ARDI -- new hope The return of the IDI

[Sophie]

Cutting through all this, though, had JBR turned up in an ER or doctor's surgery with those vaginal injuries, there would be no question that the medical professional would alert social services or the equivalent to carry out an investigation since the presumption is that a healthy and well-adjusted six year-old wouldn't engage in what amounts to self-mutilation. Logically, the first point of investigation would be family.

I'm not sure why the fact that JBR was dead should alter this pattern.

 

[voynich]

Cutting through all this, though, had JBR turned up in an ER or doctor's surgery with those vaginal injuries, there would be no question that the medical professional would alert social services or the equivalent to carry out an investigation since the presumption is that a healthy and well-adjusted six year-old wouldn't engage in what amounts to self-mutilation. Logically, the first point of investigation would be family.

I'm not sure why the fact that JBR was dead should alter this pattern.

If JBR stated clearly JR abused her, I'd believe it.

She could though have stated it was BR or some "friend" outside the family.

These injuries could have come from any 3rd party.

 

[Sophie]

If JBR stated clearly JR abused her, I'd believe it.

She could though have stated it was BR or some "friend" outside the family.

These injuries could have come from any 3rd party.

Absolutely, Voynich, but you still start investigating in circles starting with the nearest family then moving outwards as family is eliminated. In any event, surely the chronic nature of some of the damage would point to someone who had more than passing contact with JBR which in turn points to family or close friends...

This is where JBR commenting that she didn't 'feel pretty' springs effortlessly to mind - conjures up images (to me at least) of an adult manipulating her by playing on her sense of self-worth, which, thanks to the pageants, is based more on physical appearances than it would be with most 6 year-olds.

 

[madeleine]

Absolutely, Voynich, but you still start investigating in circles starting with the nearest family then moving outwards as family is eliminated. In any event, surely the chronic nature of some of the damage would point to someone who had more than passing contact with JBR which in turn points to family or close friends...

This is where JBR commenting that she didn't 'feel pretty' springs effortlessly to mind - conjures up images (to me at least) of an adult manipulating her by playing on her sense of self-worth, which, thanks to the pageants, is based more on physical appearances than it would be with most 6 year-olds.

A girl that age probably wouldn't understand why you need to dye her hair and stuff. She could think she's not pretty hence all the changes.

More re the hair and some other things at link

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02062000judithphillipsinterview.htm

JP: I can't imagine John or Patsy carried any remote quality of being shy. I think the shyness was due to, and this is my own speculation, was due to the demands that was placed on these children emotionally in their household. In having a mother who was so aggressive,

 

[voynich]

I cannot say w/public information whether they did DNA testing on Amy's rapist but if they did and it was a match?

It says that they recovered black fibers from Amy, which may have come from her perp. I wonder if it matches those found on JB panties.

Another possibility is that Amy's rapist intended to do a copy-cat crime of the R's description of what happened to JB. If Amy's mother had not intervened, it would be easy for Amy's perp to knock her fatally w/head blow and then stage the CSI accordingly, and escape undetected.

THe most famous example I know of in the canon of true crime is the Zodiac killer in San Francisco and a copycat ZK in NYC

 

[madeleine]

I cannot say w/public information whether they did DNA testing on Amy's rapist but if they did and it was a match?

It says that they recovered black fibers from Amy, which may have come from her perp. I wonder if it matches those found on JB panties.Another possibility is that Amy's rapist intended to do a copy-cat crime of the R's description of what happened to JB. If Amy's mother had not intervened, it would be easy for Amy's perp to knock her fatally w/head blow and then stage the CSI accordingly, and escape undetected.

THe most famous example I know of in the canon of true crime is the Zodiac killer in San Francisco and a copycat ZK in NYC

@bold

They do have a match for those fibers(JB panites),they belong to JR.
What are you saying,JR could be AR? :crazy::crazy:

 

[voynich]

@bold

They do have a match for those fibers(JB panites),they belong to JR.
What are you saying,JR could be AR? :crazy::crazy:

The Sith are devious

 

[BBB167893]

Another possibility is that Amy's rapist intended to do a copy-cat crime of the R's description of what happened to JB.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that's what happened.

Indeed, that fits with something else you said:

The RDI claim that "pedophile intruders do not assault children in their houses while their parents are present where their screams may be heard"

sounds logical, sensible, forms a key premise of CASKU profile, and many RDI speculations,

Only thing is that there is at least one example of such an intruder, 2 if you count JB

1) I DON'T count JB.

2) More importantly, if it IS a copycat crime, then it's copying a crime which never happened because a perp became convinced they could do it who wouldn't have BEEN convinced otherwise if not for the success of the Rs' BS story. Which means that the claim still has merit.

 

[voynich]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that's what happened.

Indeed, that fits with something else you said:



1) I DON'T count JB.

2) More importantly, if it IS a copycat crime, then it's copying a crime which never happened because a perp became convinced they could do it who wouldn't have BEEN convinced otherwise if not for the success of the Rs' BS story. Which means that the claim still has merit.

It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the case, but by our skills with DNA.

Makashi salute.

I don't know if Amy agreed & submitted to a rape exam and if she did, if they collected her perp's saliva on her say pubic hair, but if they did and if they test it, this theory would predict a DNA match, and would be falsified if there is no DNA match w/unknown DNA on JB. Assuming Amy didn't have sex w/ anyone else -- which became an issue w/Kobe Bryant rape case. It seems unlikely JB had received 'consensual' oral sex from an unknown male but given her eroded hymen I suppose we can't rule that out.

If DNA does match between Amy's rapist and unknown DNA on JB what can I say but this "fought well you have my old padawan. This is just the beginning"

 

[BBB167893]

It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the case, but by our skills with DNA.

(Makashi salute.)
I don't know if Amy agreed & submitted to a rape exam and if she did, if they collected her perp's saliva on her say pubic hair, but if they did and if they test it, this theory would predict a DNA match, and would be falsified if there is no DNA match w/unknown DNA on JB.

Fought well, you have. I'm of the mind that there probably was a test and nothing came of it. If it had, we would know about it.

Assuming Amy didn't have sex w/ anyone else -- which became an issue w/Kobe Bryant rape case.

Make no mistake, voynich: it's an issue whenever there's rape involving DNA. As for the Kobe Bryant case, there was an attorney who decided to drag the victim's sexual history into that, but I can't remember his name just now... it'll come to me (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more).

It seems unlikely JB had received 'consensual' oral sex from an unknown male but given her eroded hymen I suppose we can't rule that out.

I hate to say it, but I've often wondered along those lines myself.

If DNA does match between Amy's rapist and unknown DNA on JB what can I say but this "fought well you have my old padawan. This is just the beginning"

And if it doesn't?

 

[DeeDee249]

A 6-year old can NOT have "consensual" sex. Period.

There has never been, to my knowledge, any statement that saliva was found on JB or her clothes. It was never mentioned specifically that saliva was the DNA found.
The male DNA in her panties, whatever it was, was found mixed with JB's DNA in a drop of blood belonging to JB.
This is the male DNA that matches the "touch" DNA found on JB's longjohns waistband.
The panty DNA could also be "touch" DNA. It is easy enough to touch the crotch of panties when pulling them up.

 

[voynich]

Fought well, you have. I'm of the mind that there probably was a test and nothing came of it. If it had, we would know about it.

Make no mistake, voynich: it's an issue whenever there's rape involving DNA. As for the Kobe Bryant case, there was an attorney who decided to drag the victim's sexual history into that, but I can't remember his name just now... it'll come to me (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more).

I hate to say it, but I've often wondered along those lines myself.

And if it doesn't?

Count Davkoo,
You have interfered with our affairs for the last time. In Kobe Bryant-Katlyn Farber case, the specific facts include the claim by Bryant it was consensual, and the fact Farber had sex w/what, 4 different guys like, what a week before, and she approached Kobe and initiated sexual contact, doesn't look good for her case. I heard that Kobe and Farber settled out of court.

Amy's father stated in an interview to CBS 48 Hours that all the police did was take a report -- they did not even have the interest to draw a sketch. If hypothetically speaking she had sex w/several boys prior to her rape, i am unsure she would consent to a rape exam w/results being made available to police, investigators and well Amy's parents. Plus any and all DNA found would require tracing all prior sexual partners to rule out them.

If DNA does not fit you must acquit. In other words, ARDI is falsified, and it's hard to imagine 2 different intruders in Boulder willing to enter the premises and assault a target while parents present. RDI becomes considerably more likely.

While I am skeptical an adult finger could erode a hymen, a tongue I wonder could do that.

 

[voynich]

A 6-year old can NOT have "consensual" sex. Period.

There has never been, to my knowledge, any statement that saliva was found on JB or her clothes. It was never mentioned specifically that saliva was the DNA found.
The male DNA in her panties, whatever it was, was found mixed with JB's DNA in a drop of blood belonging to JB.
This is the male DNA that matches the "touch" DNA found on JB's longjohns waistband.
The panty DNA could also be "touch" DNA. It is easy enough to touch the crotch of panties when pulling them up.

I understand that, but one reason why foreign DNA would be mixed w/JB blood is saliva.

What would you call say an 8 y/o engaging in oral sex on a 6 y/o?

Since, as I've stated b4, I consider it hard to believe an adult could insert a finger w/o rupturing the hymen of a 6 y/o, perhaps the eroded hymen is due to cunnilingus of another person of unknown age and of course, we really can't rule out females as cunnilingus is a universal lesbian sexual activity.

 

[BBB167893]

Count Davkoo,
You have interfered with our affairs for the last time.

Oh, I don't think so.

In Kobe Bryant-Katlyn Farber case, the specific facts include the claim by Bryant it was consensual, and the fact Farber had sex w/what, 4 different guys like, what a week before, and she approached Kobe and initiated sexual contact, doesn't look good for her case. I heard that Kobe and Farber settled out of court.

Yeah, a payoff. And I just remembered the name of the lawyer who was behind that. Lin Wood. Sound familiar?

Amy's father stated in an interview to CBS 48 Hours that all the police did was take a report -- they did not even have the interest to draw a sketch.

Yes, I know. If so, then the police were negilgent at best. It's when he starts parroting the Rs' line about how the cops were out to hang the Rs, even if it meant letting a child raper go free that my antenna starts to crackle.

If hypothetically speaking she had sex w/several boys prior to her rape, i am unsure she would consent to a rape exam w/results being made available to police, investigators and well Amy's parents. Plus any and all DNA found would require tracing all prior sexual partners to rule out them.

That would be true in any case.

If DNA does not fit you must acquit. In other words, ARDI is falsified, and it's hard to imagine 2 different intruders in Boulder willing to enter the premises and assault a target while parents present. RDI becomes considerably more likely.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

While I am skeptical an adult finger could erode a hymen, a tongue I wonder could do that.

There have been several people in the past who have made that suggestion, voynich. Although, that would apply to insiders as well as outsiders.

On a different note, I'm still not clear on why you're skeptical. From the materials I've researched, it's quite common in such instances.

A 6-year old can NOT have "consensual" sex. Period.

Easy, DeeDee. I think that's why he put those quotation marks in there. Yes, legally, a 6 y/o cannot consent to sex. But don't forget why children make such good victims: they don't always know it's wrong.

 

[DeeDee249]

I understand that, but one reason why foreign DNA would be mixed w/JB blood is saliva.

What would you call say an 8 y/o engaging in oral sex on a 6 y/o?

Since, as I've stated b4, I consider it hard to believe an adult could insert a finger w/o rupturing the hymen of a 6 y/o, perhaps the eroded hymen is due to cunnilingus of another person of unknown age and of course, we really can't rule out females as cunnilingus is a universal lesbian sexual activity.

So now you are insinuating that at age 6 JB was a lesbian?

Legally, children cannot have consensual sex. An 8-year-old with a 6-year-old is evidence at least one of them has been sexually abused by someone else. Oral sex is not part of the usual childhood repertoire of sex play.
Because YOU cannot imagine an adult finger being incapable of eroding a child's hymen does not mean it did not happen. The coroner claims it did. He said ALOUD to all present at JB's autopsy that what he saw was consistent with digital penetration.
I've explained before that female anatomy, even of a child that age, places the hymen up far enough that it won't be broken by insertion of a finger. I also explained that even in adult females, the hymen would not be broken by a finger or tampon because the hymen is located closer to the cervix (the entrance to the uterus).

 

[voynich]

So now you are insinuating that at age 6 JB was a lesbian?
.

Since, as I've stated b4, I consider it hard to believe an adult could insert a finger w/o rupturing the hymen of a 6 y/o, perhaps the eroded hymen is due to cunnilingus of another person of unknown age and of course, we really can't rule out females as cunnilingus is a universal lesbian sexual activity.

I'm stating that if these results are valid, she has had it done to her of unknown age/gender. I'm not making any claims about whether she reciprocated.

If a young boy is molested via fellatio by a man, does this insinuate the boy is gay?

 

[DeeDee249]

Since, as I've stated b4, I consider it hard to believe an adult could insert a finger w/o rupturing the hymen of a 6 y/o, perhaps the eroded hymen is due to cunnilingus of another person of unknown age and of course, we really can't rule out females as cunnilingus is a universal lesbian sexual activity.

I'm stating that if these results are valid, she has had it done to her of unknown age/gender. I'm not making any claims about whether she reciprocated.

If a young boy is molested via fellatio by a man, does this insinuate the boy is gay?

No. Neither is it consensual. And as far as a tongue being used- it would not reach far enough to erode the hymen. Unless the perp was Gene Simmons.

 

[voynich]

No. Neither is it consensual. And as far as a tongue being used- it would not reach far enough to erode the hymen. Unless the perp was Gene Simmons.

Just exactly how many mm from the opening of the vagina is the hymen located anyhow, in JB?

 

[BBB167893]

Just exactly how many mm from the opening of the vagina is the hymen located anyhow, in JB?

I don't know about that, but...

much as I like DeeDee, I would have to say that if the tongue penetration was repeated enough times, it could possibly erode the hymen in that way.

 

[voynich]

I don't know about that, but...

much as I like DeeDee, I would have to say that if the tongue penetration was repeated enough times, it could possibly erode the hymen in that way.

you know how in

who is the deadliest warrior? maori v.s shaolin monk etc

they use models made of ballistic gel and even pork and beef meat?

should be possible to create a similar model w/jb