Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[singularity]

Is UKGuy saying they went to the trouble to stage a crime scene but changed their mind and moved it? Or are you and UKGuy saying maybe the Ramsey's reworked some aspects of the body in one location with the intention of dumping the body in the wine cellar before calling the police?

I'm not convinced that the body was moved around after 6 am...just that it is possible. Fleet claims he didn't see her when he looked in the wine cellar and John goes 'off the grid' several times that day so there is definitely enough time for him to do such a thing.

I do agree with UK that the initial crime scene/attack wasn't in the basement. I disagree with him and Kolar that it was a 9 year old boy bashing her over the head in the breakfast bar during a pineapple snack.

Patsy might have a fairly good idea where it happened....

PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like it is on right. This is kind of strange. It kind of went out
and there is a flap that came down over the pillow.

TRIP DEMUTH: When you look at 125 you can see the blanket in that.

PATSY RAMSEY: No. I cannot.

TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in 125.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging over the door?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind of tucked back.

TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls the drapery, it pulls it back.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood or anything, do you?

and...

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing Jonbenet scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know, searching, searching, searching trying to find somebody, and trying to find who did this.

I highly doubt these flashbacks of Jonbenet screaming are memories of the basement. I'd wager this scream happened in the general vicinity of where Patsy doesn't see any blood in a photograph that contains no blood and nobody asked about blood.

She should have left this interview in handcuffs. Once John has been informed of her arrest, if he wont cop to rearranging the basement and have a logical explanation for doing so, arrest him too and as Jack would say on Law & Order, "let a jury sort it out".

If the body was being moved and/or other elements of staging were being completed after the police arrived, the Ramsey's are incredibly lucky. A logical criminal would get everything together before calling the police. The only scenario I can think of is with John remembering something incriminating and then scrambling to fix it while the police were there. I could see him panicking in Tell-Tail Heart fashion. But Arndt said he was cordial.

No proof of her body being moved after police arrive but its an indisputable fact that the scene down in the basement was evolving throughout the morning/afternoon. There's photographic proof and BPD and John admit this. They just wouldn't call him on it. This is something that any serious intruder theory would have to take into account to prevent itself from being comical....the father of the victim moving various things around in the basement while his daughter's body is down there as well. If he's innocent, why is he adding extra layers of staging for this intruder(s)? Smit should have got in his face and asked him that very question.

John cordial? He's Mr. Big CEO Man. He had plenty of time to pull himself together anyways. I cant put much stock in Arndt's opinion. I think its terrible how they left her twisting in the wind like that but she was in over her head and made crucial mistakes.I also don't buy what she's selling. She claims she's monitoring the situation, notices John's demeanor changes when he reappears. If true, why isn't SHE taking a look around the house? Instead she twiddles her thumbs for two more hours before getting the bright idea to send John and his friend on a scavenger hunt through the house. Smart.

Why dump things used in the staging in the same place as the body?

Where else were they going to dump it? I think the wine cellar and basement in general was just a catch all for all the family's secrets. Jonbenet's body...dump it in the basement. Stack of "cutesy" photographs no one wants to admit to having in their area of the house....dump em in the basement. That area of the house was the furthest they could place everything without actually leaving the house. Had they been willing to get their hands dirtier they likely would have placed her in the crawl space. They didn't not place her there for her benefit I can assure you. They were probably afraid of spiders or getting cut or scratched in that dark hole.

TOM HANEY: When is the last time you were in the basement?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I was down there on Christmas day at the washer and dryer. I was wrapping.

TOM HANEY: Was that window open then?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know because I didn't go in there. I don't know if that is what the suitcase
is doing there anyway.

She definitely knows Mr. Intruder Man didn't use it to climb out a window. What are the chances an intruder would murder a six year old girl and just happen to use a suitcase containing a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book as a step?

TOM HANEY: You are looking at 252 now, that is just a little closer photo above where -- was it
248, and there is, you pointed out the suitcase.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

TOM HANEY: Can you tell us anything about that?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that wasn't one of the suitcases that I normally use. We use the roller ones.
I think that is one that John Andrew had brought over from his college stuff, you know, like unpacked and brought the suitcase over to our house, but I didn't
think it was in there. I thought it was back in -- back there toward the cellar room more, back in the
(inaudible).

Yeah it was unpacked alright. I also don't doubt her that she thought it was initially back towards the cellar.

 

[AndHence]

Kolar details that John and Patsy both told LE, as well as others in the house that morning at various times, the doors and windows were all locked, even checked by them that morning and the night before. Kolar's information comes from police reports and interviews with those with the Ramseys that morning.

Why do you think the Ramseys (assuming they were involved) would volunteer that they checked the doors and windows and that they were all locked? Wouldn't they want to leave open the possibility that an intruder got in or did they not want to seem like negligent parents? I know John would later play up the phantom open butler kitchen door in his book, but we know now that a crime scene technician opened that door. Perhaps they wanted LE to think it was an inside job from the start -- that a housekeeper with a key might have done it and not a random intruder, for example.

 

[singularity]

Kolar details that John and Patsy both told LE, as well as others in the house that morning at various times, the doors and windows were all locked, even checked by them that morning and the night before. Kolar's information comes from police reports and interviews with those with the Ramseys that morning.

Why do you think the Ramseys (assuming they were involved) would volunteer that they checked the doors and windows and that they were all locked? Wouldn't they want to leave open the possibility that an intruder got in or did they not want to seem like negligent parents? I know John would later play up the phantom open butler kitchen door in his book, but we know now that a crime scene technician opened that door. Perhaps they wanted LE to think it was an inside job from the start -- that a housekeeper with a key might have done it and not a random intruder, for example.

Yeah they definitely had some sort of a plan in place before BPD arrived. Stating immediately that the doors were locked goes against the grain of any IDI scenario except someone with a key. Open/broken windows only became a factor later on thanks to Lou Smit. If the window(s) were a viable point of entry, John would have jumped on this that morning once going into the basement after BPD arrived. He could have run upstairs and said something like, "Hey! Look at this. Our window has been broken and someone might have climbed through this other one!". He didn't do this though because nothing was out of order to him down there.

BPD should have picked up on this immediately. A crime scene that entails a kidnapping which turns to murder seven hours later and by some coincidence there's a broken and now open window in the basement. Then take into account John's statement about the murder being an "inside job". It was very calculated.

UK brings up how there appears to be multi layering to the staging and its issues like this which prove that to be the case.

They definitely were cooking up suspects from the start. You mention the housekeeper. They also went pretty hard against Santa Bill. I'm actually surprised they didn't go after him before her.

Here's John trying to make the case...

JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- if I -- you know, if I recall this little tidbit that her mother said that JonBenet said Santa was going to come visit her the evening of the 26th, she never told us that. And if that's something they would have, you know, secretly prearranged, would have been very possible, because I think JonBenet took Santa through the house, you know, that night of the 23rd or was with him while he was there the year before, I remember that. If I came -- if I in fact -- if
in fact that's who said that to her and in fact was said, and somebody she knew, and was expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall if he wanted to.

This is deplorable. I realize some think Santa is a legitimate suspect and/or a shady character but John is overstating his case. He is saying that his six year old daughter would hop right out of bed in the middle of the night and go wherever Santa or someone else she knew wanted her to go.

Teen girls are the type to hop out of bed and go somewhere late at night. Jonbenet is six. How many six year old girls would do such a thing? He also insinuates that she is old enough to "prearrange" meetings with adults and even worse, it "would have been very possible".. This statement says a lot about John. It borders on character assassination of his own daughter but as long as it points the finger to someone else, he doesn't seem to care.

Edit: here's a comment from Patsy about Santa...

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Did JonBenet have expectations that Bill McReynolds would go by again after Christmas 1996?

PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think so.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

THOMAS HANEY: Was she ever alone with McReynolds?

PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't say alone, no. I mean we had a Christmas party going on with other people all over the house, kids, you know, and -- alone, no.

So Patsy says they were never alone but John thinks its possible that Santa and Jonbenet would prearrange secret meetings and leave the house in the middle of the night.

That doesn't add up obviously.

2nd Edit: I forgot to add that excerpt where he actually insinuates the possibility of Santa being in the house and feeding her pineapple...

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of just unfortunately after this case already jumping to the conclusion there was apparently one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was going to come visit her that night, last night, not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on my part.

LOU SMIT: Where did you hear it from?

JOHN RAMSEY: I think I heard it from our investigators. I think.

LOU SMIT: Okay?

JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. So let's, if that's true, and if the Santa Claus were somebody she knew, she adored Santa Claus, they had a special relationship. If he was the one, came into her room, as previously promised, she wouldn't have been alarmed, she would have gone downstairs with him, gone wherever he wanted. I don't know why he would have sat down and fed her pineapple, but it's possible.

LOU SMIT: Do you have any ideas who this could be?

JOHN RAMSEY: Bill McReynolds is the only Santa Claus I know. That she knows.

He even says they had a special relationship which seems to be an attempt to merely link him even closer to the "secret" Santa comment.

 

[pukasonqo2]

just finished watching werner herzog's death row doco on darlie routier who has been in death row for killing her two kids in 1996; she, like the ramseys, also blamed an intruder but the way both set of parents were treated was very different. although she was hurt she was considered and treated like a suspect from the start, very different to the way the Rs were treated


Lupus est *advertiser censored* homini, non *advertiser censored*, quom qualis sit non novit

 

[Foreign Faction]

Yeah they definitely had some sort of a plan in place before BPD arrived. Stating immediately that the doors were locked goes against the grain of any IDI scenario except someone with a key. Open/broken windows only became a factor later on thanks to Lou Smit. If the window(s) were a viable point of entry, John would have jumped on this that morning once going into the basement after BPD arrived. He could have run upstairs and said something like, "Hey! Look at this. Our window has been broken and someone might have climbed through this other one!". He didn't do this though because nothing was out of order to him down there.

BPD should have picked up on this immediately. A crime scene that entails a kidnapping which turns to murder seven hours later and by some coincidence there's a broken and now open window in the basement. Then take into account John's statement about the murder being an "inside job". It was very calculated.

UK brings up how there appears to be multi layering to the staging and its issues like this which prove that to be the case.

They definitely were cooking up suspects from the start. You mention the housekeeper. They also went pretty hard against Santa Bill. I'm actually surprised they didn't go after him before her.

Here's John trying to make the case...

This is deplorable. I realize some think Santa is a legitimate suspect and/or a shady character but John is overstating his case. He is saying that his six year old daughter would hop right out of bed in the middle of the night and go wherever Santa or someone else she knew wanted her to go.

Teen girls are the type to hop out of bed and go somewhere late at night. Jonbenet is six. How many six year old girls would do such a thing? He also insinuates that she is old enough to "prearrange" meetings with adults and even worse, it "would have been very possible".. This statement says a lot about John. It borders on character assassination of his own daughter but as long as it points the finger to someone else, he doesn't seem to care.

Edit: here's a comment from Patsy about Santa...

So Patsy says they were never alone but John thinks its possible that Santa and Jonbenet would prearrange secret meetings and leave the house in the middle of the night.

That doesn't add up obviously.

2nd Edit: I forgot to add that excerpt where he actually insinuates the possibility of Santa being in the house and feeding her pineapple...

He even says they had a special relationship which seems to be an attempt to merely link him even closer to the "secret" Santa comment.

I am bothered just as much by the Ramsey's incriminations of other people as I am by the murder and staging itself, TBPFH.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I'm not convinced that the body was moved around after 6 am...just that it is possible. Fleet claims he didn't see her when he looked in the wine cellar and John goes 'off the grid' several times that day so there is definitely enough time for him to do such a thing.

Here's my crazy notion of why JR might have moved JBR's body after the police arrive, although I don't believe that happened.

When I listened to the 911 tape, I thought I heard:
Unknown Voice: one? (as in "why are you calling nine one one?")
911: 911 Emergency
PR: Hon, we need e. POLICE!

That makes me think of the notion that JR, perhaps with an accomplice, committed the crime and wrote the note without PR knowing about. They put the body in his trunk. The note was written to explain why JR would leave early in the morning, go to some remote exhausting place, and why JBR would turn up dead. It would give him time to do all these things without police, friends, or anyone knowing or watching him, so he'd be free to make up any narrative of what he did during that time. JR was in charge of managing money-related issues, and PR was in charge of the kids. JR thought of this as a money issue, but PR saw it as a child issue and took the initiative to call the police despite his protests. Once the police arrived, he got lucky and had a chance to move the body out of the car, so he moved it to the basement.

I don't believe this scenario, though, for these reasons.

• JR's handwriting has been ruled out.
• The note has logical flaws that I don't think a successful business leader would make, even under stress.
• JR would have had to come up with some complicated story about how the kidnappers contacted him, where he delivered the money, where they told him to pick her up, and so on.
• The story about JR being able to move the body around while the police were present requires JR to be very lucky. The police could have kicked everyone out and searched the house with a SWAT team immediately. It's hard to imagine him sneaking around moving a dead body while the police were present. This would be an irrational move of desperation on JR's part, since where the body's located doesn't affect the case that much.

I don't think anyone did much evidence tampering once the police arrived. I think the RN, including the language about an exhausting delivery, was just ill-conceived verbiage designed point to anyone but the Ramsey's.

Of course, it's all wild guessing.

 

[singularity]

Yeah if the body was in the car after police arrive, John is in a pickle of biblical proportions, Too many things have to go his way and then he's got to have luck on his side as well. One thing that gets overlooked in many scenarios is that John and Patsy cant even imagine that its going to play out in the way it wound up doing. They had to expect BPD to search the whole house immediately and find her within minutes. It didn't happen. I think this threw them for a loop and would help explain John's odd behavior and silence that day. He's thinking. A LOT. He is probably going over everything in his mind wondering about mistakes or if something can be improved....which explains his multiple trips to the basement. He's dotting his i's and crossing his t's.

I don't think anyone did much evidence tampering once the police arrived.

I disagree. John has no other reason to make multiple trips to the basement or go off the grid for 60-90 minutes unless he is doing something in this vein. If John isn't adding layers of staging, what is he doing?

 

[CircuitGuy]

They had to expect BPD to search the whole house immediately and find her within minutes. It didn't happen. I think this threw them for a loop and would help explain John's odd behavior and silence that day. He's thinking. A LOT. He is probably going over everything in his mind wondering about mistakes or if something can be improved....

I agree 100% with all that.

which explains his multiple trips to the basement. He's dotting his i's and crossing his t's.

If he did that it sounds like it would more of an unplanned, nervous, Tell-Tale Heart type of thing. He's lucky nervous i-dotting didn't cause him to get found out.

 

[AndHence]

One of the non-evidential facts of the case that I feel points away from an intruder is the date of the crime -- Christmas night. This is an odd night for an intruder to pick for a home invasion/kidnapping/ransom/molestation/murder attempt. Christmas is a time of year when a lot of houses are filled with extended family members and oftentimes families aren't even around for the holidays altogether. If the intruder was someone who knew the family and their schedule, why not come for JonBenet when John was away on one of his many business trips? The risks of being caught during a home invasion are much higher on Christmas night, imo. Anyway, feel not enough is made about the timing of the crime. This is an atypical event at an atypical time.

 

[Foreign Faction]

One of the non-evidential facts of the case that I feel points away from an intruder is the date of the crime -- Christmas night. This is an odd night for an intruder to pick for a home invasion/kidnapping/ransom/molestation/murder attempt. Christmas is a time of year when a lot of houses are filled with extended family members and oftentimes families aren't even around for the holidays altogether. If the intruder was someone who knew the family and their schedule, why not come for JonBenet when John was away on one of his many business trips? The risks of being caught during a home invasion are much higher on Christmas night, imo. Anyway, feel not enough is made about the timing of the crime. This is an atypical event at an atypical time.

Awesome post, AndHence, this is something I have always thought about but never seen mentioned anywhere! In fact, one might argue this is one of the most important rationales against the IDI theories.

 

[InstantProof]

One of the non-evidential facts of the case that I feel points away from an intruder is the date of the crime -- Christmas night. This is an odd night for an intruder to pick for a home invasion/kidnapping/ransom/molestation/murder attempt. Christmas is a time of year when a lot of houses are filled with extended family members and oftentimes families aren't even around for the holidays altogether. If the intruder was someone who knew the family and their schedule, why not come for JonBenet when John was away on one of his many business trips? The risks of being caught during a home invasion are much higher on Christmas night, imo. Anyway, feel not enough is made about the timing of the crime. This is an atypical event at an atypical time.

I have seen this topic touched on here once or twice. Something else to consider is the intruder would have to be free to commit this crime at a time of the year that most people are somewhere and accounted for. Free Christmas night? Maybe this is the reason to make him foreign?

 

[AndHence]

Each member of the Ramsey household can't be eliminated. John has the least amount of forensic evidence linking him to the crime yet his bogus story about breaking the window and his actions on the morning of the crime after the police showed up suggest involvement. Patsy has the most forensic evidence linking her to the crime (fibers and the note), so she can't be ruled out at all. Burke has been in a black box since the investigation began but the more we learn about his statements and behavioral characteristics, the more suspicious he appears.

 

[mickey2942]

I believe that the Ramsey's were always covering up for someone. We never really did get the complete information from them. The lies were too convoluted and complicated to be the truth.

 

[chlban]

Each member of the Ramsey household can't be eliminated. John has the least amount of forensic evidence linking him to the crime yet his bogus story about breaking the window and his actions on the morning of the crime after the police showed up suggest involvement. Patsy has the most forensic evidence linking her to the crime (fibers and the note), so she can't be ruled out at all. Burke has been in a black box since the investigation began but the more we learn about his statements and behavioral characteristics, the more suspicious he appears.

But didn't the bogus story about breaking the window come out later? I haven't read one of the books in a while, but I thought he initially insisted on everything having been locked, which could indicate innocence.

I have always leaned toward his not having been involved, but I think once he read the RN, it started to dawn that something wasn't right. I think Patsy inviting half of Denver over that morning may have been to make it difficult for him to ask many questions. I have also often thought their behavior to one another that morning to be beyond strange. I have seen divorced parents show more unity than these two did. However, if you are slowly realizing that you wife just wrote a really weird Ransom Note and your child is missing, I could see where that might not lend itself to a lot of sympathy for said wife.

I do believe he recognized the truth and proceeded to protect the perpetrator which makes him a piece of crap IF it was Patsy. If, OTOH, it was Burke, that is, at least, more understandable.

If it was Burke that delivered the initial blow, and Patsy that did the rest, he may have thought he had to protect her in order to also protect Burke. Yes, I know Burke could not have been prosecuted in CO., but I can also see a parent wanting to just protect their child from the stigma of having caused the death. Because initially, he may well have believed the head blow to have killed her. He may have initially believed all the staging was done after her death. Patsy may have believed that as well.

No way am I trying to defend either of these people, just trying to make the pieces fit, as I have for almost 20 years.

 

[BoldBear]

So it was Patsy because of the ransom note and because John didn't rant? So Patsy wrote about beheading her daughter, talked about not receiving her remains, and went on to repeat the word dies over and over? Then she got in a couple of snipes about growing a brain and using that common sense. That does make me think. And that whole thing about not being able to hear JB that night was just a ruse. This paints a very dark and disturbed woman. That's really creepy.

 

[chlban]

So it was Patsy because of the ransom note and because John didn't rant? So Patsy wrote about beheading her daughter, talked about not receiving her remains, and went on to repeat the word dies over and over? Then she got in a couple of snipes about growing a brain and using that common sense. That does make me think. And that whole thing about not being able to hear JB that night was just a ruse. This paints a very dark and disturbed woman. That's really creepy.

Yes, I would think one thing we can all agree on is that "creepy" pretty much covers what happened that night. As for who was responsible for it, well there is far less agreement on that. I have long alternated between Patsy on her own, and Burke inflicting the head blow and Patsy doing the staging. Although I am far less convinced that John was involved (other than covering later, once he figured it out, which I don't think took long), I still consider his involvement a possibility.

The only thing I am 100% convinced of is that someone, or 2 or 3 someone's that lived in that house are responsible. I have read, re-read and watched everything available for close to 20 years and I believe, beyond any doubt, reasonable or not, that there was no intruder.

 

[singularity]

So it was Patsy because of the ransom note and because John didn't rant? So Patsy wrote about beheading her daughter, talked about not receiving her remains, and went on to repeat the word dies over and over? Then she got in a couple of snipes about growing a brain and using that common sense. That does make me think. And that whole thing about not being able to hear JB that night was just a ruse. This paints a very dark and disturbed woman. That's really creepy.

She's emasculating John in the final third portion of the note.

The whole scene that night was creepy, especially if they had the lights off and were using night vision goggles and flashlights for any length of time.

While chlban seems to be giving John a free pass on that night's events, I will not. He just happened to be taking a shower at the moment Patsy "found" the note? Yeah....sure. He was getting ready for a very horrifying day and may have been showering to remove potential evidence, I also don't buy him turning himself into a contortionist while reading the note in his underwear on his knees yet wouldn't pick it up.

There's a pack of dogs in this case that wont hunt....that being one of them. He already knew what that note said. Its why he wouldn't pick it up and read it.

 

[FrankieB]

Patsy gives me the chills. I may have focused on her a lot more than John (who had a few oddities himself) but when you put everything together, truth, half truth or hearsay, it paints a very disturbing picture, emphasis on children resulting in encopresis, the hair bleaching, possible involvement in the ransom note, the phone calls to the pediatritian, "she's the strangest person I've ever met" housekeeper comment, the talking to herself, the splayed fingers, not moving when Jonbenét was discovered, the reaction to selected pieces of evidence, the wardrobe repetition, denial of facts, the picture with hearts drawn on it, the punishing of jonbenét for soiling herself, the nutty mother (Nedra) and obscure father (a possible abuser), the list goes on and on...

 

[BoldBear]

But John wouldn't touch the ransom note.

 

[mickey2942]

In my work, I have come across some very dysfunctional families, that have family "norms", that 99% of "normal" families would not even begin to believe. Once, you suspend your entire belief system of how a "normal" family unit acts, behaves, thinks, the entire scenario of Patsy killing JBR, because of jealousy, rage, whatever and Patsy blackmails John into covering up for her, or she spills all about his child molestation of JBR, then, the entire scene begins to make some dysfunctional sense.