Attorney Client Privilege/ Alton Logan Ethical Dilemma

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My Bold...

My goodness. All these problems with the legal system and they are all problems with the prosecution side. Are there no crooked defense attorneys? No pure evil defense attorneys? No defense attorneys who play fast and loose with disclosure?

I have to agree that there is a glaring omission from the litany of evils of the system. The sole problem with the criminal defense bar is not that a few of its number occasionally are faced with an ethical conundrum the likes of which no outsider can understand. Some of them, too, are sometimes incompetent, dishonest, corrupt or evil. What is wrong is to condemn them as a group for the kind of work they choose to do and the clients they choose to represent.
 
I have around 30 years within the group of people whose rules of conduct are at issue, and I have totally conflicting reactions to this case. It is horrific to me that Mr. Logan spend 26 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. I don't think everyone who isn't a member of the bar needs to be counseled out of their disagreement or disdain, or that the lawyers involved should be either condemned or canonized for some sort of heroic service. We are a group that makes rules for its own members. We could change or tweek them. We make exceptions to the attorney client privilege for occasions when the clients won't pay us. This isn't all holy gospel.

It is a catch 22. If the information is disclosable if someone is improperly incarcerated no one will tell their attorney they committed the crime and that person will remain in jail.

I am guessing that in this case the attorney's are saying they would have gone to the governor in the case of the death penalty means they would have been willing to be disbarred to do so. That was their own personal line, not that there was a legal way for them to do so in that case.

As far as a creative way to get that info to someone, there was no physical evidence to prove this claim. The evidence was an affidavit of the perps admission. There is no way to get that to anyone without the client's cooperation. There was no smoking gun to point someone to. Getting a new trial is not that easy in most cases.
 
I well understand where you've been coming from. Many other posters have had a gut reaction similar to yours.

At a moral level, such reactions are easy to appreciate, for it's crystal clear that something is wrong. However, the problem lies not with the trapped attorneys. I assure you that none of them wanted to be in that position. Still, consider the fact that Wilson's attorneys asked him if he committed the murder. They wanted to know even though they assuredly understood what the possible outcomes were.

Experience has well taught me that many attorneys would not have asked Wilson that question. For unless Wilson decided to confess of his own volition, an affirmative answer was going to place those attorneys between the anvil of legal ethics and the sledge hammer of easily understood morality. Yet, they still asked the question. In doing so, they acquired knowledge that Logan was not the murderer. Wilson was the murderer.

I could easily (and I believe successfully) argue that if Wilson did not trust that his attorneys would uphold their oath and not violate Wilson's attorney-client privilege, then Wilson would never have truthfully answered their question. And if he had not truthfully answered their question, Logan would still be in prison.

There are a lot of huge problems within our system of jurisprudence. We have crooked judges. We have judges who are horribly biased in favor of LE and prosecutors (so much for a fair trial). We have prosecutors who are just plain evil or, at the very least, claim to have absurd ideas of what constitutes exculpatory and/or exonerating evidence and/or if they need to disclose such to the defense. We have police who religiously uphold the blue wall of silence, which means they refuse to police their own but they're fine with policing others. And then we have cases with circumstances similar to those in "Logan".

Though "Logan" certainly represents a problem within our legal system, such cases are very rare. More importantly, they do not arise because the attorneys caught in the trap are inherently fiendish individuals.

I know of no path that would have likely freed Logan. All of the attorneys involved checked for such a path with the State bar, legal scholars, judges et al. No one, anywhere, professed to know of such a path. Moreover, if in a similar case in the future, an attorney were to violate the client's privilege and a landmark case was handed down -- whereby some poor wrongfully convicted soul did gain early freedom -- I would argue that future Wilsons would not confess if they were asked "did you do it" by their attorneys. No trust, no truth.

FWIW
Bolded by me, Chezhire.

The reason most of us do not ask our clients that question is because we don't have any need for the answer in order to obtain the best verdict possible for our clients. It really is that simple.
 
Following up on my earlier post, the practical point here, like it or not, is that Wilson had not been charged in the McDonald's shootings, so his attorneys had no need to go to him and ask him if he'd been involved. It didn't further or aid their representation of him whatsoever. Had they not done this, there would have been no "ethical dilemma" as suggested by the first post of this thread.
 
If Alton Logan had been killed in prison, could the lawyers be sued for wrongful death?
 
SNIPPED: "...The attorneys involved did not use the attorney-client privilege to their advanatage. Rather, they were trapped by it. For there is no landmark case or other authority to close this well known and well understood gap (law students are made well aware of the trap) between legal ethics and morality. ..."
The "trap" was self-made by Wilson's attorneys: they never should have asked the question of Wilson in the first place. When they did so, they allowed their personal "needs" to "know" the "truth" to create the moral issues they were later forced to deal with and which are being discussed in this thread. Asking the question of Wilson did nothing to further their defense of him in the unrelated, later shooting. A seasoned defense attorney would NOT have asked the questions of Wilson.

SNIPPED: "...The attorney-client privilege is the cornerstone of our judicial system. It's considered sacred, because it engenders trust. When trust exists between the client and their attorney, information is more freely shared. And properly defending a client demands that the attorney have as much relevant information as possible.
Trust is a key condition for the passing of information.
Wilson told his attorneys that Logan was innocent only because he knew that information was privileged. I doubt that anyone thinks he would have confessed to his attorneys if the attorney-client privilege did not exist...."
Bolded by me, Chezhire.

Though I don't disagree with the above bolded statements, as I've already posted, there was no need for Wilson's attorneys to ask him about the McDonald's shootings, or to have him "trust" them with said information. It was irrelevant to their defense of Wilson.

Finally, before anyone jumps to conclusions that I don't have concerns about innocents being jailed, or worse, for crimes they didn't commit, let me say that these things do give me great pause. It's just that in this case, Wilson's attorneys' ethical duties and obligations were to Wilson and WIlson alone: they didn't "know" that an innocent man had been wrongfully accused and was on trial until they asked Wilson if he'd committed the crime.
 
The "trap" was self-made by Wilson's attorneys: they never should have asked the question of Wilson in the first place. When they did so, they allowed their personal "needs" to "know" the "truth" to create the moral issues they were later forced to deal with and which are being discussed in this thread. Asking the question of Wilson did nothing to further their defense of him in the unrelated, later shooting. A seasoned defense attorney would NOT have asked the questions of Wilson.

Bolded by me, Chezhire.

Though I don't disagree with the above bolded statements, as I've already posted, there was no need for Wilson's attorneys to ask him about the McDonald's shootings, or to have him "trust" them with said information. It was irrelevant to their defense of Wilson.

Finally, before anyone jumps to conclusions that I don't have concerns about innocents being jailed, or worse, for crimes they didn't commit, let me say that these things do give me great pause. It's just that in this case, Wilson's attorneys' ethical duties and obligations were to Wilson and WIlson alone: they didn't "know" that an innocent man had been wrongfully accused and was on trial until they asked Wilson if he'd committed the crime.

In this case, thank God they did ask or Logan would have died in prison. Perhaps they didn't ask at all. Maybe Wilson volunteered the information when he found out Logan had been arrested.
 
In this case, thank God they did ask or Logan would have died in prison. Perhaps they didn't ask at all. Maybe Wilson volunteered the information when he found out Logan had been arrested.

IIRC, it was Wilson's accomplice who mentioned it to his own attorney. That attorney contacted Wilson's attorneys and they subsequently interviewed Wilson and got his confession to the crime.
 
Basically what you're saying is that everything is morally relative, very much the post-modern thinking of current times.

There are moral absolutes. Check the ten commandments.

As to your "what if"- what if Logan had been a burglar, etc, not pure and clean as the driven snow- the question, IMO, is irrelevant. Logan wasn't any of those things, or we'd be arguing a different case altogether.

And for all the lawyers out there whose brains have been transmogrified by the "law", I am sure there are many others whose consciences remain in tact. It does take a strong moral foundation and backbone to do the right thing. But then, that's our challenge on this earth, isn't it? Whether it's law or business or how we raise our kids. (Look at the As and how well moral relativism worked for them.)

Nothing justifies the living death that this man, innocent of these charges, endured.
The moral absolutes quoted in the post above do not apply to the entirety of the United States. If they did, they'd be a part of our Constutition/Amendments, which they most certainly are not.

Moreover, I am one of the "lawyers out there" and posting at WS. My conscience "remains intact" and I am quite certain that I possess what you describe as "strong moral foundation," and that I've the "backbone to do the right thing."

What I question in the above post is that it fails to describe or explain what its author deems "the right thing."

The morals and consciences of the people of this country are woven into the laws that we, as a people, enact. They are not written in stone, but are moving bodies of law, reflective of society's present-day values and morals.

It is these values and morals that dictate our legal system, which in turn guide the attorneys practicing law, who are officers of the courts, and, should someone need us, one had better hope that we uphold those laws and do the best job defending one that we can.
 
SNIPPED: "...Perhaps they didn't ask at all. Maybe Wilson volunteered the information when he found out Logan had been arrested."
Nope, Kunz and Coventry went to Wilson and asked him.

"...Coventry and Kunz, both then assistant Cook County public defenders, wereassigned to be Andrew Wilson’s lawyers.

In March, just a few weeks later, MarcMiller, then the attorney defending Edgar Hope, came to Kunz and Coventry to
say that his client was contending that Logan was innocent.

“Hope said that [Logan] had nothing to do with the McDonald’s case, andthat it was Andrew Wilson who was with him and Andrew Wilson who shotgunnedthe security guard,” Kunz said.

Coventry and Kunz said they confronted Wilson with Hope’s claim.
“He kind of chuckled over the fact that someone else was charged withsomething he did,” Coventry, 64, recalled.
Kunz said, “Wilson said, ‘Yeah’ or ‘Uh-huh,’ nodded, grinned, and said,’That was me.’” ..."
Bolded by me, Chezhire.

See here: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/jan/19/news/chi-secretjan19
 
IIRC, it was Wilson's accomplice who mentioned it to his own attorney. That attorney contacted Wilson's attorneys and they subsequently interviewed Wilson and got his confession to the crime.
That's correct, cecybeans.
 
SNIPPED: "... I imagine if I needed defending it would be valuable to have that kind of detached logic available. I don’t like what the law does to hardwire brains but I can appreciate the fact that it creates a mind stubborn to the principle of existing law and not subject to the fluidity of social mores, although both of them seem to sometimes evolve at different rates.
Coming full circle in regards to what I just posted above, post #277, it is my job as an attorney to follow the law and the rules governing my practice of the law, and it is society's job, through its elected officials, etc., to enact the law, which should reflect society's present mores, values, etc..

We must remain focused on the law we are to uphold and enforce and defend against. We cannot do our jobs without being able to do so. It doesn't mean that we live in a vacuumn, though, it just means we can clearly delineate for ourselves so we have a moral "space" within which to work.
 
You're right, of course, Wudge. But if that jury learns that Lyons knowingly and admittedly let an innocent man rot in jail for 26 years because she was "ethically bound" not to reveal her guilty, (already-imprisioned-for-life) client's written confession, that jury will thoroughly despise and mistrust Lyons.

I am as certain of that as I am of my own name, because I feel that way about her now and I fully understand all the legal justifications and personal motivations that caused her to keep quiet. A less aware, less intellectually-inclined juror than I will simply regard her as heartless and evil and they will be happy to thwart her efforts to get KC off. And if AL resorts to shedding so much as a tear for KC, those jurrors will recoil because she isn't crying over a man she knows is totally innocent and who has spent 26 years weeping in a cell.

In view of this, I think the Defense's choice of AL may actually benefit the cause of Justice For Caylee. At least I hope so.
 
IIRC, it was Wilson's accomplice who mentioned it to his own attorney. That attorney contacted Wilson's attorneys and they subsequently interviewed Wilson and got his confession to the crime.

Yes, another strange twist to how the dilemma developed. If you can believe the reporting and interviews, the actual accomplice Hope quite adamantly and clearly directed his own lawyer (Miller, I think, one of the signers of the affidavit) to tell Alton Logan's lawyer that he was representing an innocent man. He said to go check with his street buddies to confirm that he always used Wilson as his accomplice or triggerman. Logan was a stranger to him. Instead, Miller apparently went first to his colleagues who represented Wilson and told them. I'm not sure why or if he should have done this, based on his client's directive. Or whether they should have all become entwined in this. Supposedly, they collectively did not trust Logan's private attorney, who was not one of them, though eventually he was told something. Wilson's lawyers chose also to ask Wilson if this information was true, and he said yes. And there they were.
 
The moral absolutes quoted in the post above do not apply to the entirety of the United States. If they did, they'd be a part of our Constutition/Amendments, which they most certainly are not.

Moreover, I am one of the "lawyers out there" and posting at WS. My conscience "remains intact" and I am quite certain that I possess what you describe as "strong moral foundation," and that I've the "backbone to do the right thing."

What I question in the above post is that it fails to describe or explain what its author deems "the right thing."

The morals and consciences of the people of this country are woven into the laws that we, as a people, enact. They are not written in stone, but are moving bodies of law, reflective of society's present-day values and morals (elementary's bold).

It is these values and morals that dictate our legal system, which in turn guide the attorneys practicing law, who are officers of the courts, and, should someone need us, one had better hope that we uphold those laws and do the best job defending one that we can.

Thanks for your response. I was arguing against moral relativism so you're bringing the argument out of context and into different territory. I don't really want to split hairs about what moral values drive America. I think most Americans would still agree that the ten commandments do apply. I can't imagine what other alternatives there are.

If the justice system is reflective of present day values and morals, then I would hope that that those values and morals have evolved and not devolved, that there is greater enlightenment. I don't disagree about the law being a living, breathing thing. I might disagree on what "morals" seem to be reflected.

Having said that, I hope you understand that I wasn't tarring all defence lawyers with the same brush. Of course, there are all types on both sides!

As for the question of what is the "right thing"? Well, the fact that it is even a question gives me pause.
 
Thanks for your response. I was arguing against moral relativism so you're bringing the argument out of context and into different territory. I don't really want to split hairs about what moral values drive America. I think most Americans would still agree that the ten commandments do apply. I can't imagine what other alternatives there are.

If the justice system is reflective of present day values and morals, then I would hope that that those values and morals have evolved and not devolved, that there is greater enlightenment. I don't disagree about the law being a living, breathing thing. I might disagree on what "morals" seem to be reflected.

Having said that, I hope you understand that I wasn't tarring all defence lawyers with the same brush. Of course, there are all types on both sides!

As for the question of what is the "right thing"? Well, even the fact that it is even a question gives me pause.
Though I disagree with the above post to the extent that it stands for the proposition that the ten commandments somehow govern or "apply to" the citizens of the United States (*as I can think of a great many other religions with followers here in the US who believe that their religions' tenets are the most righteous, etc., etc., which is part of the reason that, for example, so many of the religious words/phrases, are being slowly but surely carved out of the legal system of the US,) even if I were to agree with said proposition, for purposes of argument only, it's simple to say "the ten commandments apply," but it's a lot harder when applying them to real, present day fact situations.

What is the "right thing?" For me, as an attorney, it's keeping my promise to my client, the courts and my profession.

For example, the defense lawyers for Wilson had, first and foremost, legal, ethical and moral obligations to Wilson that attached when they accepted his defense. Choosing to interview him in regards to a crime for which he wasn't charged placed them in a precarious position, very precarious indeed. He didn't choose to place them there, they did it to themselves.

The American legal system is founded upon basic precepts, one of which is the attorney-client privilege.

To the extent that the above post suggests that Wilson's attorneys owed some legal, moral or ethical "duty" to Logan, who was not their client, that would have required them to violate their duties to Wilson, I strongly disagree.

In this case, since Wilson did die before Logan, and the attorneys for Wilson maintained the secrecy until Wilson's death, which was the restriction Wilson placed upon his attorneys, or the "authority" he'd given them, it was a no harm, no foul re: Wilson's attorneys' duties and obligations to Wilson.

As I'd intimated earlier, one had better hope that if one were ever accused of a crime that one's attorney could uphold these duties and obligations, else one might find oneself in big trouble at the hands of one's own attorney.
 
I have the greatest admiration and respect for both of you, Wudge and Chez, but in good conscience, I have to say this:

When a portion of "The Law" sanctions and encourages Punishing the Innocent, that portion of The Law needs to be changed.

And who better to figure out how best to change it than the very people who understand it, i.e, practicing attorneys and attorney-politicians.
 
I have the greatest admiration and respect for both of you, Wudge and Chez, but in good conscience, I have to say this:

When a portion of "The Law" prohibits Justice for the Innocent, that portion of The Law needs to be changed.

And who better to figure out how best to change it than the very people who understand it, i.e, practicing attorneys and attorney-politicians.
With respect, Friday, I've not said that I always agree with that which I'm charged to abide by/uphold, as I'm only one of many billions of citizens privileged enough to live in the US. As an attorney and as a citizen, I've lobbied for various changes in various areas of the law, but until such time, I am bound to abide by and uphold that which I'm given to work with. It's not that the law "sanctions and encourages punishing the innocent," it's that the law dictates that other individuals' rights, such as those charged with committing crimes, also be protected, and it's this action that then causes innocents to sometimes suffer.

The biggest challenge is finding a way to protect innocents and still provide proper defense to those who are, er, maybe not so innocent...
 
Ethics are largely oriented to individuals in a sub-culture; e.g., attorneys, doctors, police et al. Morality is related to societal values of right or wrong. Ethics and morals change with time, because they are value based. Values are like leaves on a tree that move as the winds blow. They shift. They change with time, which means ethics and morality change with time, too.

Ethics and morality are defined under the umbrella of principles. At both an individual and societal level, principles are our unshakable anchors, our immovable roots. They should never change. Unfortunately, at a societal level, they do; e.g., Roe versus Wade.

When we let go of our principles (or live without any), it's just a matter of time before a strong wind comes along and blows us away, and it's likely we will never understand why.

HTH

BRAVO! BRAVO! VERY WELL SAID, WUDGE! :clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
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