Are there other victims?

[Billylee]

the 2600 block of telegraph is about 2 blocks away from People's Park - maybe .15 miles at the most

Perhaps this was his first victim. The one he bragged to Katy about. (I know it says she went to meet someone named Jeff, but really, if you were going to rape and murder someone, I doubt you'd tell them your real name.) I wonder if Berkeley PD is looking PG's whereabouts at that time. If PG was into "black lights" and music and LSD back then, well Berkeley would have been the place to be.

Which brings me to another thing I've been wondering about PG. If this guy was really into music as much as it seems he was, he would have been attending some his favorite bands concerts around the bay area. People were sharing drugs at concerts all over the place back then. Wonder if he'd get high at a concert and then go looking for victims? I've been kinda trying to tie in the missing/murdered to concerts, but so far no luck. Just a thought anyway.

 

[Billylee]

This is about Lisa Norrells case, not Jaycee's, but I couldn't find a thread under cold cases for her and I just wanted to post this. Don't these two composites look awfully similar?

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=31738

http://www.pollyklaas.org/missing/kids/page.jsp?itemID=27067308

I'd bring the image's over, but I still don't know how, and that should really be done under Lisa's thread, but I can't find that either!

 

[SunnieRN]

This is about Lisa Norrells case, not Jaycee's, but I couldn't find a thread under cold cases for her and I just wanted to post this. Don't these two composites look awfully similar?

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=31738

http://www.pollyklaas.org/missing/kids/page.jsp?itemID=27067308

I'd bring the image's over, but I still don't know how, and that should really be done under Lisa's thread, but I can't find that either!

Gteat finds Billylee!!! I think it's time to open a Lisa Norrell thread if one does not exist. Maybe more sleuthers involved will bring about even more leads or pieces to the pg puzzle!!

 

[time]

Perhaps this was his first victim. The one he bragged to Katy about. (I know it says she went to meet someone named Jeff, but really, if you were going to rape and murder someone, I doubt you'd tell them your real name.) I wonder if Berkeley PD is looking PG's whereabouts at that time. If PG was into "black lights" and music and LSD back then, well Berkeley would have been the place to be.

Which brings me to another thing I've been wondering about PG. If this guy was really into music as much as it seems he was, he would have been attending some his favorite bands concerts around the bay area. People were sharing drugs at concerts all over the place back then. Wonder if he'd get high at a concert and then go looking for victims? I've been kinda trying to tie in the missing/murdered to concerts, but so far no luck. Just a thought anyway.

They might be now. I keep forgetting he told her that. But when did he tell Katy that, I thought when he raped her so wouldn't that victim be before 1996?

The victims are piling up that we know about.

14 yr old
someone he told Katy about
a woman an hour before he kidnapped Katy
Katy
Jaycee

 

[Billylee]

They might be now. I keep forgetting he told her that. But when did he tell Katy that, I thought when he raped her so wouldn't that victim be before 1996?

The victims are piling up that we know about.

14 yr old
someone he told Katy about
a woman an hour before he kidnapped Katy
Katy
Jaycee

Lynn Ruth Connes disappeared 5/20 1976.

 

[time]

This is about Lisa Norrells case, not Jaycee's, but I couldn't find a thread under cold cases for her and I just wanted to post this. Don't these two composites look awfully similar?

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=31738

http://www.pollyklaas.org/missing/kids/page.jsp?itemID=27067308

I'd bring the image's over, but I still don't know how, and that should really be done under Lisa's thread, but I can't find that either!

They do look similar - I can never tell much by sketches though! The height is quite a bit different but they both have wide faces and what looks like a stalky build. Ears look really similar.

They keep saying the guy they are looking for in the Lisa Norrell case " is not a suspect in the investigation". I kept reading that in the news articles. It also seemed to me that they had quite a bit of forensic evidence in Lisa's case?

 

[time]

Gteat finds Billylee!!! I think it's time to open a Lisa Norrell thread if one does not exist. Maybe more sleuthers involved will bring about even more leads or pieces to the pg puzzle!!

I couldn't find one for her either!

 

[time]

Ruth disappeared 5/20 1976.

I'm sorry, I'm all confused here. I was still thinking about that question someone asked about 1991!

 

[Billylee]

I'm sorry, I'm all confused here. I was still thinking about that question someone asked about 1991!

that was a reported rape near P's Park in 1991.

Hey, this stuff IS confusing!

 

[Billylee]

They do look similar - I can never tell much by sketches though! The height is quite a bit different but they both have wide faces and what looks like a stalky build. Ears look really similar.

They keep saying the guy they are looking for in the Lisa Norrell case " is not a suspect in the investigation". I kept reading that in the news articles. It also seemed to me that they had quite a bit of forensic evidence in Lisa's case?

They sure do and the one from the berkeley pd says it's supposed to be a really good likeness. They looked awful close to me, because I had just gone to read about Lisa's case, which I hadn't done yet, and earlier in the day I was at the Berkeley pd site, and when I saw that face on the Norrell case, I was like :waitasec: I saw that face somewhere earlier today, so then I had to back track to where I'd seen it.

 

[time]

I hadn't seen that before either but her name seems familiar. I know there's a Tahoe connection with JC and Katherine Callaway (I couldn't believe when they talked to the man in charge of JCs case originally and he said we didn't look at Garrido. At least he's honest-I guess)

Looking at the PG timeline thread it has PG at Clayton Marsh Creek Det Centre in 1969. Not known for how long. Then first marriage in Nevada in 1973.

That link has this:
"Phillip Garrido graduated from Liberty High School in 1969 and moved to Reno shortly afterward, his brother said. He fled California after learning that fellow drug dealers “had a contract out on him,” Ron Garrido said."

Was he in detention after graduating and before moving to Reno? I'm thinking he was as, if my geography serves me correctly, Reno is just inside of Nevada. Or could he have served a spell in detention whilst at school? All it points to really is that he knew the Tahoe area as he probably passed through on he's way to Reno when he fled California.

You can't help but ponder if it was him though. I know it can help to look at other crimes for patterns i.e K.Callaway (he said he wouldn't kill her) but it's not known what plans he had for her really. Even if he planned to let her live and it was him with Donna Ann Lass who's to know what state of mind a 19/20 year old PG+just out of detention+acid was in. He might not of even planned to kill her and with acid in the mix he did and it was an accident or something.
Did the detective in charge of JCs case not look at PG because he was looking for patterns as well. I can't believe a detective would cross somebody off the list, even though he'd committed a sex-related crime in the area, because it was on an adult and not a minor.

Just putting Lass' name in wiki now I see where I must of read it before. The Zodiac Killer has been connected with Lass but unconfirmed and he(?) was never caught.
If you've never read about the Zodiac Killer and thinking that he(?) and PG might be the same person I don't think so. Unless it's a side of PG we don't know about. I don't think there were any sex-related crimes.

Thanks Jake - I had missed the info on him being in a detention center.

Your thoughts about looking at patterns are interesting because we don't really know if Garrido would have had victims he killed. You are right that he would travel through Tahoe to Reno and may have haunted those areas. I think he went back and forth from there to Antioch/Brentwood and perhaps from there back and forth to the Bay Area near SF and Berkeley.

I thought about the Zodiac also just because it's unsolved and it reminded me that there were also a series of murders in Sacramento in the 70's that are unsolved. They gave the killer a nickname also but I can't remember it off hand (maybe "eyes" something).... I think these are the murders (they mention Lass there also).

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/sacramento_murders.html

Yes, Reno is just over the line in Nevada. Many people make the trip from the Bay Area or from Sacramento to Reno or Tahoe on a regular basis.

 

[time]

Here is another link to the Sacramento victims - most of them appear to be nurses...

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/vm,phillip,arthur,thompson,zodiac,12,11,07.htm

The other link talks a bout many more victims.

What I wonder as others have, is if Garrido could have had other partners help him - male or female. Maybe the MO would look different? What bothers me is that Garrido did become violent with his first wife - esp the safety pin thing kind of freaked me out. So maybe, he has other victims that just don't look like the ones we know about? I guess it's possible.

It is funny that some murders in different areas just stopped altogether or for long periods of time - indicating someone was put in prison perhaps?

 

[SunnieRN]

Thanks Jake - I had missed the info on him being in a detention center.

Your thoughts about looking at patterns are interesting because we don't really know if Garrido would have had victims he killed. You are right that he would travel through Tahoe to Reno and may have haunted those areas. I think he went back and forth from there to Antioch/Brentwood and perhaps from there back and forth to the Bay Area near SF and Berkeley.

I thought about the Zodiac also just because it's unsolved and it reminded me that there were also a series of murders in Sacramento in the 70's that are unsolved. They gave the killer a nickname also but I can't remember it off hand (maybe "eyes" something).... I think these are the murders (they mention Lass there also).

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/sacramento_murders.html

Yes, Reno is just over the line in Nevada. Many people make the trip from the Bay Area or from Sacramento to Reno or Tahoe on a regular basis.

Katie was raped in 1976, not 1996, so any previous cases had to occur prior to 1976. He could have been referring to the 14 year old victim in the bay area, but the Las Vegas one is a mystery to me as we have no clue when he would have been there. That is why it got me thinking about the transient population in San Francisco area and the fact that maybe the victim was from Las Vegas and not killed IN Las Vegas.

You do NOT have to go through Lake Tahoe to get to Reno. From Sacramento you can go 50 to Lake Tahoe or 80 to Reno. You can travel from one to the other, going through Carson City, but you do not have to go through Lake Tahoe to Reno. You can also take the route through where the Cartwright ranch, from the Bonanza show is.

There are also back roads from Antioch to Sacramento, (along the river) and these roads can lead you all the way through the foothills toward Placerville on Hwy 50. Beautiful country. There are also roads that connect highway 50 in Placerville, to Hwy 80 in Auburn.

 

[kbl8201]

august 14th 1991.
kind close to the proximity of the time he abducted jaycee (barely more then 2 months after)

 

[time]

Katie was raped in 1976, not 1996, so any previous cases had to occur prior to 1976. He could have been referring to the 14 year old victim in the bay area, but the Las Vegas one is a mystery to me as we have no clue when he would have been there. That is why it got me thinking about the transient population in San Francisco area and the fact that maybe the victim was from Las Vegas and not killed IN Las Vegas.

You do NOT have to go through Lake Tahoe to get to Reno. From Sacramento you can go 50 to Lake Tahoe or 80 to Reno. You can travel from one to the other, going through Carson City, but you do not have to go through Lake Tahoe to Reno. You can also take the route through where the Cartwright ranch, from the Bonanza show is.

There are also back roads from Antioch to Sacramento, (along the river) and these roads can lead you all the way through the foothills toward Placerville on Hwy 50. Beautiful country. There are also roads that connect highway 50 in Placerville, to Hwy 80 in Auburn.

I should have said he could travel through Tahoe to get to Reno. It seems like he traveled between the two, however he went? Probably more likely he would travel through Sacramento to get to Reno if starting out in Antioch or the Bay Area. I've been on those backroads between Antioch and Sac!

 

[SunnieRN]

I should have said he could travel through Tahoe to get to Reno. It seems like he traveled between the two, however he went? Probably more likely he would travel through Sacramento to get to Reno if starting out in Antioch or the Bay Area. I've been on those backroads between Antioch and Sac!

Just trying to keep things clear for people out of the Bay Area. My thought is Reno also, as he lived there with Christine in 1973 until his arrest.

 

[my2sisters]

I ran across this archived article on Lisa Norell and didn't know if it was already posted. I found it interesting now that we know more about her case. I hope I posted it in the right place!

http://www.sfgate.com/e/a/1999/01/07/NEWS3544.dtl

Police say slain teen was a random victim <
AH: Antioch pair held in Pittsburg girl's killing didn't
know her<
LE: PITTSBURG - It was Lisa Norrell's fatal bad luck to be
spotted walking home late at night on a lonely road by two
cruising Antioch ne'er-do-wells, who, police believe,
forced her into their car and killed her.

 

[time]

I ran across this archived article on Lisa Norell and didn't know if it was already posted. I found it interesting now that we know more about her case. I hope I posted it in the right place!

http://www.sfgate.com/e/a/1999/01/07/NEWS3544.dtl

Police say slain teen was a random victim <
AH: Antioch pair held in Pittsburg girl's killing didn't
know her<
LE: PITTSBURG - It was Lisa Norrell's fatal bad luck to be
spotted walking home late at night on a lonely road by two
cruising Antioch ne'er-do-wells, who, police believe,
forced her into their car and killed her.

I wish we knew more of the specifics, but I have a feeling these two were not the killers, maybe even set-up. Their cars were searched, I believe I put somewhere that they found tire tracks and made casts, and so on. Who knows what forensics they had, but it seems to me all they had to go on was Shoemake claims, who says he got the info from his sister-in-law, who is the ex wife of one of the suspects. I think the suspects, or one of them, did have a significant criminal record, but it wasn't for anything related to this kind of crime. I don't know, maybe I need to go read if there was anything else significant they had on these two.

 

[time]

She had cuts and bruises on her chin and neck, and some blood and body fluids had been found on her sweatshirt.

On December 7, three tips about the Norrell case alerted the police to two Pittsburg men with a history of crime: David Michael Heneby, 25, and Garry Lee Walton, 39 (See SUBJECTS). After a short period of surveillance, police arrested the two on January 6, 1999 on suspicion for the murder of Lisa Norrell.

Immediately after these arrests, a press conference was held in front of Police Headquarters, where police shared their theory on what had happened.

The Contra Costa Times reported that Walton and Heneby, who allegedly did not know Lisa, were driving and stopped her a few hundred yards east of Nav-Land. Lisa was forced into Walton's car, which Heneby was driving, and killed a short time later after resisting their sexual attack, the paper said. "Sources near the case said that after Lisa was in the car, one or both of the men approached her sexually. After one of the men touched her, she insulted him, the sources said. He then became enraged and attacked the girl, they said."

[how on earth did they come up with this?]

However, Walton and Heneby were released barely 24 hours after their arrests when Contra Costa County District Attorney Gary T. Yancey decided there was not enough evidence to bring charges against them (See TIMELINE).

Heneby is currently serving a six-year sentence for domestic violence and assault charges. He is still believed to be a strong suspect, although police refuse to comment on the issue. The connection between Heneby and Walton has never been made clear, nor have the reasons that motivated police to arrest them

.

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/lisa/case.html

In the affidavit justifying the warrants, police cut 50 of the 71 pages, leaving a vague and disconnected picture of the investigation. Some pages are completely whited out except for a sentence or two. The redacted version fails to explain why police suspected Heneby and Walton or what exculpatory evidence prompted police not to charge them.

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/lisa/records.html

Shoemake's niece was married to David Michael Heneby (See SUBJECTS), then the primary suspect in the Norrell investigation.

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/lisa/shoemake.html

Frustrated, the women filed a civil suit against Shoemake and his wife on June 30, 1999, seeking unspecified monetary damages for the girls' pain and suffering. Shoemake faces 15 charges, ranging from continuous sexual abuse of a child to intentional infliction of emotional distress. His wife, Linda Shoemake, who is accused of knowing about the abuse and attempting to conceal it, is charged with negligence.

Since the girls came forward, Shoemake has resigned from his 27-year post as a captain in the Contra Costa County fire department. He was a deacon at Harvest Time Assembly of God in Brentwood, but a spokesman for the church said Shoemake is no longer a member...

Larry E. Cook, the Walnut Creek attorney who represents the girls, said, "It was not for lack of evidence that they dropped the criminal charges." ...

Although plea bargaining often results in reduced sentences, Cook said it is highly unusual for felony charges to be dropped altogether. Judge John M. Allen, who presided over Shoemake's December criminal hearing, thought the case was too strong to be dismissed. According to court records (See RECORDS), he added another count to the charges, ruling there was "sufficient cause to believe Duanne Shoemake is guilty."

.

 

[Billylee]

I ran across this archived article on Lisa Norell and didn't know if it was already posted. I found it interesting now that we know more about her case. I hope I posted it in the right place!

http://www.sfgate.com/e/a/1999/01/07/NEWS3544.dtl

Police say slain teen was a random victim <
AH: Antioch pair held in Pittsburg girl's killing didn't
know her<
LE: PITTSBURG - It was Lisa Norrell's fatal bad luck to be
spotted walking home late at night on a lonely road by two
cruising Antioch ne'er-do-wells, who, police believe,
forced her into their car and killed her.

I find it interesting that there's such an age difference between these two suspects. One is 39 and the other 24, 15 years. Most 40 year olds don't hang out with 25 year olds. Weird. Were there ever pictures posted of these two guys?