oversight. The vitamin and mineral industry is self regulated. There has to be something more to this story or the police and CPS have truly overstepped and should be sued. IMO

The stuff they were feeding their kids is basically bleach if I understand the story in that link correctly. Why would CPS be ok with parents doing that? Why would anyone for that matter?

 

[gitana1]

My mom still gets the giggles as she remembers my now 44 year old brother, asking at 17..."Tell me the truth mom, is college, like a legal requirement after high school?" it was never an option, we finished high school, and went on to college.

Good parents.

 

[jnblsm]

they don't have to accept them, but they need to pretend to accept them. If they don't want to pretend, then they need to hit the road or deal with the family consequences.

Period.

exactly!

 

[jnblsm]

I completely disagree with you - The parents have the legal and moral authority to decide how their children will be educated.
While the children have the moral responsibility to make faith their own or not, while they live in their parent's home, they should be expected to respect the religious views of the parents.

That's what I was trying to say, too!
"When you have your own house, and are paying your own way, do what you want. Until then, it's my way."
Don't get me wrong. My kids have more than they need. They have a lot of stuff we can take away, if needed. We pay for cell phones, but monitor usage. We pay car insurance and gas to get where they should be. We check the mileage. It doesn't get abused.
We have no doubt that our kids are going to be amazing contributors to society. They are loved. They know we are proud.
They know if they follow our rules, they get stuff.

 

[jnblsm]

(are we related?)

I am too, then.

 

[Confusion]

I'm not going to touch the religious aspects of this case, but I did want to comment on the "strict parents" discussion. When my sons were young, I was often told that I was too strict with my older one, and should consider spanking the younger one occasionally. Ironically, they both had (and usually followed) basically the same rules. My sons also disagreed that I was too strict (or too lenient), and so did their friends. I never had to beat them into submission, make every decision for them or keep them separated from children who were raised differently.

I actually had very few rules, but disobeying them was never an option. The older they got, the fewer rules they had so that as adults they'd already have practice making decisions for themselves (although I was always willing to discuss things if they needed help in reaching a decision.) Their instructions were that, no matter where they were, they always followed my rules and any additional rules of the place they were. By the time the older one was 12 his main rules were: You will let me know where you are at all times (meaning if he leaves one friend's house to go to another one, he lets me know first), you always come home on time unless given express permission to be late, do your chores before leaving, and don't kill your brother. He was okay with most of them, but thought the last one was sometimes bordering on abuse!

I also had rules for myself. It was my role, IMO, to see that he grew up to be a responsible, independent, trustworthy, well-mannered man, and I preferred to focus on areas that would affect that outcome. I set limits when he was young (and followed the same with my second one) that I would not tell him what to wear (other than making sure whatever he wore was clean at the time), how to wear his hair (he tested me on that one by getting a Mohawk and wearing a hat all summer until it grew out because nobody else in the area had one), who his friends were, or how he spent his money.

I just realized how much I've been rambling, so I'll quit now. My main point was/is that I don't believe it's necessary to control every aspect of a child's life, or force them into submission when you can't. If you teach your values, set a good example, give them chances to make mistakes and support in dealing with the consequences, I believe you're more likely to end up with adults who either share, or at least respect, your beliefs and are better able to make decisions that are in their best interests. If you never let a child make a decision while growing up, it's not going to be easy for them to do it as adults. My sons aren't perfect, but neither of them drinks or uses illegal drugs (even though I never had a rule specifically forbidding either), they're educated, respectful, and even though they're both in their 30's, neither of them swear in front of me because, "It's just not something you do around your mother." (a quote from one of them.) I'm afraid this couple may eventually "lose" many of their kids whether they're returned to them or not. MOO

 

[daisytrail]

I completely disagree with you - The parents have the legal and moral authority to decide how their children will be educated.
While the children have the moral responsibility to make faith their own or not, while they live in their parent's home, they should be expected to respect the religious views of the parents.

Why is not wanting to participate in their parent's religious rituals the same thing as not respecting the views of their parents? There are all kinds of religions and all kinds of religious rituals I don't participate in, but I respect the right of every person to make his or her own choices as to their practice. I would not disrupt the practice of others. That would be rude and I do believe children should be taught to be polite.

 

[daisytrail]

They don't have to accept them, but they need to pretend to accept them. If they don't want to pretend, then they need to hit the road or deal with the family consequences.

Period.

I never read a clearer endorsement of hypocrisy in my life.

 

[jnblsm]

Why is not wanting to participate in their parent's religious rituals the same thing as not respecting the views of their parents? There are all kinds of religions and all kinds of religious rituals I don't participate in, but I respect the right of every person to make his or her own choices as to their practice. I would not disrupt the practice of others. That would be rude and I do believe children should be taught to be polite.

Being polite to others is important, of course. However, if children are given too much freedom before that can mentally handle the responsibility, it can lead to bad consequences. MOO.
Yes, my opinion; and the way I was raised and subsequently raised mine. I proved to my parents and society that I was ready to make my own decisions. My children have done the same. When I lived under my parent's roof, I followed their rules. I got older and realized they did a great job. I never thought about leaving them, or their beliefs. They did great. So did I. I don't have to worry about my kids making poor decisions. If they're not sure, my husband and I help them decide what's right for them.

 

[jnblsm]

I never read a clearer endorsement of hypocrisy in my life.

Really? I disagree with you completely. No hypocrisy at all. Just good parenting.
If you raise children correctly, they will understand you have their best interests in mind and will grow into great adults.
Children thrive with good parenting. They don't need parents to be their friends. They need kids their own age to be their friends.

I never read a clearer endorsement of hypocrisy in my life.

 

[daisytrail]

Really? I disagree with you completely. No hypocrisy at all. Just good parenting.
If you raise children correctly, they will understand you have their best interests in mind and will grow into great adults.
Children thrive with good parenting. They don't need parents to be their friends. They need kids their own age to be their friends.

I wish you had included the post I was responding to. She said that children should pretend to accept their parents beliefs. How is this actually respecting the parents though, to be presented with a face of pretense, rather than genuine communication? Such pretense is, to me, akin to lying. Personally, I always preferred to hear the truth. To me, pretense, hypocrisy, and lying are morally wrong.