Asia Argento, a MeToo Leader, Made a Deal With Her Own Accuser

[KALI]

I do hope that this is not why Anthony killed himself.

 

[blue22]

I think this brings up something we need to talk about in our society. What do we do when a victim becomes a perpetrator? (I do believe she was a victim previously.) The crime against them was still a crime. The crime they commit is still a crime. The law is black and white about this stuff. (I know previous trauma is often brought up to juries in trials, of course.) But...what do we do with the moral side of it? Do we view the now perpetrator as less of a victim, or more of a perpetrator? It's really murky and hard to wade through. As a general society, we don't talk about it much...there is plenty of anger, but no thoughtful discussion.

I wish that there was a focus in studying this sort of thing. I worked for our advocacy center for years. Our worst of the worst cases, were perpetrated by victims who were also abused. This is totally anecdotal based on what I saw, but I would love if society invested in researching. What if we can reach victims and prevent this sort of cycle before it starts?

 

[PaulR]

I think this brings up something we need to talk about in our society. What do we do when a victim becomes a perpetrator?

They're now a perp and we treat them as such.

Example: A fairly large number of child molesters were molested themselves as kids. At the same time, most who were molested never do anything to hurt another child. Somehow most victims avoid ever doing it to others, so there doesn't seem to be much of an excuse for the ones that do.

I think the way you stop the cycle is by locking up these molesters and throwing away the key.

 

[human]

There is now a very good aproach. Adverse Childhood Experiences . There are laws in place where social workers, police, doctors look at a situation and determine trauma intervention.

There is so much info here. It is the best thing ever.

ACEs Too High

 

[blue22]

They're now a perp and we treat them as such.

Example: A fairly large number of child molesters were molested themselves as kids. At the same time, most who were molested never do anything to hurt another child. Somehow most victims avoid ever doing it to others, so there doesn't seem to be much of an excuse for the ones that do.

I think the way you stop the cycle is by locking up these molesters and throwing away the key.

To be very clear, she is absolutely a perpetrator. I wasn't suggesting she should not be held accountable legally, or that this is an excuse or justification.

I don't think all we do is lock away the key. I think we should talk about abuse and talk about it often. Should we not want to find out IF there are ways to breaking cycles of abuse? Absolutely, many (most?) people who experience abuse and trauma don't go on to repeat. But, there are cycles and patterns of abuse. Some do. Should we not want to talk about this as a society? Cases like these are loud and opens a door that generally remains shut and locked. I am NOT saying this woman should or can blame her crimes on trauma she experienced. I'm saying that it opens the door to larger conversations....that we tend to avoid as a society.

 

[flourish]

This does bring up some issues like the cycle of abuse.

I had already thought she was icky and appears very narcissistic. But now, extra double icky sex offender gross! And the twisting people are doing in order to support her seems so incredibly hypocritical!! I hate the double standard! When a male teacher molests a student, everyone is quick to condemn him, but when a woman teacher molests a student, everyone makes "hot for teacher" jokes. And then like, at my job--when I was a teacher, I could go help a kid in the bathroom (preschoolers) no problem, but if my male counterpart was going to help a kid in the bathroom, someone had to witness it. And at my current job, we can have female caregivers who are allowed to care for minor males, but our male caregivers can't care for minor females. It's so wrong.

There is no way she did not know he was underage--she'd known him as a child. He didn't even look like he needed to shave more than once a month in that "post-coital" photograph. And the "long lost son" erotic vibe thing is just so gross. It was obvious what she was excited about, and it wasn't an innocent reunion. And she told her friend, in writing, that they had sex. She posed with him in bed in a state of undress...she crossed many lines.

What happened to believing victims? Oh how the tides have turned. Disgusting.

When I was 25, I met this cute guy one day. We get talking, and flirting then I'm like, "how old are you?" thinking he's about 22, and he says, "I'll be 17 next week." I said, "how old do you think I am????" He says, "Like 24?" I was like, why are you hitting on me, bro?!?!? No!!!! GROSS.

I don't even see how a person could be ...."into it," IFYKWIM

Ugh the "long lost son" keeps grossing me out. I know I said it already, but it really bothers me because she was a kind of mother figure for this poor kid. Abhorrent.

 

[Satchie]

To be very clear, she is absolutely a perpetrator. I wasn't suggesting she should not be held accountable legally, or that this is an excuse or justification.

I don't think all we do is lock away the key. I think we should talk about abuse and talk about it often. Should we not want to find out IF there are ways to breaking cycles of abuse? Absolutely, many (most?) people who experience abuse and trauma don't go on to repeat. But, there are cycles and patterns of abuse. Some do. Should we not want to talk about this as a society? Cases like these are loud and opens a door that generally remains shut and locked. I am NOT saying this woman should or can blame her crimes on trauma she experienced. I'm saying that it opens the door to larger conversations....that we tend to avoid as a society.

I think this is a type of 'domestic violence' because it involves people in an intimate relationship, rather than strangers. And what is regarded as acceptable and unacceptable domestic relationships have been recently changing in our society. Not so long ago, hitting your wife and kids for disobeying you wasn't a crime.
Seducing a young woman or man, getting them drunk and taking them to bed was a notch on your belt, not rape.

I do think society should protect people who are in the vulnerable position and encourage them to know and stand up for their rights. But mostly I want people to understand that it's wrong to take advantage of other people, and just not do it in the first place.

Unfortunately, when we take a strategy of locking them all up, there are two things that tend to happen: the perp becomes defensive: I did nothing wrong. So they won't admit it was an error and won't learn anything. Secondly, the people who they've abused, and who may actually still love them, often won't particpate if the consequence is jail. What those people really want is for the abuser to admit they were wrong, and reform.

We'll see whether the victim in this case wants to press charges and have her 'locked up', it's up to him, not us.

 

[jjenny]

The alleged incident of sex with 17 year old happened five years ago in 2013. Not fifty years ago. I don't think what is acceptable changed that much during these five years. There absolutely is a double standard because a lot of people wouldn't be so understanding if a 37 year old male was accused of having sex with a 17 year old female, especially if he knew that female since she was a little girl. And the issue I see with a "me too" is that they want all accusers to be believed. But some accusations are bound to be false. So then what happens when the shoe is on the other foot? I guess they want evidence then.

 

[flourish]

I think this is a type of 'domestic violence' because it involves people in an intimate relationship, rather than strangers. And what is regarded as acceptable and unacceptable domestic relationships have been recently changing in our society. Not so long ago, hitting your wife and kids for disobeying you wasn't a crime.
Seducing a young woman or man, getting them drunk and taking them to bed was a notch on your belt, not rape.

I do think society should protect people who are in the vulnerable position and encourage them to know and stand up for their rights. But mostly I want people to understand that it's wrong to take advantage of other people, and just not do it in the first place.

Unfortunately, when we take a strategy of locking them all up, there are two things that tend to happen: the perp becomes defensive: I did nothing wrong. So they won't admit it was an error and won't learn anything. Secondly, the people who they've abused, and who may actually still love them, often won't particpate if the consequence is jail. What those people really want is for the abuser to admit they were wrong, and reform.

We'll see whether the victim in this case wants to press charges and have her 'locked up', it's up to him, not us.

Is it up to him only? I mean he can refuse to cooperate, but like with domestic violence victims sometimes don't want to press charges but it happens anyway?

 

[jjenny]

Is it up to him only? I mean he can refuse to cooperate, but like with domestic violence victims sometimes don't want to press charges but it happens anyway?

I don't see any prosecution happening without his cooperation.

 

[flourish]

I don't see any prosecution happening without his cooperation.

I get that but is it impossible to charge a perp in this kind of case without the victim? I wouldn't think so. I get why they wouldn't if the victim won't cooperate, but technically, legally they could, right?

 

[PaulR]

To be very clear, she is absolutely a perpetrator. I wasn't suggesting she should not be held accountable legally, or that this is an excuse or justification.

I don't think all we do is lock away the key. I think we should talk about abuse and talk about it often. Should we not want to find out IF there are ways to breaking cycles of abuse? Absolutely, many (most?) people who experience abuse and trauma don't go on to repeat. But, there are cycles and patterns of abuse. Some do. Should we not want to talk about this as a society? Cases like these are loud and opens a door that generally remains shut and locked. I am NOT saying this woman should or can blame her crimes on trauma she experienced. I'm saying that it opens the door to larger conversations....that we tend to avoid as a society.

I agree but I don't remember hearing a lot about this after Spacey and Weinstein and others were fingered. Just wondering if there is a double standard here.

 

[PaulR]

Unfortunately, when we take a strategy of locking them all up, there are two things that tend to happen: the perp becomes defensive: I did nothing wrong. So they won't admit it was an error and won't learn anything. Secondly, the people who they've abused, and who may actually still love them, often won't particpate if the consequence is jail. What those people really want is for the abuser to admit they were wrong, and reform.

We'll see whether the victim in this case wants to press charges and have her 'locked up', it's up to him, not us.

A lot of offenders will just reoffend. If so then they need to be locked up. Washington State has a facility for these people, called McNeil Island. Regardless of whether a victim wants to see their abuser jailed - and you can see from the Catholic Church and Sandusky scandals that many do want to see them in prison - victims also understand that the abusers cannot be in a position where they can do it to another person.

In this case a 17 year old boy cannot give consent and it is rape just like any other case where a man has sex with a woman without her consent. Society doesn't see this yet, wasn't it Barbara Walters who called the Mary Kay LeTourneau case a "love story"?

 

[jjenny]

I get that but is it impossible to charge a perp in this kind of case without the victim? I would think so. I get why they wouldn't if the victim won't cooperate, but technically, legally they could, right?

Prosecutor isn't supposed to try a case unless he/she believes there is enough evidence to get a conviction. Without alleged victim testifying, what chances are there of getting a conviction?

 

[flourish]

Prosecutor isn't supposed to try a case unless he/she believes there is enough evidence to get a conviction. Without alleged victim testifying, what chances are there of getting a conviction?

Okay. I don't know why this is confusing. I'm not asking if it's a good idea or likely or typical. I'm asking if it's legally possible.

 

[blue22]

I agree but I don't remember hearing a lot about this after Spacey and Weinstein and others were fingered. Just wondering if there is a double standard here.

In our society, there is absolutely a double standard!! Look at the stories of female teachers and male students. They are absolutely treated differently.

Spacey and Weinstein weren't publicly claiming to be a victim before they were accused, were they? I don't remember. Her very publicly and passionately talking and pressing about being a victim is what gets these questions going. But, yes...there are double standards.

 

[sloane7777]

She denies it? Should the accusers be believed or not? Isn't "me too" movement all about believing the accusers?

Its really complicated , yes and no and it depends on the situation and apparently this guy has tried to glean money before so there is that ....but she was assaulted by HW before this , sexual assault does a weird thing to your sex drive , I really have a hard time thinking she could do the same to this boy, Frankly after an assault you can go years and years without recovering from it , if at all , much less wanting to do it to someone else I'm going to wait for the investigation, shes probably not in the best frame of mind with the suicide ,if she is truly innocent (Which I want to believe )he could easily push her over the edge

 

[flourish]

Its really complicated , yes and no and it depends on the situation and apparently this guy has tried to glean money before so there is that ....but she was assaulted by HW before this , sexual assault does a weird thing to your sex drive , I really have a hard time thinking she could do the same to this boy, Frankly after an assault you can go years and years without recovering from it , if at all , much less wanting to do it to someone else I'm going to wait for the investigation, shes probably not in the best frame of mind with the suicide ,if she is truly innocent (Which I want to believe )he could easily push her over the edge

Okay but there is a photo of her in bed in a state of undress with this kid when he was underage. And she admitted to her friend she had sex with him. She apparently agreed to date and or sleep with weinstein after her assault but she was still assaulted. I don't get why we are expected to believe her but not this kid.

 

[blue22]

Okay but there is a photo of her in bed in a state of undress with this kid when he was underage. And she admitted to her friend she had sex with him. She apparently agreed to date and or sleep with weinstein after her assault but she was still assaulted. I don't get why we are expected to believe her but not this kid.

It's interesting.

I don't see how she can be innocent. (Unless it's proven the texts weren't hers?) Even if the texts themselves weren't from her, the picture happened and how does one explain that away? I don't see why this guy shouldn't be believed. I don't see why he shouldn't have been listened to before they came out, either.

 

[jjenny]

She did have the relationship with Weinstein after the alleged assault of her by him.
"The relationship with Mr. Weinstein continued for years afterward and sometimes included sex, The New Yorker reported."
Asia Argento, a #MeToo Leader, Made a Deal With Her Own Accuser