Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

I'm not sure if I will be able to put this into words on here correctly so please follow with me...


I base my broken identity theory on the belief that many people carry within them the seeds for severe mental illness and it is only under the right conditions that these seeds sprout and take root.

In my theory here, my belief is that there was no or a very, very poor identity. Very low self-esteem. In the background was the seeds of a narcissist. (Remember that Narcissus was not always this way but BECAME what he was).

YES, right on target. Human beings are not "things" but "processes".

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Reading the media thread beginning from page one, I came to the post where JA begins to explain to the detective what may have happened to her psychologically. In post #166 on January 15th, she introduces the idea that she may be experiencing the "butterfly effect" which is a new concept to me.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - *graphic and adult content* Jodi Arias Trial media/ timeline thread **no discussion**

Notice the date when the man who came up with the theory died, April 2008.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/obit-lorenz-0416.html
obituary of Edward Lorenze, father if chaos theory and butterfly effect

Read the dialogue from the 2004 film here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Butterfly_Effect


A few posts prior to the post in which JA introduces the term "butterfly effect", I noticed that TA had made two longish phones calls to JA in the early morning hours of June 2, 2008. The first call was made at 03:04 and was 17 mins 25 secs long; the second call was placed at 03:21 and lasted 41 mins, 21 secs.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - *graphic and adult content* Jodi Arias Trial media/ timeline thread **no discussion**

When did JA find out she wasn't going with Travis to Cancun?
When she was told she would no longer be the woman going with him, it may have been the "something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing" that set off the "typhoon" that followed.

In my mind, the chain of events leading up to the murder has to be presented clearly to the jury including the steps or missteps that TA took leading up to JA's actions. The scenario can't be left up to the individual jurors' imaginations. As I'm reading through the earliest testimony, the way it unfolds, JA seems to be giving us the answers. She thinks she's providing excuses as she tiptoes towards making a confession but, to me, she's revealing what was going on with her psychologically regarding her relationship with TA.

If she found out she wasn't going to Cancun with TA weeks before June 4, yet he urged her to come visit him (long phone calls early June 2) before he left for Cancun with another woman, that could have been too much for her to handle despite her claims that she was happy to be his friend with benefits. What might has been worse is if she found out she wouldn't be going with him as late as June 4. Since she planned on visiting that other guy around these same dates, I don't think that's the case though, right?
Does anybody know if TA wanted/invited JA there on June 4 or did she just show up on his doorstep?

I've asked these questions before but I can't find/piece together the concrete answers to them. The answers would help me (and the jurors) get a clear picture of how the events that led up to JA killing TA influenced her decisions. Why would he want her at his house if they were finished and he had moved on to other women? This mind muddle has to be explained/cleared up to make sure the jurors can think straight when deciding a verdict.

One more question, did JA back out of the trip herself? If so, is it a proven fact that she did?

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Jodi Arais has way more problems than just being a Narcisist.

She has (most likely) an Anti-Social PD.

This video clip gives me the chills. I do think she would kill again. It's truly haunting.

I wonder though, is she speaking to Travis or Flores?

I can see reasons for both.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=i8LfAMSIVfc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=i8LfAMSIVfc

That was very chilling, that she may have been giggling to herself about TA still getting one over on her even though he's dead.

I can believe she is very much at peace with herself now about Travis. After all, he's in a "better place" and is "at peace" now himself. It doesn't matter how we get to heaven as long as we get there. She just helped the process along. That's why she can sit on the witness stand and calmly and with perfect poise, answer questions and not sob and say she's so sorry she killed him. The world may call it a crime, but she knows better...

 

[SMK]

Reading the media thread beginning from page one, I came to the post where JA begins to explain to the detective what may have happened to her psychologically. In post #166 on January 15th, she introduces the idea that she may be experiencing the "butterfly effect" which is a new concept to me.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - *graphic and adult content* Jodi Arias Trial media/ timeline thread **no discussion**

Notice the date when the man who came up with the theory died, April 2008.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/obit-lorenz-0416.html
obituary of Edward Lorenze, father if chaos theory and butterfly effect

Read the dialogue from the 2004 film here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Butterfly_Effect


A few posts prior to the post in which JA introduces the term "butterfly effect", I noticed that TA had made two longish phones calls to JA in the early morning hours of June 2, 2008. The first call was made at 03:04 and was 17 mins 25 secs long; the second call was placed at 03:21 and lasted 41 mins, 21 secs.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - *graphic and adult content* Jodi Arias Trial media/ timeline thread **no discussion**

When did JA find out she wasn't going with Travis to Cancun?
When she was told she would no longer be the woman going with him, it may have been the "something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing" that set off the "typhoon" that followed.

In my mind, the chain of events leading up to the murder has to be presented clearly to the jury including the steps or missteps that TA took leading up to JA's actions. The scenario can't be left up to the individual jurors' imaginations. As I'm reading through the earliest testimony, the way it unfolds, JA seems to be giving us the answers. She thinks she's providing excuses as she tiptoes towards making a confession but, to me, she's revealing what was going on with her psychologically regarding her relationship with TA.

If she found out she wasn't going to Cancun with TA weeks before June 4, yet he urged her to come visit him (long phone calls early June 2) before he left for Cancun with another woman, that could have been too much for her to handle despite her claims that she was happy to be his friend with benefits. What might has been worse is if she found out she wouldn't be going with him as late as June 4. Since she planned on visiting that other guy around these same dates, I don't think that's the case though, right?
Does anybody know if TA wanted/invited JA there on June 4 or did she just show up on his doorstep?

I've asked these questions before but I can't find/piece together the concrete answers to them. The answers would help me (and the jurors) get a clear picture of how the events that led up to JA killing TA influenced her decisions. Why would he want her at his house if they were finished and he had moved on to other women? This mind muddle has to be explained/cleared up to make sure the jurors can think straight when deciding a verdict.

One more question, did JA back out of the trip herself? If so, is it a proven fact that she did?

I think her visit to the other guy (what was his name? Ryan?) was just a ruse, an excuse to visit Travis. As usual, I think she allowed Travis to believe she was just out on a lark, up for fun, when in reality this visit to Travis meant the world to her, and she was desperate to win him back.

Its now been said that he had taken her name off the Cancun trip and replaced it with Mimi's (who told Travis, ironically, that she only wanted to be friends. How odd that the women he pursued such as Mimi and Lisa seemed rejecting of him (Lisa did not want to marry him; Mimi said she would go to Cancun but not as a date, only as a friend) while the one woman who was obsessed with him left him indifferent.

Some have suggested that since Jodi bought 2 bottles of sunblock on her trip, that she believed either a. that she was still booked or b. that she could convince him to still take her. No doubt, this was the catalyst.

 

[crimesnooper]

I'm not sure if I will be able to put this into words on here correctly so please follow with me...


I base my broken identity theory on the belief that many people carry within them the seeds for severe mental illness and it is only under the right conditions that these seeds sprout and take root.

In my theory here, my belief is that there was no or a very, very poor identity. Very low self-esteem. In the background was the seeds of a narcissist. (Remember that Narcissus was not always this way but BECAME what he was).

So you have this person with the personality/identity void and along comes someone that gives her that attention. ~sprouts the seed.

She in her mind grabs on to this ray of hope, this CHANCE to become something better, to become someone to 'show' those who had hurt her and put her down in the past.

So she builds on this.

In my opinion, one of the quickest ways to get yourself killed by a group of people is to challenge their belief systems particularly as it relates to their RELIGION. (It's historically true, it happened to Jesus).

When you think about this then consider how profound it is for JA to actually CONVERT to another religion simply to please TA.

New hair,
New look,
New friends,
New boyfriend,
New places to hangout and live
New religion.

(Looks a lot like building blocks to me).

She is now building a new identity. And from the looks of it, it's certainly an identity above what she started with. I dare say it's even grandiose in her mind.

And new career

 

[slanda]

That was very chilling, that she may have been giggling to herself about TA still getting one over on her even though he's dead.

I can believe she is very much at peace with herself now about Travis. After all, he's in a "better place" and is "at peace" now himself. It doesn't matter how we get to heaven as long as we get there. She just helped the process along. That's why she can sit on the witness stand and calmly and with perfect poise, answer questions and not sob and say she's so sorry she killed him. The world may call it a crime, but she knows better...

I completely agree with you. I really resonate with your analysis.

Yes, it's very haunting. And weird. Sorry, my vocabulary has failed me when it comes to describing her. That one statement and the noises she makes in that room are so chilling and bizarre.

I have thought the same thing regarding what you said about helping TA along to his afterlife... I truly thinks she believes that. She probably even tries now to "talk to his spirit" ... Lord only knows.

She is truly Anti-Social. I said somewhere before (it was removed after someone had a meltdown and freaked out on me in this thread) that she is like Ted Bundy. I think she is so baffling because ASPD's make up just 1% of the population and they're so depraved on so many levels that they are almost indescribable as much as they are unbelievable. And to watch a female AS is just almost incomprehensible. -- Not saying they don't exist, but they aren't so well documented as she is.

I think she is far beyond the point of narcissism, beyond having no sense of self, and beyond anyone's actually full understanding.

 

[crimesnooper]

I found the 20's, particularly the late 20's, as being very, very difficult. On paper, my life looked great. Right education, right job, right husband ect. Until one day, after many panic attacks out of the blue, I realized I could not hear the sound of my own voice. I had so many "shoulds." There was nothing about me that I felt was authentic. Swallowed a bucket of courage and started asking myself what were my values really, not my parents or friends. What were mine and what did I want? I think that time period is when young adults really DO start defining themselves for real. Some development specialists consider the lates 20's the true end of adolecense. For me, I did the unthinkable.Quit my noble career, got an adnvanced degree in a completely different field..left my husband. And pretty funny, after I enetered grad school, I never had a panic attack again.( ok a tiny one a few years ago during cancer treatment but ... that radiation machine is a scary SOB.) The last 30 years have been awesome and I certainly can hear my own voice LOL

 

[IBsleuthin]

Thanks - and yes, I do see that, and as for the bolded, often really a fine line between suicide and homicide.

As Rilke says, "Killing is a form of our wandering mourning."

I agree that psychopathology can remain latent until a catalyst sparks the action. I think Jodi's dyed hair, breast implants, covering the more modest Mexican-looking girl gave her the ability to go after a Travis (himself a more than a bit grandiose in his presentation)---had she remained looking as she naturally was, and gone for a more modest guy, the ending would have I am sure been less tragic.

Lisa was not particularly impressed with Travis: Found him too controlling, cheating , non-supportive, demeaning of her aspirations to be a teacher, and too hungry for compliments.

I had forgotten about the breast implants. Talk about a literal transformation!

 

[IBsleuthin]

Actually, in stark contrast to the poster this was a response to, I am in fact a person who felt horribly at 27; mainly because of my family background and having been through far too many things I should never have been exposed to.

I am sure JA did in fact feel badly at 27 despite her facade: I wonder if there was similar pathology in her family, as their was in mine (it can do a major, major number on you, even and especially if you are not involved in the pathology). Court reports don't tell the real daily story, so we cannot be sure. I know my husband thought my family was fine until he got to know them as the years unfolded, at which point he found them frightening and bordering on evil. I reacted by being a passive victim, though no doubt so react by becoming narcissistic and pathological.

For some reason, my smiley faces over here --> don't want to work. I was going to give you a hug. I have to be very careful because I'm reading these too fast when my blood sugars are low and I'm not reading them right.

I am sorry for what you went through. Don't kick yourself for reacting with the passive/victim stance. It may very well have saved your life. The last thing people like that want around is someone who will take a stand and you may very well have sensed that at a very early age.

For about the last eight years I have been chatting with a person online. My friends think I'm nuts! They say..."What if he comes to find you and tracks you down and kills you!!"

Then I remind them that I already have had the most violent, dangerous and damaging people in my life and they were the very people who were suppose to love me.

Thank you for sharing these details of your life. You absolutely and positively are correct 100% that court records do NOT accurately show the story. Hugs.

 

[SMK]

For some reason, my smiley faces over here --> don't want to work. I was going to give you a hug. I have to be very careful because I'm reading these too fast when my blood sugars are low and I'm not reading them right.

I am sorry for what you went through. Don't kick yourself for reacting with the passive/victim stance. It may very well have saved your life. The last thing people like that want around is someone who will take a stand and you may very well have sensed that at a very early age.

For about the last eight years I have been chatting with a person online. My friends think I'm nuts! They say..."What if he comes to find you and tracks you down and kills you!!"

Then I remind them that I already have had the most violent, dangerous and damaging people in my life and they were the very people who were suppose to love me.

Thank you for sharing these details of your life. You absolutely and positively are correct 100% that court records do NOT accurately show the story. Hugs.

Thanks for the words, your own story, and the hugs. :blowkiss:

 

[SMK]

I had forgotten about the breast implants. Talk about a literal transformation!

Yes, even in pictures you can see that she really was attempting a total transformation: Trying to look less Mexican, more Anglo, more Mormon, to fit in with Travis. It was actually a bad fit, not the real self at all. And thus was on a collision course.

 

[ISeeSociopaths]

ReallY? Are you being sarcastic or did you totally misunderstand what I said? I felt very good about myself when I was 27.

When i was 27 I was newly engaged to the man who is still my husband all these years later. I had completed college and gotten my teaching credential and had been teaching elem school for 4 years. I was enjoying my job very much and I was having success & joy in teaching young children. I was feeling competent that my teaching skills were improving and I was becoming a good teacher. This had been one of my dreams! I was in love and felt loved by my fiance. I had excellent relations with my family. I had very good friends. I went on nice trips. I had just bought my own condo the year before. I was doing volunteer work at a hospital. I had a new car. My health was good. Life in general was very, very good. I felt the future was bright. Looking back I feel very blessed that I had so many GOOD things in my life.

I saw that too-I'm glad you piped up! You were imagining what it must be like to walk in HER shoes....and you realized that it seemed like skipping and falling into Hell.

 

[shelley921]

I saw that too-I'm glad you piped up! You were imagining what it must be like to walk in HER shoes....and you realized that it seemed like skipping and falling into Hell.

thank you yes i was IMAGINING how it must have sucked to be Jodi at 27.
My life was going great at age 27th.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

That's just awful. My mother was a splitter too, when I asked her why she had never told me she loved me, she didn't answer. Meh

bbm ~ Thank you for using the term "splitter" to refer to a concrete description of a mother's relationship to her children. In another case, these various terms were introduced and I still have trouble conceptualizing what some of them mean upon hearing them.

One of my closest friends has these types of relationships going on within her family and it's her mother who it seems is at the helm. When my friend began describing a big blow up that happened within her family and that her mother turned against her (because my friend refused to enable her any longer), I had trouble believing her version of the story (but kept that to myself). I've known this family since I was nineteen years old, so for over thirty years, and have always thought they placed their mother on a pedestal (though I couldn't understand why exactly). As long as she was allowed to run the show and people bowed down to her and her dictates, all looked well from the outside looking in. Since I care about my friend and want to understand her issues so as not to be at odds with her, this is a big light bulb moment for me. Her sister is most definitely a splitter too. Years ago she told my friend to leave her husband because he didn't buy her fine jewelry. I was present when she said this and spoke up and said that ____ is a good man and she should stay out of their business. Besides, jewelry had nothing to do with their problems. That was years ago and the sister would just step over me if I fell down right in front of her - ha! My friend and her husband are still married - going on thirty-two years.

I'm so sorry for anyone whose own mother inflicts this kind of pain on a child no matter how old the child is. That's why understanding what's going on is vital to healing and for realizing that you're not the one who is nuts allowing one to separate from the identity of their mother. Sometimes it takes almost a lifetime to understand an ongoing damaging dynamic that's negatively affecting a group of people.

 

[SMK]

That's just awful. My mother was a splitter too, when I asked her why she had never told me she loved me, she didn't answer. Meh

:furious:

 

[SMK]

bbm ~ Thank you for using the term "splitter" to refer to a concrete description of a mother's relationship to her children. In another case, these various terms were introduced and I still have trouble conceptualizing what some of them mean upon hearing them.

One of my closest friends has these types of relationships going on within her family and it's her mother who it seems is at the helm. When my friend began describing a big blow up that happened within her family and that her mother turned against her (because my friend refused to enable her any longer), I had trouble believing her version of the story (but kept that to myself). I've known this family since I was nineteen years old, so for over thirty years, and have always thought they placed their mother on a pedestal (though I couldn't understand why exactly). As long as she was allowed to run the show and people bowed down to her and her dictates, all looked well from the outside looking in. Since I care about my friend and want to understand her issues so as not to be at odds with her, this is a big light bulb moment for me. Her sister is most definitely a splitter too. Years ago she told my friend to leave her husband because he didn't buy her fine jewelry. I was present when she said this and spoke up and said that ____ is a good man and she should stay out of their business. Besides, jewelry had nothing to do with their problems. That was years ago and the sister would just step over me if I fell down right in front of her - ha! My friend and her husband are still married - going on thirty-two years.

I'm so sorry for anyone whose own mother inflicts this kind of pain on a child no matter how old the child is. That's why understanding what's going on is vital to healing and for realizing that you're not the one who is nuts allowing one to separate from the identity of their mother. Sometimes it takes almost a lifetime to understand an ongoing damaging dynamic that's negatively affecting a group of people.

Yes, spot on. I did not begin to understand how deeply disturbed the dynamic really was with my own mother and sisters until I was about 40, and its taken another decade to finish grasping what was really behind so much of what went on in our family. One needs another life after this one to fix it all.:furious:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

(bolded by me)

This most likely is at the forefront of Juan's entire case. How to deal with the perception that Jodi Arias is whomever the viewer sees her as.

Very interesting that you were able to state this outright.

I've re-read your post here probably 4-5 times and I just want to say how deeply SORRY I am that you felt this way about yourself.

'Usually' (I despise the word normally) or I guess commonly would be a good word too, young adults in their late 20's are feeling good about themselves.

They have usually gotten better paying jobs, the satisfaction of being independent, they have usually established support systems of friends and co-workers outside their family circle.

Usually their identity is beginning to form. Physically they have reached a peak and often look their best as well.

I find it very sad that at age 27 you didn't feel good about yourself.



I sincerely hope you find happiness now.

I'm assuming the poster is much older now and am not even sure she said it was she who felt badly about herself at age 27, but she was only imagining what it must be like to feel badly about oneself at that age ??????

The response to shelley's post doesn't sound sincere to me. Most people, after they grow past stuff, aren't seeking other peoples' sympathy for what used to be anyway. Growth happens at different times for different people if at all.
:what: I'm confused.

 

[Cate49]

Just wanted to post how much I've enjoyed everyones discussion. It seems that we are able to look at the trial from different vantage points. I have learned much and have been inspired to gain more knowledge about personality disorders, emotional disorders ect.
Much thanks to everyone that has spoken of their lives with or around mental disorders. We learns so much more when it comes from personal experience. Adding too that people have been respectful to each other. My hope is that this will continue to teach, debate, support and everything else that begins with compassion.

 

[SMK]

Just wanted to post how much I've enjoyed everyones discussion. It seems that we are able to look at the trial from different vantage points. I have learned much and have been inspired to gain more knowledge about personality disorders, emotional disorders ect.
Much thanks to everyone that has spoken of their lives with or around mental disorders. We learns so much more when it comes from personal experience. Adding too that people have been respectful to each other. My hope is that this will continue to teach, debate, support and everything else that begins with compassion.

Nice post.

 

[Cate49]

Does anyone know if alice L has seen crime photos of Travis. I would hope so it may give her some insight. She may see that the Pendulum of dangerous violent abuse swings to Jodi not Travis