AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

[LinasK]

I'm not sure of the details, but I know that this isn't offered to every ?child/district? It may be that my local district is unaware of this program or that for some reason the two cancer stricken children I know didn't qualify, but I know that one of their mothers was quite vocal on FB about her son not receiving any home based education. And the other one homeschooled her child when he was unable to attend due to treatments.
The Stanley children do not have any disabilities however so I don't see how this program would apply to them.

ETA- I intended to quote fabvab's post but I'm apparently doing something wrong (only sometimes?)or my phone is too smart for me or something....

Also ETA: in my district we have no ALE, children sent to ALE are bussed to the next district over, ALE is like long term ISS, and is only used for children who have gotten into trouble at school, my nephew is currently In ALE because he was suspended one too many times this school year, it is an alternative to being expelled.

Agreed. There's nothing like that that I'm aware of offered in California, i.e. the school district/state offering to pay for private tutors for kids who are too ill to attend school. Why should the Stanley children get special treatment just because their parents don't want them exposed to other children??

 

[IAMME]

Agreed. There's nothing like that that I'm aware of offered in California, i.e. the school district/state offering to pay for private tutors for kids who are too ill to attend school. Why should the Stanley children get special treatment just because their parents don't want them exposed to other children??

If this were a possibility I would have definitely looked into it for my highly gifted, socially awkward son... I doubt however that the state is prepared to provide one on one education under anything but the most extreme cases...my son would have LOVED being able to work one-on-one, at his own pace and not have to deal with the traditional school setting, okay so maybe I wouldn't have wanted him to isolate hisself but he would have for sure been on board!! I considered homeschooling and realized that I have no self discipline and would declare every day "recess day" after the first week and quickly turned my attention to acceleration instead

 

[Montjoy]

The fact that these parents are christian, or preppies, or that they home school isn't the issue,

rsbm

While I am certainly no fan of pretentious and boring clothing lines like Polo and Izod-Lacoste, I think that it is a teeny bit unfair to remove children from parents who favor such brands.

(sorry!)

 

[IAMME]

rsbm

While I am certainly no fan of pretentious and boring clothing lines like Polo and Izod-Lacoste, I think that it is a teeny bit unfair to remove children from parents who favor such brands.

(sorry!)

I caught that (and many other of my typos, but was too lazy to fix them).. At least I'm not the only one that got a chuckle out of it

 

[MyBelle]

Who would report? The other parent...a neighbor...the mother-in-law... One is not "allowed" to give an infant or child any potentially harmful substance, privacy of the home or not. Laws are in place to protect children, even from their own parents. How sad to think there are those who don't realize that.

So, you are saying a mother-in-law who reports actions of a daughter- in-law she doesn't like is given credibility? Really? I don't believe that happens in the real world.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Who would report the parent if it is done in the privacy of the home and the infant isn't harmed by it. Did I say the baby was in possession of the alcohol? No.

JMO

A concerned family member, perhaps. Getting away with something does not make it legal.

 

[Margo/Mom]

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...ansas-minor-possession-alcohol-charges-penalt
But it is considered possession legally. I don't neccesarily agree with this law, but me not agreeing with it doesn't make it less illegal.... The charges were dropped against the breastfeeding mom due to lack of evidence, I'm assuming they would have had to have Blood alcohol content on baby, and test the milk to make their charges stick. IMO

Here is a summary of no-nos that can lead to child abuse charges (taken from a child-abuse prevention site, but I have also read the same in a state-issued PDF that I couldn't pull a quote from).

As a parent or guardian, you are morally and legally responsible for the welfare of your child. Please remember the following actions are considered unreasonable, as written in state law (this list does not include all punishable actions; for more info, call 501-682-8541):
•Striking a child on the face or head
•Shaking a child under age three
•Shaking any child in a way that causes physical injury
•Striking a child with a closed fist
•Throwing, kicking, burning, biting, or cutting a child
•Interfering with a child’s breathing
•Threatening a child with a deadly weapon
•Pinching, striking, or biting a child’s genitals
•Causing greater than passing pain or leave more than minor temporary marks
•Tying a child to a fixed or heavy object or binding or tying a child’s limbs together
•Giving a child or permitting a child to consume or inhale a poisonous or noxious substance not prescribed by a physician that can interfere with normal functions
•Giving a child or permitting a child to consume or inhale a substance that can alter their mood, if it has not been prescribed by a physician, including but not limited to: marijuana; alcohol (except alcohol used in a recognized and established religious ceremony); narcotics; inappropriate over-the-counter drugs or even appropriate over-the-counter drugs if a person purposely administers an overdose to a child and the child suffers negative consequences from the overdose or inappropriate over-the-counter drug
•Exposing a child to chemicals that have the capacity to interfere with normal functions, such as chemicals used or generated during the making of methamphetamine
•Causing a child to believe they have an illness they do not have (Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy) if the incident is reported and confirmed by medical staff or a medical facility

Note that giving kids alcohol is included. Also, the criteria for giving substances is that they COULD be harmful--there is no requirement that the child actually be sick. I don't know how long ingested (or otherwise inserted) MMS stays in the system, so I don't know if there was, or could have been bloodwork that might give an indication. If not, the court might well be reliant on testimony (most likely from some of the kids) regarding how the chemical was used. According to the family FB page, there was a good bit of concern during the first hearing about MMS and its possible results, which leads me to believe that there is something going on beyond the simple presence of it in the house. I suspect also some other environmental-type dangers, based on Michelle's note of gratitude for people who helped to clean up the yard. Although I haven't seen evidence of it, I wonder if there was some hoarding going on. I keep coming back to Michelle's comment about showing the first social worker who visited the 200+ shoes that they had. Even for a family of 7 kids, that's a lot of shoes.

 

[Margo/Mom]

So, you are saying a mother-in-law who reports actions of a daughter- in-law she doesn't like is given credibility? Really? I don't believe that happens in the real world.

Some investigations are wild-goose-chases. Some can be screened based on the report. The folks who take reports tend to ask questions like: "what is happening right now?" IOW, they want to know if they are likely to actually SEE abuse/neglect or signs of it (insufficient food or clothing, bruises or marks, unsupervised children, meth lab in the kitchen, etc). Professionally I have experienced investigations into bruising that revealed nothing more horrifying than a dirty face, as well as some families who could probably have benefitted from some assistance in child-rearing, but who had not crossed any legal lines. If you poke around the DHS website, you will probably find somewhere the stats on how many hotline calls actually receive investigation as well as how many investigations lead to removals.

Frankly, I think that the Stanleys, and some of their friends, are skilled manipulators. The use of social media to develop a narrative, as well as to create an echo chamber where only certain viewpoints are allowed--which gives an illusion that not only have the Stanleys been targeted due to being Christians, home-schoolers, preppers (or preppies )--and that others are also in danger, but that the children have been removed (kidnapped!) without due process in a governmental over-reach.

 

[IAMME]

Here is a summary of no-nos that can lead to child abuse charges (taken from a child-abuse prevention site, but I have also read the same in a state-issued PDF that I couldn't pull a quote from).

•Giving a child or permitting a child to consume or inhale a poisonous or noxious substance not prescribed by a physician that can interfere with normal functions
•Exposing a child to chemicals that have the capacity to interfere with normal functions, such as chemicals used or generated during the making of methamphetamine
•Causing a child to believe they have an illness they do not have (Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy) if the incident is reported and confirmed by medical staff or a medical facility

.

I hope this snip works, respectfully snipped to address.... (I do not know why all the sudden im having so much trouble with this )

I think that as far as the MMS goes we could be looking at all three of these violations. I had not even considered charges of munchausen, and I don't think the parents have munchausen syndrome, but I wonder if the belief that taking this chemical is somehow keeping Ph levels normal, and doing something for health, wouldn't be a form of munchausen. I also wonder if they have told the kids that if they don't take this crap that they will get sick, or that they have "rope worms" or something that must be treated with this poison. imo

 

[Margo/Mom]

Agreed. There's nothing like that that I'm aware of offered in California, i.e. the school district/state offering to pay for private tutors for kids who are too ill to attend school. Why should the Stanley children get special treatment just because their parents don't want them exposed to other children??

Under federal law (IDEA) home education should be available in all 50 states to children too ill to attend school. Essentially a physical condition that impacts the ability to learn (and being physically unable to go to school would certainly impact the ability to learn) qualifies as a disability and therefore requires a free and appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment (which in the case of a home-bound child, would be at home) be provided. My experience however, is that many districts do not go out of their way to explore such options. The parents can, and should, request an evaluation based on the physical disability (ask in writing, because there is a timeline in which this must be accomplished once it is requested).

None of this, of course, would apply to the Stanley children. It's hard enough to get a district to move on providing services to kids who truly qualify under the law. Thinking that other kids should get the same stuff because their parents want it, well, ain't gonna happen.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I hope this snip works, respectfully snipped to address.... (I do not know why all the sudden im having so much trouble with this )

I think that as far as the MMS goes we could be looking at all three of these violations. I had not even considered charges of munchausen, and I don't think the parents have munchausen syndrome, but I wonder if the belief that taking this chemical is somehow keeping Ph levels normal, and doing something for health, wouldn't be a form of munchausen. I also wonder if they have told the kids that if they don't take this crap that they will get sick, or that they have "rope worms" or something that must be treated with this poison. imo

I don't know about munchausen by proxy. But I believe that there was a report that a neighbor had seen Hal slapping one of the girls, which would fall under #1. Arkansas apparently does not consider whether "spanking" is administered with a hand or an instrument. But clearly Hal believes that he is instructed by God to do so--so it would come down to whether the pain or marking was more than transient in nature--or possibly how long such a session continued. Other followers of the Pearl method have tended to carry beatings over the course of an hour or more, as the aim is not only to inflict pain, but to continue until the child's spirit is broken. This is very similar to the wording that Hal uses in his sermon to his kids. And, as Hal and Michelle have talked a lot about their "rebellious teenagers," I can only imagine what it would take in terms of corporal application for a 73 year old man to break their spirit.

 

[bessythecat]

Regarding the MMS, I just want to point out that the Stanley family does not have a "hydroponics" system; they have an aquaponics system. There are dozens of pictures of their system on their wordpress site, and they are very proud of their efforts and the food they produced. Aquaponics relies on FISH to produce NITROGEN for the aquaponic plants to use to grow. The nitrogen comes from the byproducts of the fish-- their waste. Bleach kills nitrogen producing bacteria, and kills fish and plants, as well.




There is really no place for bleach in a healthy aquaponics system-- and his system produced some very nice vegetables in the pics. So, I call "BS" on that excuse, and don't buy his story at all that he's using MMS to "purify" any water in his aquaponics system. He and his wife know that the only on label, legitimate use of that particular substance is to "purify water". Proponents of this substance tell their customers the official "cover story" is that they are using it to "purify water."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics

There is new post on the "Bring the Stanley Kids Home" Facebook page regarding the aquaponics system and MMS. The post confirms HS has consumed MMS but the main purpose of MMS is used in their aquaponics system. I am not a science person, but if what KZ posted is true, this seems so contradictory.

 

[K_Z]

I think it's a "cover story" for why he has the MMS. (Isn't that FB post pretty coincidental!)

In order to skirt the law and FDA warnings, those who possess MMS need a "water purification" cover story to justify why they have it. IMO, and in the opinion of the FDA warning, as well as the websites that sell it-- customers are all advised about the water purification stories. He happens to have an aquaponics system, so it's a good excuse. In fact, IMO, a better excuse/ cover story would be not that he "needs" MMS to lower his pH in the fish tank, but that he would be using MMS to pre-sterilize his system components before the system was put together.

But then again, a $1 jug of dollar store bleach, highly diluted, or some hydrogen peroxide would do the sterilizing job just fine. So, why MMS?

There are a lot of easier and much better ways to adjust pH, that are far less hazardous to your plants and fish and bacterial cultures (which you need to carefully cultivate in order to have a functional closed symbiotic ecosystem).

http://aquaponics-system.com/141-lower-ph-raise-ph-aquaponics-system/

Lowering pH in Aquaponics Systems

As you might remember lower pH is more acidic. Here are some safe additives you can use to lower the pH of your aquaponics system.
◾pH Down
◾Hydrochloric Acid 1 or 2 caps per 250 gallons
◾Acetic Acid (Vinegar)
◾Sulphuric Acid
◾Maidenwell media or Diatomite (5.2-5.8)
◾Iron sulfate fertilizer

Do not use citric acid – it is antibacterial and will kill your filter.

Note: if you have limestone as your gravel, you will constantly have low pH. Your sourcewater might also be the culprit if you top off with a non neutral pH. I’ve also read that injecting CO2 directly into the water might lower pH too.

Raising pH in Aquaponics Systems

Higher pH readings are called “base”. Here are some safe additives you can use to raise the pH of your aquaponics system:
◾pH Up
◾Dolomite Lime – Calcium Magnewsium Carbonate
◾Calcium Hydroxide (hydrated/builder’s/slaked/hydrated limes)
◾Potassium Carbonate (bicarbonate)
◾Potassium Hydroxide (pearl ash/potash)
◾Snail Shells
◾Sea Shells
◾Egg Shells

If you are using shells, boil, bleach or hydrogen peroxide them first to kill all bacteria. Containing chemicals/ingredients in a nylon stocking or other bag will allow you to remove it easily once you are below 7 pH.

Sodium chlorite, which is MMS. Note also that MMS is recommended to be mixed with citric acid to "activate":

The product contains essentially the same ingredient as industrial-strength bleach before "activation" with a food-grade acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

So, riddle me this. If you can lower pH with plain "natural" vinegar alone, and citric acid is hazardous to your fish, plants, and good bacterial cultures, WHY would you use MMS ALONE (caustic), or combined with an acid, to produce a lowered pH??? Especially when the goal is to have holistic organic system free of pesticides and chemicals?? You're really gonna put drops of industrial activated bleach into your fish tank? Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chlorite

It's totally a cover story, IMO.

 

[IAMME]

It doesn't make sense to me either, anyone who has ever owned a gold fish should realize that bleach is bad for fish and plants....
but the entire thing doesn't make sense to me....
They don't believe in vaccines bc they fear putting unknown, what they consider harmful chemicals in their bodies, but then they swig on industrial bleach??? Seriously, what kind of logic are these ppl using????
So while it doesn't seem logical to me that anyone wishing for an organic end product would use these chemicals in an aquaponics system, I'm not so sure they are basing their decisions on anything remotely resembling logic...

 

[K_Z]

Well, if you don't have a lot of knowledge about science, and you think it's somehow a good idea to put bleach in your fish tank, then you might just have to rely on divine intervention to save your fish and your plants, if you know what I mean.

I don't put my fish in my hot tub, and I don't put hot tub chemicals in my fish tank.

 

[Margo/Mom]

There is new post on the "Bring the Stanley Kids Home" Facebook page regarding the aquaponics system and MMS. The post confirms HS has consumed MMS but the main purpose of MMS is used in their aquaponics system. I am not a science person, but if what KZ posted is true, this seems so contradictory.

I am also pretty ignorant about hydroponics, but after I saw that on the Bring the kids home page, I did do some googling. There are chemicals utilized/necessary to control the Ph of a system. To high or low (mostly too high, it would seem) and the nutrients in the water cannot be absorbed by the plants. I really couldn't come up with sodium chlorite, however except (and the page I was reading referred to household bleach) to clean portions of the system between use. And even then, there were cautions with regard to rinsing well before putting back into use. So--I suspect that they are blowing smoke. I further suspect that they intend to bring in a number of (paid) consultants to testify regarding MMS (there are a number of such charlatans, and at one earlier point there was discussion of a cost of roughly $7,000 needed to pay experts to testify). This should be quite the circus in court.

I also saw that Hal gave another interview to a "Christian" (put that in quotes, because as a Christian I object to what some folks putting out there as being the one and only way to be a Christian) journal. There was rejoicing that the children came home for 4 hours on Sunday to worship with their parents (under the supervision of a Baptist minister who works with DHS). They, according to Hal, spent so much time worshipping together that they barely had time to eat before "they were hauled off to jail again." But the thing that really caught my eye is that, after a week of pronouncements that they were not allowed to pray with their children, apparently someone told him that they could have been praying with the children during any of the visits up until now. His response, "oh, I didn't know that."

It then elaborated on what they are not allowed to talk about, which is essentially "the case." The parents cannot, for obvious reasons, give the kids all the cover stories that they have been releasing in the press. It is truly a shame that all of the Stanleys' supporters, who I believe are earnest in all of their beliefs, cannot pause to consider the serious nature of what they are being accused of, and ask themselves, "what if?" What if the children are being hurt? Instead of crying and carrying on about medical kidnapping, Medicaid conspiracies and the "abuse" of being sent to a public school. What if the children are being hurt at home?

 

[TrackerSam]

What if they're not? Who does the gag order protect?

 

[bessythecat]

What if they're not? Who does the gag order protect?

I believe it is to protect the children's privacy in case something did happen.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I believe it is to protect the children's privacy in case something did happen.

Agreed. The children also have the protection of a Guardian Ad Litem. The appointment of a GAL recognizes that children have rights/needs/desires that may not be adequately represented by either the parents or the child protective agency.

Getting really tired of the children as property of their parents view. One of the FB pages put up a link to an anti-gay, anti-UN, anti-US (in my opinion), anti-children's rights screed on you-tube. These people have very little commitment to the truth.

 

[IAMME]

While I know nothing about aquaponics, in a fish tank ph can normally be controlled/maintained by regular water changes (with water that has either been naturally or chemically DECHLORINATED) or by adding rocks and aquarium decor.... I wouldn't think that the basics of keeping fish would change drastically in this type of system.... I (well technically my daughter bc I'm on crutches) just completed a water change of our tanks about 30 minutes ago...

The older children have asked for privacy, why would the judge not afford the minor children that right? They may not want the public to know what sort of abuse they have suffered, I know that most teenagers are very easily embarrassed and prlly wouldn't want the details of their lives broadcast around the world. It is customary, and I'm fairly certain it is law that all cases involving juveniles are closed and gag orders issued, even in my divorce/ custody papers this was addressed.
I hope that these kids best interests are the ONLY thing that the state uses to determine the outcome, so far I see no reason to suspect that they are not....they are having regular visitation with their parents, there is some sort of plan implemented that involves parenting classes and cleaning up the property (for their possible return), they are being educated to the best ability of the state, including worship services with their parents,, they have had medical exams, I've heard no allegations of them being abused, mistreated or neglected while they have been in the care of the state, and the judge is protecting their privacy and rights by assigning them an attorney/guardian ad litem....