ATLANTIC CITY SK: possible link to LISK and GB4?

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FYI, those who are interested in the Atalntic City serial killer case.

There is NO DNA in the AC serial killer case, so noone could have been eliminated as a suspect due to DNA:

http://www.examiner.com/article/no-dna-atlantic-city-prostitute-murders-black-horse-strangler-case

No DNA in Atlantic City Prostitute murders, Black Horse Strangler case
November 18, 2009

Quote:

"The water washed away any DNA that might have been there," said one investigator familiar with the case.


Another thing to think about is the FACT that Kim Raffo knew at least 2 of the other AC4 victims, and she possibly also even knew the 4th victim.

Here is a link to that back up this information:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

SO...could it really be a coincident that the AC4 serial killer choose to kill, at least 3, possibly 4 victims, who knew each other???

I don´t think so!

I haven't read up the case in a while, but I remember something, that one of the victims was attacked a while before and spent time in a hospital. There was something, that her chords were still damaged and she wasn't out soliciting business at all. Which technically means, the killer would have got her "not on duty".
And another victim, I remember, was the day running some unspecified errands, so also not soliciting. I have to look it u, I can't remember right now which of the victims those two were.
Also a point that made me think: All victims had drugs in their system. The heroin addict heroin, the meth addicts meth and the alcoholic alcohol. Which would mean, the killer either had a wide variety of drugs at hand, which would cost quite some money, or he knew beforehand, which drug he would need for which victim.
That would extend your suspicion that the four victims may knew each other to, the killer knew all four of them as well?
 
I haven't read up the case in a while, but I remember something, that one of the victims was attacked a while before and spent time in a hospital. There was something, that her chords were still damaged and she wasn't out soliciting business at all. Which technically means, the killer would have got her "not on duty".
And another victim, I remember, was the day running some unspecified errands, so also not soliciting. I have to look it u, I can't remember right now which of the victims those two were.
Also a point that made me think: All victims had drugs in their system. The heroin addict heroin, the meth addicts meth and the alcoholic alcohol. Which would mean, the killer either had a wide variety of drugs at hand, which would cost quite some money, or he knew beforehand, which drug he would need for which victim.
That would extend your suspicion that the four victims may knew each other to, the killer knew all four of them as well?

As far as I know there has been no information that Tracy Ann Roberts didn´t "work" even though she had been attacked ca 2 weeks prior to her disappearence.
Neither have I read anything about that "her chords were still damaged and she wasn't out soliciting business at all"
So could please find the source of that information?


The other victim you are refering to is Barbara Breidor.

In her case I also have seen no info that says or prove that she, as you claim, was "not soliciting" that day.

I mean it is absolutely NOT possibly for any of us to know what Barbara Breidor did or did not do that day she disappeared.


And concerning who of the AC4 that knew each other, it is according to the newsreports for sure that Kim Raffo knew both Molly Dilts and Tracy Ann Roberts, concerning Barbara Breidor it is possible that Kim Raffo also knew BB, but not 100% sure.

But I agree that if the drugs/alcohol that was found in the victims was all their prefered drug/alkohol, that could point to that the killer was prepared and knew what drug/alcohol they liked, and therefore possibly knew all the victims OR he knew somone who knew all the victims and whom had told him about them.

So, as a theorie, IF he knew all the victims, possibly due to beeing very close to one of the 4 victims and through that relationship had met the other victims, he might have contacted them as a "friend", and offered them drugs7alcohol.


Here is info on when/circumstances the AC4 victims was last seen:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/18/48hours/main2825050_page4.shtml

February 28, 2008:


Quotes:


On Oct. 7th, 20-year-old Molly Dilts called her family and then vanished


On Oct. 17th, Barbara Breidor left the house in nearby Ventnor where she was living with a friend. When she never returned, her sisters Fran and Val eventually tried to file a missing persons report.


(Nov 15 ca.)
Sometime in mid-November. A street hustler named Dante said he went clothes shopping with Tracy Roberts. She bought the outfit she was wearing when her body was found.“She said, ‘I'll be back in like a hour,’” Dante remembers. “She never came back.”

(Nov. 19th)
Papa Joe may be the last person to see her, early in the morning on Sunday, Nov. 19th. He says he saw Kim get into a car. “I literally threw her out of here after I fed her and opened the car door. And she said hi to the guy, whatever. And he said hello. And then, they left,” he recalls
 
As far as I know there has been no information that Tracy Ann Roberts didn´t "work" even though she had been attacked ca 2 weeks prior to her disappearence.
Neither have I read anything about that "her chords were still damaged and she wasn't out soliciting business at all"
So could please find the source of that information?

I can't find the article where this "Kim Possible" talked about Roberts didn't go for business those days (it was short after she left hospital). But this article confirms at least that her voice became a whisper after that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/nyregion/05slay.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The other victim you are refering to is Barbara Breidor.

In her case I also have seen no info that says or prove that she, as you claim, was "not soliciting" that day.

The very same article as linked above states she was on a two hours errand from which she didn't return. Other, older articles had that fact stated as well, but I have no time now to look which links are still working, which ones not, this has been years.

I mean it is absolutely NOT possibly for any of us to know what Barbara Breidor did or did not do that day she disappeared.

But you would agree, that her friends, she lived with at the time, could know?


And concerning who of the AC4 that knew each other, it is according to the newsreports for sure that Kim Raffo knew both Molly Dilts and Tracy Ann Roberts, concerning Barbara Breidor it is possible that Kim Raffo also knew BB, but not 100% sure.

Not sure, I agree, but given, that the main strip in Egg Harbor isn't that long and they had to visit the same drug dealers from time to time, it is likely. As likely as for many other prostitutes there at the time to know each other at least by sight.

But I agree that if the drugs/alcohol that was found in the victims was all their prefered drug/alkohol, that could point to that the killer was prepared and knew what drug/alcohol they liked, and therefore possibly knew all the victims OR he knew somone who knew all the victims and whom had told him about them.

So, as a theorie, IF he knew all the victims, possibly due to beeing very close to one of the 4 victims and through that relationship had met the other victims, he might have contacted them as a "friend", and offered them drugs7alcohol.

But, as consequence from the theory, one should look rather for someone who was in the scene, not just an occasional John.


Here is info on when/circumstances the AC4 victims was last seen:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/18/48hours/main2825050_page4.shtml

February 28, 2008:


Quotes:


On Oct. 7th, 20-year-old Molly Dilts called her family and then vanished


On Oct. 17th, Barbara Breidor left the house in nearby Ventnor where she was living with a friend. When she never returned, her sisters Fran and Val eventually tried to file a missing persons report.


(Nov 15 ca.)
Sometime in mid-November. A street hustler named Dante said he went clothes shopping with Tracy Roberts. She bought the outfit she was wearing when her body was found.“She said, ‘I'll be back in like a hour,’” Dante remembers. “She never came back.”

(Nov. 19th)
Papa Joe may be the last person to see her, early in the morning on Sunday, Nov. 19th. He says he saw Kim get into a car. “I literally threw her out of here after I fed her and opened the car door. And she said hi to the guy, whatever. And he said hello. And then, they left,” he recalls

The Tracy Roberts line is very interesting. Again: "Will be back in an hour". That indicates, she didn't go for Johns, because in that case, she would not been sure to be back in an hour.

So, as a theory, the idea, someone near to them, maybe someone in the scene killed them, may hold some water. Together with the signature, this gives a nice narrowed down pool.
 
Okay sorry for just jumping in here. I've got a few questions. I've read about the Atlantic city murders just not about the girls individually. I yet to do that. And so far in the gb4 I have read about SG and MW and very little about MB I am trying to work my way threw them all.
But I just watched a show on how these two SK might be the same. Was just wondering if these are the only connections.
They were all prostitutes
They all were strangled
They all maybe looked a like
and that is all I have read so far...can anyone give a list of the similarity? Or what doesn't make this the same guy?
Guess I am getting lazy and don't want to read threw all of the threads. :)
 
Both Atlantic City girls and OB girls were laid out in a row right to left.
 
Does anyone know if the ob girls were found with shoes or not? I keep reading conflicting storys about this.
The fact they were all laid in a row right to left kind of raises a red flag to me. At the same time who is to say that maybe it's not a copy cat if this info was public before ob girls were killed.
 
Okay sorry for just jumping in here. I've got a few questions. I've read about the Atlantic city murders just not about the girls individually. I yet to do that. And so far in the gb4 I have read about SG and MW and very little about MB I am trying to work my way threw them all.
But I just watched a show on how these two SK might be the same. Was just wondering if these are the only connections.
They were all prostitutes
They all were strangled
They all maybe looked a like
and that is all I have read so far...can anyone give a list of the similarity? Or what doesn't make this the same guy?
Guess I am getting lazy and don't want to read threw all of the threads. :)

Definitely make time to read through the thread on Melissa. She was the first of our GB4 girls, and being familiar with her case will give you a very good idea of how LISK has changed and progressed.

As for the AC4, I personally don't see a physical resemblance to the GB4, Aside from that, though, I find the 2 cases very similar. But there are also some glaring differences. Unlike the GB4, none of the AC4 were online escorts, they were street prostitutes. Also, though we don't know the actual dates the AC4 were murdered, we do know that all 4 bodies were found in Nov. of 2006. and that they hadn't been dead for very long. The GB4 were all killed in the summer, and their deaths spanned a time period of 3 years (with Amber and Megan being a few months apart). Additionally, the AC4 were found clothed, if memory serves, and dumped without any attempt at concealment. The GB4 were all found nude, and wrapped in burlap.

That's alot of differences, imo. But there's nothing to suggest that AC couldn't have been the work of LISK, and he simply evolved over time. I'm still on the fence about whether or not there's a connection. :dunno:
 
Just to clarify:
MBB, was the first of GB4 to disappear (2007)
GB4 disappeared between the months of June and September, over a three year period, but we don't actually know when they were killed. We do know that ALC, the last of the GB4, disappeared in early Sept and was found by early December...so, that is just three months.Depending on the amount of decomposition, ALC's remains could hold the most clues. Same as Kim R in the AC4 case. But in AC4, all four were dumped/killed over only about a one month period of time.
 
Does anyone know if the ob girls were found with shoes or not? I keep reading conflicting storys about this.
The fact they were all laid in a row right to left kind of raises a red flag to me. At the same time who is to say that maybe it's not a copy cat if this info was public before ob girls were killed.

Okay, forget that rwo thing, it's not correct. And if you look at the order, in which the victim were placed (the dynamic, how the dump site grew) it's easy to see, what formed the pattern:

In the case of the LISK, it was the road, obviously. He dropped the first, then, 2 years later, the second left of the first. Then another years later the third to the right of the first and then, some months later, the Amber on the outer left. That is more concentric circles crossed by the road in a left hand pattern.
The AC bodies were placed in different trenches, just some kind of from the left to the right. There is no enforcing cross line, the pattern is right-handed and linear.

And since we are about it, lets talk other differences and similarities:

1.) The optical similarity between the victims
Measure the cheeks, the eye positions and so on, and there is rudimentary similarity at best. The bone structures weren't also changed by the poll, so we can forget that part.

2.) LISK took 2 years between the first victims, then a year, another year, half a year. That is what I would consider a pretty normal kill curve.
AC on the other hand killed four in like eight weeks. This was fast, driven. His average kill speed was about factor 100 higher than LISK's. Now, after comparing the kill curves of a lot of SK cases, I think, those kill speed functions are as individual as fingerprints in a way. Which, IMO, means, that can't be the same guy.

3.) COD, as far as mentioned in the media was asphyxiation or strangulation. Which is the way, about half of all power/control-oriented SKs go. We have 11 more strangled in Albuquerque, are they connected because they were strangled? Or the murders committed by Mary and Norma Bell were connected because they strangled her victims too? To say, they are connected because they were, in an arbitrary way strangled or asphyxiated, is like saying, they were connected because they were all females. Which doesn't make sense because most SK victims are females and children anyway.

4.) LISK wrapped his victims in burlap. As it looks to me, without clothes, at least, I can't see in any of the few crime scene photos in the media any remains of cloths, while there were remains of the burlap visible. So, pure pragmatism.
The AC victims were dressed but without shoes. They were all staged face-down, looking to the East. This indicates a stronger ritualistic aspect in the AC murders that is entirely missing in the GB4 cases.

So, except for some things, LISK and AC share with hundreds of other serial killers in the worldwide history of serial killing, AC and LISK are pretty much opposites.
 
Does anyone know if the ob girls were found with shoes or not? I keep reading conflicting storys about this.
The fact they were all laid in a row right to left kind of raises a red flag to me. At the same time who is to say that maybe it's not a copy cat if this info was public before ob girls were killed.

I forgot in the last post to take the next argument beforehand. Because it can't take long, till someone yells, this makes 3 serial killers in the area to NYC to AC to GB, what are the odds?
The odds are, mathematically pretty good. I calculated it only for NYC though. Given the population size and the traffic, NYC should have on average six SKs at any given time plus 2 to 3 "visiting" SKs, as in homicidal truckers and traveling salesmen. That we know only of two in the wider area means merely, we haven't detected the work of the other ones yet.
AC, and I didn't do the complete math yet, has less population, but more visitors in general. Given, how many people with excited and sometimes desperate states of mind visit AC per year, any number under 3+2 would make me wonder.

I really hope, to get all this math done at some point and ready to publish. But it's so much work to prepare it from paper and white boards to computer. OO Math breaks my fingers every time.
 
Definitely make time to read through the thread on Melissa. She was the first of our GB4 girls, and being familiar with her case will give you a very good idea of how LISK has changed and progressed.

As for the AC4, I personally don't see a physical resemblance to the GB4, Aside from that, though, I find the 2 cases very similar. But there are also some glaring differences. Unlike the GB4, none of the AC4 were online escorts, they were street prostitutes. Also, though we don't know the actual dates the AC4 were murdered, we do know that all 4 bodies were found in Nov. of 2006. and that they hadn't been dead for very long. The GB4 were all killed in the summer, and their deaths spanned a time period of 3 years (with Amber and Megan being a few months apart). Additionally, the AC4 were found clothed, if memory serves, and dumped without any attempt at concealment. The GB4 were all found nude, and wrapped in burlap.

That's alot of differences, imo. But there's nothing to suggest that AC couldn't have been the work of LISK, and he simply evolved over time. I'm still on the fence about whether or not there's a connection. :dunno:

Yea I started out with SG but the more I read the more I couldn't stop. Have been working on MBB and trying to find out all I can. It's hard between work, school and getting ready for my little bun in the oven. I'm gonna keep reading as much as I can when I can threw all the threads but I don't even know where to start. Read a little about JT but I don't think her killer is the same as the GB4 so just seems it will be all confusing until I make it threw all the four girls and then get on with the others.
I'm on the fence about all of this. lol
I find it odd that the SK only called MBB family. I think the fact he new how short to keep the phone calls and were to make them at says nothing about him being a cop. I dated a networker for 7 years and just from being around him and his hacker friends I new how little things like that worked and about cell towners. And I'm really not that smart. Kinda makes me feel like this SK could be more computer smart then law smart. Kinda why I brought up the thing about the home made phone that could be used off of anyone's land line with out them knowing in another thread but I posted in the wrong thread...but I am awear that the phone idea is way out there...and prob didn't take place.
Anywho off to read some more. :)
 
Okay, forget that rwo thing, it's not correct. And if you look at the order, in which the victim were placed (the dynamic, how the dump site grew) it's easy to see, what formed the pattern:

In the case of the LISK, it was the road, obviously. He dropped the first, then, 2 years later, the second left of the first. Then another years later the third to the right of the first and then, some months later, the Amber on the outer left. That is more concentric circles crossed by the road in a left hand pattern.
The AC bodies were placed in different trenches, just some kind of from the left to the right. There is no enforcing cross line, the pattern is right-handed and linear.

And since we are about it, lets talk other differences and similarities:

1.) The optical similarity between the victims
Measure the cheeks, the eye positions and so on, and there is rudimentary similarity at best. The bone structures weren't also changed by the poll, so we can forget that part.

2.) LISK took 2 years between the first victims, then a year, another year, half a year. That is what I would consider a pretty normal kill curve.
AC on the other hand killed four in like eight weeks. This was fast, driven. His average kill speed was about factor 100 higher than LISK's. Now, after comparing the kill curves of a lot of SK cases, I think, those kill speed functions are as individual as fingerprints in a way. Which, IMO, means, that can't be the same guy.

3.) COD, as far as mentioned in the media was asphyxiation or strangulation. Which is the way, about half of all power/control-oriented SKs go. We have 11 more strangled in Albuquerque, are they connected because they were strangled? Or the murders committed by Mary and Norma Bell were connected because they strangled her victims too? To say, they are connected because they were, in an arbitrary way strangled or asphyxiated, is like saying, they were connected because they were all females. Which doesn't make sense because most SK victims are females and children anyway.

4.) LISK wrapped his victims in burlap. As it looks to me, without clothes, at least, I can't see in any of the few crime scene photos in the media any remains of cloths, while there were remains of the burlap visible. So, pure pragmatism.
The AC victims were dressed but without shoes. They were all staged face-down, looking to the East. This indicates a stronger ritualistic aspect in the AC murders that is entirely missing in the GB4 cases.

So, except for some things, LISK and AC share with hundreds of other serial killers in the worldwide history of serial killing, AC and LISK are pretty much opposites.

Couldn't the fact that they were all looking to the east just be because the way the water flowed?
 
Just to clarify:
MBB, was the first of GB4 to disappear (2007)
GB4 disappeared between the months of June and September, over a three year period, but we don't actually know when they were killed. We do know that ALC, the last of the GB4, disappeared in early Sept and was found by early December...so, that is just three months.Depending on the amount of decomposition, ALC's remains could hold the most clues. Same as Kim R in the AC4 case. But in AC4, all four were dumped/killed over only about a one month period of time.

I get my MB's mixed up every time. :banghead:
 
In AC, the women were all found in ONE DITCH. The drainage DITCH is in a trash filled area, behind the motel, which sits in between the newer highway and the Black Horse Pike.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-21-bodies-found_x.htm
"The road and the ditch run parallel to the Black Horse Pike and the Atlantic City Expressway outside of Atlantic City."

From a GOOGLE search "Golden Key Motel Black Horse Pike Egg Harbour ditch"
https://www.google.com/search?q=Gol...494,d.b2I&fp=c4144f097b46ab83&biw=939&bih=437
 
Couldn't the fact that they were all looking to the east just be because the way the water flowed?

They were, according to the reports and the rare photos not even partially floating free. As in, swimming, but for example hindered to turn into the stream with the whole body by the limitations of the trench. That would be the only situation in which the head could turn but not the whole body.

On another side note: Looking east is one thing, no shoes is one thing, face down is one thing. All three together are kind of a picture. To bury someone, face east and without shoes or very light decomposable sandals are consistent with Islamic burial rites. To bury someone face down is known in a lot cultures under different aspects (to prevent ghosts from coming back and get revenge, expression of disgust for the dead person, etc, etc). The Islamic version is the disgust version. The interesting part is, even if someone if burying a person he disgusts and therefore buries that person face down, the head is still turned East. Because this is something, Allah demands, not a mortal issue. Same with the shoes. Nothing that can't decompose shall go in the ground (which is the reason, no Muslims are buried with heavy boots). Face direction, no shoes, those are general rules of religion, not just personal expressions. What makes the whole thing interesting is not the one or the other detail, but the picture, those details build up.
 
In AC, the women were all found in ONE DITCH. The drainage DITCH is in a trash filled area, behind the motel, which sits in between the newer highway and the Black Horse Pike.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-21-bodies-found_x.htm
"The road and the ditch run parallel to the Black Horse Pike and the Atlantic City Expressway outside of Atlantic City."

From a GOOGLE search "Golden Key Motel Black Horse Pike Egg Harbour ditch"
https://www.google.com/search?q=Gol...494,d.b2I&fp=c4144f097b46ab83&biw=939&bih=437

If you look it up in Google Maps, you can see, that behind the hotels comes a railway track. I remember something, from the lady, who found the first body, she was flower picking between the Black Horse pike and the railway track. In Google Maps, it shows some length rectangle there, going from about the height of Dresden Pl. down to the creek or drainage system, whatever that is, that branches form the greater body of water till the other side of the EC Expressway. I guess, that length square is the trench? Looks pretty big but shallow.
 
Atlantic City murdervictim Kim Raffo's x-husband has again been arrested Jan 13, 2013.

Charge was : RESIST OFF W/O VIOL MISDEMEANOR

http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Miami-Dade-County-FL/Hugh-Evan-Auslander.49019325/details/


Here is an explanations for what this arrest could have been caused by.
It is somone else, NOT HA, who ask what this charge mean, and some kind of expert answered:

There are two different criminal offenses that can be charged by law enforcement based on your question.

(1) Resisting arrest without violence; this offense is charged when the officer alleges that the defendant did not cooperate during the arrest process. Such as refusing to place hands behind back to have handcuffs attached, refusing to give name or id, refusing to exit car, etc.

(2) Obstruction; this offense is charged when the officer alleges that the defendants conduct interferred with a police investigation, such as giving flase information, not leaving the scene after being directed to by police officer, etc.

Both are misdemeanors, sentence of up to 1 year in jail or 1 year probation, Count can also impose fine up to $1000, court costs, community service work, anger management classes, counseling, drug testing. If no prior record and no aggravating circumstances then probable that court would not require jail time as part of sentence, but would require probation. Also may be able to have the case submitted to pre-trial diversion and upon completion of required terms case dismissed. If you want to contest the charge then you have to go to trial. You should retain an attorney to represent you. A conviction will result in a criminal record
 

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