ATLANTIC CITY SK: possible link to LISK and GB4?

[Theforeigner]

There are too many physical similaries between all of the GB4 and AC4 that it should not be dismissed as factor linking the murders or as a clue to the SK. After comparing the pictures in the two separate posts by TF the majority of WSers can easily see and agree that the victims are strikingly similar in several ways. The chances are then the SK might agree. IMO There's no reason to "split hairs" or make things more complicated than they are.

Thank you NoviceSleuth.

 

[mysterymom7]

I suggest to study the case, at least to do a little bit re-reading on it before following Foreigner in correct but incomplete "knowledge". Not all the murders were actually Williams. He had killed sure, but some of the victims blamed on him were in fact not his handiwork. Suspect was a white supremacist named Charles T. Sanders. DeKalb County reopened the case in 2005 and concluded some were blamed wrongfully on Williams and even John Douglas, who had profiled Williams during the case admitted, he knows, Williams has killed, but he isn't sure whether all the victims were really on Williams account.
And when I referred to Atlanta, I did that under the assumption, that everybody either knows or reads up, not that TheForeigner would once more present half knowledge as fact without even stating, that is was only her incomplete knowledge leading others to follow down that road. Sorry, if my incomplete reference allowed Foreigner to start another wrongful ruckus.

John Douglas! Thank you! I was wracking my brain for MONTHS trying to remember his name. Sorry... off track... MOST African American SK's kill African American women/men. I don't lump a racially/religiously motivated murderer of dozens into my profile of an SK, otherwise, I would consider Hitler an SK. IMO, that's a different "breed" of killer. Just like dogs, not all murderers are of the same breed. You have too many breeds of SK mixed in your profile, IMO. I understand being committed to the profile. I just don't see how you've come to your conclusions based on what we know from LE or witnesses have stated it as fact... IMO.

 

[CriminalMinds]

Well, then lets have a look at it ...

Pair 1: Kim Raffo & Amber Lynn Costello
different apparent age (and in appearance, Raffo looks even older than she was), different face shapes, different eye shape and color. The only thing a little similar is the hair color, except that ALC has those blond lines (what are they called in English?) colored in.

Pair 2: Barbara Breidor & Maureen Brainard-Barnes
That's an entirely different face shape. Maureen's cheekbones are low, Barbara's high, hair color different, eyes different in shape and color. Hair color different, age group entirely different also in appearance.

Pair 3: Molly Jean Dilts & Megan Waterman
Well, the hair color is as different as it can be, but at least those two have about the same face shape up till the cheek bones. Except that the upper part, forehead and therefore the eye brow line is entirely different.

Pair 4: Tracy Roberts & Melissa Barthelmy
Different hair color, but at least both in the blond range. Entirely different face shapes, caused by entirely different width and position of the cheek bones, Melissa has a much higher eye brow line also.

So, honestly, four pairs and in eahc and everyone different face shapes, different eye colors and shapes, in at least two of the pairs visible big age differences ... where are the striking similarities? Maybe you should have added that those similarities only exist in your opinion? Because I can't see them. But you are presenting your opinion as fact here? Even against measurable differences. Because the face symmetry is on those pairs also different.

eh, not so fast-I see where you are coming from--and believe me, while I totally respect your opinions and experience(not debating you at all to debate you just for debates sake), the similarities have nothing to do with eye color, hair color, or cheek bone bone structure--those are old-school baseline symmetries used by fbi 1970's profiling victimology 101---and still hold relevance in today's profiling, but they are, as you say, "rubber stamping"---I go with mid-face facial features, below brow line, inside of cheeks---IMHO it has to do with, once again, the "triangle features" from eye shape/spacing, nose shape and length, lip structure, and chin structure--this sk has immediate eye draw to the mid-face region to which he cannot deny himself he has subconscious attraction

 

[Peter Brendt]

There are too many physical similaries between all of the GB4 and AC4 that it should not be dismissed as factor linking the murders or as a clue to the SK. After comparing the pictures in the two separate posts by TF the majority of WSers can easily see and agree that the victims are strikingly similar in several ways. The chances are then the SK might agree. IMO There's no reason to "split hairs" or make things more complicated than they are.

You can see what yxu want, blond is blond and brunette is brunette. High cheek bones are high cheek bones and low cheek bones are low cheek bones. So, feel free to claim similarities between apples and tomatoes (both are basically round). And by the way, a poll will not change hair colors, it would only show, what this discussion is really about.

 

[CriminalMinds]

IMO, that term also tends to imply that the speaker is of a certain generation. Americans in their twenties typically don't use that phrase. It was used widely until the 80s.

He might also be a Cher fan. She had a song called "Half Breed" that was widely played in the 70s.

and it was NEVER applied to black/white back in "the day"--was used for native american-white----became used towards black/white early 90's

 

[Theforeigner]

How bout a poll? : )

I have started a poll thread on the subject.

"Is there a facial similarty between the GB4 victims and the AC4 victims?"

Please go there and vote

Thanks in advance

 

[Redbird]

If you figure it out hope you can put the photos up again for comparison. I agree that they do look alike, especially Kimberly Raffio and Amber Lynn Costello, Molly Jean Ditts and Megan Waterman. I also think Tracy Ann Roberts looks like Molly and Megan).

 

[Theforeigner]

If you figure it out hope you can put the photos up again for comparison. I agree that they do look alike, especially Kimberly Raffio and Amber Lynn Costello, Molly Jean Ditts and Megan Waterman. I also think Tracy Ann Roberts looks like Molly and Megan).

Its up with all the images and the vote function working.

 

[Just K]

As to hair color: MB changed her hair color on a regular basis. All eight of these women were natural brunettes and all but MBB had changed their natural color to either lighten it or streak it. So, there is yet another similarity. And, none of them looked like crack or meth heads. A few (Tracy and Kim) looked like drinkers, though.

It is my understanding that most Sks actually kill people from their own race. Maybe he was surprised that Melissa's sister was half black. Maybe being a white racist he decided to taunt and try to denigrate her.

 

[Theforeigner]

As to hair color: MB changed her hair color on a regular basis. All eight of these women were natural brunettes and all but MBB had changed their natural color to either lighten it or streak it. So, there is yet another similarity. And, none of them looked like crack or meth heads. A few (Tracy and Kim) looked like drinkers, though.

It is my understanding that most Sks actually kill people from their own race. Maybe he was surprised that Melissa's sister was half black. Maybe being a white racist he decided to taunt and try to denigrate her.

Thank you very much for pointing the info on the hair out!

Please repost that info in the:
"In your opinion, is there a facial similarty between the GB4 victims and the AC4 vict" poll thread, here is a link:

In your opinion, is there a facial similarty between the GB4 victims and the AC4 vict - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



And yes I belive you are abslutely right concerning "that most Sks actually kill people from their own race".

And it sure is a possibility, as you said, that;

"Maybe he was surprised that Melissa's sister was half black. Maybe being a white racist he decided to taunt and try to denigrate her"


And by the way, I belive he found out different info about MB's and her relatives life, such as fex. that MB's sister has half black, by going through Melissas phone, checking out pictures and SMSs in the phone.

And if Johnny Terry, MB's boyfriend/pimp, was truthful about the 30+ phonecalls from the alleged killer, and the killer really knew that he had tattos on his back etc ect, and that Terry did weird stuff with Melissa (sexual stuff I presume), the killer probably also read and saw that in MBs phone.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

"And by the way, a poll will not change hair colors, it would only show, what this discussion is really about.: QUOTE by PB

BUT women do change their hair color all the time and some change it often. Others wear wigs now and then. They also use makeup - maybe differently from time to time or not use it at all at other times. Maybe that's what is throwing you off and you can't see the similarities. IMO

 

[marie-chantal]

"And by the way, a poll will not change hair colors, it would only show, what this discussion is really about.: QUOTE by PB

BUT women do change their hair color all the time and some change it often. Others wear wigs now and then. They also use makeup - maybe differently from time to time or not use it at all at other times. Maybe that's what is throwing you off and you can't see the similarities. IMO

I agree. I've been every shade of the rainbow, from platinum blonde to jet black. There is a huge difference in the way I look depending on haircolor. I'm a natural brunette with Mediterranean ancestry, but I have blue eyes and fair skin that has yellowish undertones. When I'm a brunette, I look Mediterranean. When I'm blonde, I look northern European. Trust me-hair color can truly change a person's look. Add a tan or lackthereof into the mix and my look gets changed up even more.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Oh my, let's spread a little bit of trivia:
Somewhere in the sixties, Russian biologists made en experiment. The cut off the tails from rats. And then from the offspring of those rats. And then from the offspring of those rats. Because they thought, if they do the same thing over and over again, one day, there would be a generation of rats born without tails.
Now, a poll to change cheek bones and skull shapes, i.e. actual bones ... that clearly beats it. But well, if you think, that is smart, go ahead.
Personally, I would like to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I am kind of closing shop now over Christmas and New Year's Eve.

 

[fred&edna]

Oh my, let's spread a little bit of trivia:
Somewhere in the sixties, Russian biologists made en experiment. The cut off the tails from rats. And then from the offspring of those rats. And then from the offspring of those rats. Because they thought, if they do the same thing over and over again, one day, there would be a generation of rats born without tails.
Now, a poll to change cheek bones and skull shapes, i.e. actual bones ... that clearly beats it. But well, if you think, that is smart, go ahead.
Personally, I would like to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I am kind of closing shop now over Christmas and New Year's Eve.

Over and over and over again you twist and turn the words and thoughts of others and pile on the negativity. The BBM/UBM part of your post doesn't make any sense literally or figuratively. It's a POLL (opinions) regarding similarity but I know you understand that, you just don't like it.

 

[Justiceforever]

OMG I'm slow! Please someone tell me what is BBM/UBM? ; ) TIA!

 

[fred&edna]

OMG I'm slow! Please someone tell me what is BBM/UBM? ; ) TIA!

bolded by me/underlined by me

 

[Justiceforever]

bolded by me/underlined by me

Gotcha! Thanks! :doh:

 

[Theforeigner]

FYI, those who are interested in the Atalntic City serial killer case.

There is NO DNA in the AC serial killer case, so noone could have been eliminated as a suspect due to DNA:

http://www.examiner.com/article/no-dna-atlantic-city-prostitute-murders-black-horse-strangler-case

No DNA in Atlantic City Prostitute murders, Black Horse Strangler case
November 18, 2009

Quote:

"The water washed away any DNA that might have been there," said one investigator familiar with the case.


Another thing to think about is the FACT that Kim Raffo knew at least 2 of the other AC4 victims, and she possibly also even knew the 4th victim.

Here is a link to that back up this information:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

SO...could it really be a coincident that the AC4 serial killer choose to kill, at least 3, possibly 4 victims, who knew each other???

I don´t think so!

 

[nugzter]

FYI, those who are interested in the Atalntic City serial killer case.

There is NO DNA in the AC serial killer case, so noone could have been eliminated as a suspect due to DNA:

http://www.examiner.com/article/no-dna-atlantic-city-prostitute-murders-black-horse-strangler-case

No DNA in Atlantic City Prostitute murders, Black Horse Strangler case
November 18, 2009

Quote:

"The water washed away any DNA that might have been there," said one investigator familiar with the case.


Another thing to think about is the FACT that Kim Raffo knew at least 2 of the other AC4 victims, and she possibly also even knew the 4th victim.

Here is a link to that back up this information:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

SO...could it really be a coincident that the AC4 serial killer choose to kill, at least 3, possibly 4 victims, who knew each other???

I don´t think so!

I find it strange that no DNA was found on KR. She was found days after she went missing. Who reported her missing?

 

[Theforeigner]

I find it strange that no DNA was found on KR. She was found days after she went missing. Who reported her missing?

I don´t think anyone reported Kim Raffo missing, but I do know that after the victims were found police went to different motels in the Golden Key motel area with a picture of Kim Raffo and somone possibly recoginzed her, because she had recently stayed at a motel very close to the Golden Key motel.
And according to Kim Raffo's x-husband he and Kim Raffo stayed in a motel close to Golden Key motel in the week prior to that they went to Long island in September 2006.