AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[Charlie09]

Why is not wanting to participate in their parent's religious rituals the same thing as not respecting the views of their parents? There are all kinds of religions and all kinds of religious rituals I don't participate in, but I respect the right of every person to make his or her own choices as to their practice. I would not disrupt the practice of others. That would be rude and I do believe children should be taught to be polite.

Do you have a faith in which you raise your children?

 

[daisytrail]

Do you have a faith in which you raise your children?

I have a religion.

 

[Charlie09]

I have a religion.

So what you may consider ritual from a "religion" may be different from what parents instilling a faith in their children believe.
What you may consider ritualistic, parents with a different faith may view as part of their daily lives, so it's no optional on what the children participate in with the family as long as they live at home.

 

[ceecee30]

I wish you had included the post I was responding to. She said that children should pretend to accept their parents beliefs. How is this actually respecting the parents though, to be presented with a face of pretense, rather than genuine communication? Such pretense is, to me, akin to lying. Personally, I always preferred to hear the truth. To me, pretense, hypocrisy, and lying are morally wrong.

Actually I disagree with you I personally think it's showing them a form a respect, that whilst under there house you abide by their rules and listen to their views and values.

By choosing to respect their parents religion (even if they believe that religion) I believe it shows an adult level of respect.

Although I can also see your point as well

 

[daisytrail]

So what you may consider ritual from a "religion" may be different from what parents instilling a faith in their children believe.
What you may consider ritualistic, parents with a different faith may view as part of their daily lives, so it's no optional on what the children participate in with the family as long as they live at home.

I don't quite follow you. All religions that I know of practice ritual. Prayer is a ritual. I don't think those observances should be forced upon teenagers. More to the point, the teenagers in the family under discussion seem to want a break from that sort of immersion by wanting to attend public schools. I don't see public schools as especially harmful. I do accept that some people may want to homeschool. It just seems to me that the relationship between these parents and their children might be better served by allowng the teens more freedom in finding their own way. However, I suspect that that issue has little to do with why the children were removed from the home.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I am just curious how many have listened to the recording of the first sermon that is listed on the page where the father is explaining to the children why he beats them? You can fast forward to the 18 min. mark if you want to listen to part but not all of it.

https://stanleyfamily.wordpress.com/4-morning-devotionals/

 

[daisytrail]

Actually I disagree with you I personally think it's showing them a form a respect, that whilst under there house you abide by their rules and listen to their views and values.

By choosing to respect their parents religion (even if they believe that religion) I believe it shows an adult level of respect.

Although I can also see your point as well

I think we may be disagreeing over word choices. The word "pretense" in the post I responded to made me uncomfortable, even shocked me a bit. However, I have a high comfort level with the word respect. If our disagreement goes deeper, then I am willing to agree to disagree.

 

[daisytrail]

I am just curious how many have listened to the recording of the first sermon that is listed on the page where the father is explaining to the children why he beats them? You can fast forward to the 18 min. mark if you want to listen to part but not all of it.

https://stanleyfamily.wordpress.com/4-morning-devotionals/

Which is the title of the sermon to refer to. He's sort of all over the place.

 

[Charlie09]

I don't quite follow you. All religions that I know of practice ritual. Prayer is a ritual. I don't think those observances should be forced upon teenagers. More to the point, the teenagers in the family under discussion seem to want a break from that sort of immersion by wanting to attend public schools. I don't see public schools as especially harmful. I do accept that some people may want to homeschool. It just seems to me that the relationship between these parents and their children might be better served by allowng the teens more freedom in finding their own way. However, I suspect that that issue has little to do with why the children were removed from the home.

But it's the parent's choice, not yours, or mine (although I do home school in a faith based home).

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Which is the title of the sermon to refer to. He's sort of all over the place.

It's the very first one. "Chastening is for Profit"

 

[Charlie09]

I am just curious how many have listened to the recording of the first sermon that is listed on the page where the father is explaining to the children why he beats them? You can fast forward to the 18 min. mark if you want to listen to part but not all of it.

https://stanleyfamily.wordpress.com/4-morning-devotionals/

have "beatings" been an accusation or a charge? I hear spanking and chastening, and not allowed to go into their room to pout after a spanking.

This is the statute in Arkansas "Abuse does not include physical discipline of a child if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by a parent or guardian for restraining or correcting a child. Listed as not reasonable or moderate for correcting or restraining: -- Throwing, kicking, burning, biting, cutting, striking with a closed fist, shaking a child under 3, striking or other actions which result in any non-accidental injury to a child less than 18 months, interfering with a child's breathing, threatening a child with a deadly weapon, striking a child on the face, or any other act that is likely to cause bodily harm greater than transient pain or minor temporary marks. Age, size, condition of the child, and the location of the injury and frequency or recurrence of injuries shall be considered in determining "reasonable" or "moderate."
§ 9-27-303(B). [Civil Code]"

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2010/title-9/subtitle-3/chapter-27/subchapter-3/9-27-303

 

[daisytrail]

It's the very first one. "Chastening is for Profit"

I listened but he is so boring and repetitious, that I wanted to say, 'Just beat me with a stick!' Honestly, I think I would prefer corporeal punishment to having to listen to him. I know many people who think as he does about "the rod" but if he is requiring his older children to disrobe so that he can hit them, well, there is another word altogether for that sort of practice.

 

[Confusion]

have "beatings" been an accusation or a charge? I hear spanking and chastening, and not allowed to go into their room to pout after a spanking. <SNIP>

He says in that "sermon" that the Bible says to beat your child with the rod, not spank them. He also says that you aren't supposed to stop beating them just because they're screaming and crying in pain. He mentions several times that parents should "beat" their children rather than just "spank" them. Whether it's been an accusation or charge or not, the father himself did say that he does it. MOO

This is the statute in Arkansas "Abuse does not include physical discipline of a child if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by a parent or guardian for restraining or correcting a child. Listed as not reasonable or moderate for correcting or restraining: -- Throwing, kicking, burning, biting, cutting, striking with a closed fist, shaking a child under 3, striking or other actions which result in any non-accidental injury to a child less than 18 months, interfering with a child's breathing, threatening a child with a deadly weapon, striking a child on the face, or any other act that is likely to cause bodily harm greater than transient pain or minor temporary marks. Age, size, condition of the child, and the location of the injury and frequency or recurrence of injuries shall be considered in determining "reasonable" or "moderate."
§ 9-27-303(B). [Civil Code]"

It sounds to me like Arkansas believes you can beat children over 3 all you want to as long as you don't leave marks in the wrong places or of the wrong size. Is that what it means, or is it just the shaking that only applies to children under 3? The whole thing makes me wonder why my mother never moved us down there. TIA for any clarification.

 

[Charlie09]

He says in that "sermon" that the Bible says to beat your child with the rod, not spank them. He also says that you aren't supposed to stop beating them just because they're screaming and crying in pain. He mentions several times that parents should "beat" their children rather than just "spank" them. Whether it's been an accusation or charge or not, the father himself did say that he does it. MOO



It sounds to me like Arkansas believes you can beat children over 3 all you want to as long as you don't leave marks in the wrong places or of the wrong size. Is that what it means, or is it just the shaking that only applies to children under 3? The whole thing makes me wonder why my mother never moved us down there. TIA for any clarification.

It's not a sermon, from what I read, it's what they go over in the morning.
My daughter and I have morning devotions (not quite daily) but several times in the week, sometimes they are lighthearted, sometimes they are more serious and around whatever attitude or behavior that needs correcting. I didn't listen to very much of it, what I heard was spanking -
There's a lot of speculation on your part about how the discipline happened, but I'd go with a conservative caution on the abuse allegation until there are charges...but that's just me.

No, it doesn't sound like that in AR -it sounds like there shouldn't be bruising (which a beating would leave bruising) red marks are fine -
it also doesn't mandate spankings, but it allows the parents to decide.

 

[SStarr33]

I never read a clearer endorsement of hypocrisy in my life.

Thank you for proving my earlier point:biggrin:

Nuff said.

 

[Martha Morris]

Imagine having to listen to that every day while you eat your breakfast?!

"The child's crying, he's screaming, he's hurting, his bottom's burning, whatever it is ... but don't stop! Why? When do you stop?

When the child receives the correction. That's the reason I don't just spank you and let you go to your room and cry .. for you to go and have a pity party with the devil and rebel more and more"

and it gets worse after that ....

 

[Martha Morris]

I was quite sympathetic to these parents when I first read the story but listening to those breakfast time sermons is a real eye opener.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I would want to distance myself as far away as possible from anyone that spoke or acted like that. It would cause confusion in my mind on faith and love.

He does not just talk about a simple spanking. He goes on to justify his actions by using bible verses that indicate God tells him that he has to do this if he loves his children.

As an adult or child, I would want to get as far away as I could from something like that as quickly as possible. If someone gave me that speech, I would think they had lost their mind.

 

[MyBelle]

I would want to distance myself as far away as possible from anyone that spoke or acted like that. It would cause confusion in my mind on faith and love.

He does not just talk about a simple spanking. He goes on to justify his actions by using bible verses that indicate God tells him that he has to do this if he loves his children.

As an adult or child, I would want to get as far away as I could from something like that as quickly as possible. If someone gave me that speech, I would think they had lost their mind.

With all due respect, has there ever been a knock at your door by someone handing out literature about their faith? There sure has been at our house but we just politely decline. While you and I may not choose that particular religion for ourselves, millions of Americans do choose it and practice it and have every right to do so. What I find to be far more distasteful and troubling is judgmental finger-pointing, which is what the parents in this case have accused authorities of doing.

JMO

 

[daisytrail]

I do not believe children to be possessions. I do not think children are owned by their parents (as a dog is owned by a pet owner) and possess no rights until they turn eighteen. I do not think there is anything magical about the age eighteen. I believe children have rights the minute that they are born and I believe everyone has rights all the way to the grave.

The notion that rights are absolute to anyone, however, is silly. The rights of any one person is limited by the rights of every single other person on earth. Every single one! We are a community. Others should be approached with respect and a general desire for the well-being of humanity. I believe children should respect their parents, and I believe parents should respect their children. It seems to me that our society has given lots of thought to how children should respect the parents and not much thought as to how parents should respect their children. I think this is incredibly sad, and when it leads to a serious violation of the rights of children, laws should be crafted that better respect the rights of children.

I do not believe the children in this household are being treated properly based upon the slight circumstantial evidence we have here. I hope CPS makes the right decision for those children, based upon the greater evidence that they can gather. I absolutely believe that the state has a right to intervene in families to protect children. I don't think it is only adults who have religious rights.