Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[scandi]

We have an open, current thread for this discussion in Crimes here: Natalee Holloway - Possible New Physical Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks,

Salem

Thanks Salem, Just had to say how good it is to see you again. Ya Ya
xox Of to the other thread :turkey:

PS: I was lookin' for the 'great' green crock walking away, can't find him, but this turkey will have to do. xox

 

[Frigga]

IMO, its hers and they know it, they are just checking and rechecking and triple checking... otherwise they would have come out by now and stated it isn't hers.

 

[hollyblue]

I think posters should consider how outraged PERUVIANS would be if JVDS were suddenly whisked off to Aruba and out of Peruvian hands.

The answer, I suspect, is that Peruvians would be just as outraged as Americans have been that one of our nationals was killed and her alleged killer remains outside our control. Only more so, because THEY had the suspect in their custody, which Americans never did.

IMHO, there's no way the government of Peru wants to face that degree of public anger, no matter what bribes are offered.

Joran ain't going anywhere in my lifetime. (I'm 56.)

As much as I've seen the Aruban authorities spit in the face of Beth and others in this case, imo, it's totally possible. Does anyone know what JVS's possible sentence would be in Aruba if he was guilty of murdering NH? Could he in fact be charged with murder or would it have to be a lesser offense...like voluntary manslaughter or getting rid of a body? Would credible witnesses be found to testify against him?

Also, does anyone know if Beth has sent a individual representative to the Netherland's to be there when the testing was done? I think I would, and her and Dave surely thought about it. Who's to say it could be anyone's jaw bone and they just say it's NH's to put the case to rest????

 

[hollyblue]

What if there is no DNA left to test and one tooth is not enough for a dental comparison?

Only speculation, but if the remains of the jaw bone had been in water all this time and not dried out, (salt water??) they may be able to extract DNA from the bone. ??

 

[scandi]

You know what I don't understand? Why they asked for dental records.

There is nothing better than a DNA identification. I am wondering if they couldn't extract any DNA.

I asked the same question Fluffy and was told they sent the dental impressions in case there wasn't enough material inside the tooth for a DNA test. Makes sense, eh?

xox

 

[scandi]

I didn't hear that broadcast, but I doubt the Dutch call Baden to offer inside info.

I suspect Baden was speaking of a tooth in general, not this particular tooth.

Whether the single tooth attached to the recovered jawbone has DNA will depend on whether the enamel of the tooth was breached by wear and tear since the death of its owner.

Yea Nova, I think that is why they sent the dental impressions of the tooth. Good point there Nova.

xox

 

[georger]

These are different approaches to the issue of probability from what I was asking, but I appreciate the thinking. I don't know if a bone found in Aruba MUST have originated in Aruba, or whether it could have been carried there from Venezuela, for example.

But on the whole, I agree with you that the probability that the jawbone is from NH is high.

My question was re the reliability of a one-tooth match to dental records. I'm speculating dental records are far less reliable when there isn't a full set of teeth to which the records can be compared. (And so LE may well want a DNA match before making an announcement.)

Its my understanding files were emailed and "molds" of Natalie's teeth
were sent by Special Delivery - Certified.

If there is a mold for the tooth, a match should be possible.

 

[georger]

Whether the single tooth attached to the recovered jawbone has DNA will depend on whether the enamel of the tooth was breached by wear and tear since the death of its owner.

In general thats true. dna is extracted from the 'pulp' (former living tissue)
which is inside the nerve canal all surrounded by dentin. Since molars
have multiple roots, there are multiple opportunities for a sample. Keep
in mind even a 'partial' will be helpful, if not determinative.

There are a lot of very experienced forensic people watching all of this.
We have entered the OJ phase!

 

[georger]

Does anyone find it unusual that we haven't heard anything about the American tourists who found the bone? I haven't heard their names or where they were from. When the couple from Pennsylvania found the photo of a "skeleton" that turned out to be a coral reef it was all over the news.

I share your concern! Why havent these people been named and
surfaced? Who are these FINDERS? It sounds like they saw a bone
and picked it up ... not thinking. Did they even mark the location?
Probably not.

 

[scandi]

But if it isn't Natalee then they have another (allegedly) young white female's remains on their hands. And IIRC they said there are no other missing persons fitting that description.

I can't imagine they'd be wanting to scream that from the rooftops, especially if they care more about tourism and the mighty dollar than justice.

I do hope this is confirmed to be Natalee so that her family and loved ones, as well as all the people who have followed the case so closely can have some closure, and so that JVDS pays for what he has done.

JMO

I think there a couple of other missing women but would have to go research it having only heard of this being mentioned since the jawbone was found. One was a gal who disappeared from a boat and one disappeared from another island I think.

Since the skull in the trap looks like it was missing the jawbone I would bet this could be Natalee. Also, if it isn't her bone I think we would have already heard this by now. Just my thoughts is all.

xox

 

[Carrington]

I share your concern! Why havent these people been named and
surfaced? Who are these FINDERS? It sounds like they saw a bone
and picked it up ... not thinking. Did they even mark the location?
Probably not.

I watched a part of a rerun of NG tonight. and she said they were from Massachusetts. So....she must know who they are and is negotiating a price for appearance. Can you imagine the line......
IMO

 

[FLNY]

DNA analysis for most investigations takes weeks, if not months.

As of last Thurs., Nov. 18, the NFI at the Hague estimated the DNA testing to take about a week.

"If the bone is human, authorities will then attempt to find out through DNA testing whether it belongs to Holloway...

It is being evaluated at the Netherlands Forensic Institute in The Hague, Netherlands, Aruban prosecutor Peter Blanken said this week....

Holloway's dental records were sent to the forensic institute on Wednesday [Nov. 17], the FBI said....

The length of testing can vary, but normally takes about a week, according to a representative of the institute."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/18/aruba.bone.found/index.html?eref=rss_crime

 

[otto]

I think posters should consider how outraged PERUVIANS would be if JVDS were suddenly whisked off to Aruba and out of Peruvian hands.

The answer, I suspect, is that Peruvians would be just as outraged as Americans have been that one of our nationals was killed and her alleged killer remains outside our control. Only more so, because THEY had the suspect in their custody, which Americans never did.

IMHO, there's no way the government of Peru wants to face that degree of public anger, no matter what bribes are offered.

Joran ain't going anywhere in my lifetime. (I'm 56.)

I completely agree. Anita did what she could to get Joran out of Peru and to the Netherlands using the mental defect argument, and it didn't work. As she said, if he did this, then he has to suffer the consequences and she has no intention of even visiting him in jail. I highly doubt that Anita is now in possession of a completely decomposed and skeletonized body, and that she is sneaking around leaving bones to be found on the beach. She knows perfectly well that Joran has no choice but to accept the punishment in Peru, somewhere between 6 and 35 years, before he returns to Aruba, meaning she has no reason to leave bones anywhere.

 

[Carrington]

Maybe Beth's last interview with Joran, touched someones heart.
IMO

 

[otto]

As of last Thurs., Nov. 18, the NFI at the Hague estimated the DNA testing to take about a week.

"If the bone is human, authorities will then attempt to find out through DNA testing whether it belongs to Holloway...

It is being evaluated at the Netherlands Forensic Institute in The Hague, Netherlands, Aruban prosecutor Peter Blanken said this week....

Holloway's dental records were sent to the forensic institute on Wednesday [Nov. 17], the FBI said....

The length of testing can vary, but normally takes about a week, according to a representative of the institute."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/18/aruba.bone.found/index.html?eref=rss_crime

I hope so.

Posted Nov 16 - rough translation below each paragraph

"Het Nederlands Forensisch Instituut verwacht binnen een dag te weten of het om dierlijk of menselijk botmateriaal gaat, zegt een woordvoerder. "Aan het uiterlijk kun je zelfs niet zomaar zien of het om een mens of een dier gaat."

The NFI expects to know within one day if the bone is animal or human. It's not possible to tell by looking at it if it is animal or human.

"Als het inderdaad om het bot van een mens gaat, kan het weken duren voordat het DNA met het DNA van Holloway is vergeleken. "Het is moeilijk om een DNA-profiel uit botweefsel te halen, vooral als het buiten heeft gelegen."

If it's a human bone, it can take weeks before the DNA is compared to Holloway. It is difficult to obtain a DNA profile from bone material, especially if it has been lying outside.

http://binnenland.nieuws.nl/618442/nfi_onderzoekt_of_gevonden_bot_van_holloway_is

 

[FLNY]

I hope so.

Posted Nov 16 - rough translation below each paragraph

"The NFI expects to know within one day if the bone is animal or human. It's not possible to tell by looking at it if it is animal or human.

If it's a human bone, it can take weeks before the DNA is compared to Holloway. It is difficult to obtain a DNA profile from bone material, especially if it has been lying outside.

http://binnenland.nieuws.nl/618442/nfi_onderzoekt_of_gevonden_bot_van_holloway_is

BBM

Looks like 2 days later, the NFI shortened that timeframe to one week!

Nov. 18: "The length of testing can vary, but normally takes about a week, according to a representative of the institute."

 

[otto]

BBM

Looks like 2 days, the NFI shortened that timeframe to one week!

Nov. 18: "The length of testing can vary, but normally takes about a week, according to a representative of the institute."

That's great. I think that means that they expect that they will be able to extract DNA from the tooth without too much difficulty. I think it also means that they have made testing of this bone a priority, and I think Beth and Dave will be thankful for that. I recall that in the Morgan Harrington case it took a couple of months to test DNA that was found at the scene. In many other cases that I've followed, DNA testing usually takes a very long time. There's something to be said in terms of good will if the NFI is analyzing this right away and delivering results at the earliest possible time.

I skimmed some comments from Peter de Vries, and he thinks that this bone is not connected with Natalee, but that it is putting the parents through a very difficult time, once again, where they have hope that may again come to nothing.

 

[georger]

That's great. I think that means that they expect that they will be able to extract DNA from the tooth without too much difficulty. I think it also means that they have made testing of this bone a priority, and I think Beth and Dave will be thankful for that. I recall that in the Morgan Harrington case it took a couple of months to test DNA that was found at the scene. In many other cases that I've followed, DNA testing usually takes a very long time. There's something to be said in terms of good will if the NFI is analyzing this right away and delivering results at the earliest possible time.

I skimmed some comments from Peter de Vries, and he thinks that this bone is not connected with Natalee, but that it is putting the parents through a very difficult time, once again, where they have hope that may again come to nothing.

De Telegraaf said that tourists spotted the bone in the sand on Riba Beach which
flanks the Divi Aruba Phoenix Resort - new map attached. Note the wing dams. If this
is the find location then this is not an ordinary beach front facing the ocean but a literal
catch basin created by the construction of two wing dams. The very purpose of those wing dams is to catch sand a create more beach head. Compare the beach front between these wings to any beach front elsewhere ...

How this connects to the bone found in this location, I do not know. But the special nature
of this location compared to all other beach front in the area must be noted.

 

[Tadpole12]

It very well might not be her. But, it's someones daughter.
Wonder if any other young white females are missing on the island?
Not that I know of, did I miss this news?

IMO

http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/another-american-girl-missing-with-aruba/

While Aruba does damage control over fears that their tourism industry may suffer, reports have surfaced that Natalee Holloway is not the only young American girl to disappear there.
From The Hawaii Channel:

Another family said they know exactly what the parents of Natalee Holloway, the Alabama teenager who has been missing in Aruba since last week, are going through. They've been dealing with the same nightmare for seven years.

The Bradleys, of Virginia, went on a cruise in 1998 and Aruba was one of the stops. That's where their daughter disappeared.

Iva Bradley said her 23-year-old daughter, Amy, befriended three men who worked on the cruise ship and they wanted to take her to a bar in Aruba.

"They said they wanted to take her to a bar on Aruba that was called Carlos and Charlie's," said Bradley. "She made a face and said 'I wouldn't get off the ship with any of those guys anyway. That's creepy.'"

Amy Bradley was last seen in her cabin at 5:15 a.m. By 6 a.m., she was nowhere to be found....


​

Read more: http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/another-american-girl-missing-with-aruba/#ixzz15zwIargO​

 

[otto]

De Telegraaf said that tourists spotted the bone in the sand on Riba Beach which flanks the Divi Aruba Phoenix Resort - new map attached. Note the wing dams. If this is the find location then this is not an ordinary beach front facing the ocean but a literal catch basin created by the construction of two wing dams. The very purpose of those wing dams is to catch sand a create more beach head. Compare the beach front between these wings to any beach front elsewhere ...

How this connects to the bone found in this location, I do not know. But the special nature of this location compared to all other beach front in the area must be noted.

My gut reaction is that it connects quite a bit. If this is the area where there is an inlet to the bird sanctuary, which someone posted earlier allows water flow between the lake and the ocean, and Joran said that he put Natalee in the bird sanctuary - but it was not searched because it was a sensitive area and the timelines were off - maybe Joran was telling the truth when he said that he put Natalee in the bird sanctuary, knowing that the environmentally sensitive area would not be disturbed unless they were sure that it was a true story. If Joran put Natalee in the lake at the Bird Sanctuary (which was on his way home), and water/weather has moved her jaw bone closer to the beach, shortly after her mother visited (for the first time) that would be great.