Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[mirage1]

Not exactly!
For one thing the latency is 6-24 hrs.

Mushroom Poisoning

Poisonous mushrooms are eaten by mushroom hunters out of ignorance, after misidentification as edible mushrooms, or as a psychoactive drug. Mushroom poisoning commonly leads to consultation with a poison information center and to hospitalization.This ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

For another, death cap ingestion has not been confirmed as source of poisonings.

6-24h is still a pretty small window for them to all have been together eating or drinking something though.

Don't forget that EP is running with the mushroom theory herself by admitting they were in the meal including from a mystery store, so that is evidence also. Its not like she said, there were not mushrooms in the meal and has no idea what they are talking about. She actually confirmed the theory.

 

[kittythehare]

6-24h is still a pretty small window for them to all have been together eating or drinking something though.

Don't forget that EP is running with the mushroom theory herself by admitting they were in the meal including from a mystery store, so that is evidence also. Its not like she said, there were not mushrooms in the meal and has no idea what they are talking about. She actually confirmed the theory.

She does not have access to the lab results. We know what the ingredients were in the lunch she served them. That's not a theory or 'running with a theory'!
That is what she confirmed.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Where they got poisoned is one of the easiest things to work out through looking at the timing of them getting sick and when they were last all together eating something. Its not that complicated and from the evidence we have seen its from the lunch. I think the evidence is already looking very powerful and thats just form what we know.

Since we don't know where they were all last eating together, that statement is untrue. Until it's verified by LE, we're none the wiser - they could have been together for days before the incident, eating together the whole time, and all day afterwards for all we know. Were that to be the case, it would explain why EP wasn't affected.

Obviously it goes without saying it's leaning towards looking a certain way but in terms of evidence, we simply don't have that at the moment.

 

[DeDee]

That is exactly what it means. I explained before that we do not say Grades 7 & 5 in Australia, we say Years 7 & 5.

I had posted a Vic link that gives the ages of children in each Year. I will post it again, so there is hopefully no further confusion.


Year 5 - age turned that year = 11
Year 7 - age turned that year = 13

https://www.concordsch.vic.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Student-Age-and-Year-Level-Policy1.pdf

Thank you for kindly posting the link again for those of us who don't have the luxury of time in order to read each post on this site.

At their tender ages, they should certainly be able to spell the words found there.

 

[ch_13]

Since we don't know where they were all last eating together, that statement is untrue. Until it's verified by LE, we're none the wiser - they could have been together for days before the incident, eating together the whole time, and all day afterwards for all we know. Were that to be the case, it would explain why EP wasn't affected.

Obviously it goes without saying it's leaning towards looking a certain way but in terms of evidence, we simply don't have that at the moment.

If in fact, the foursome had been eating or drinking outside of Erin's home then the police have done Erin a grave disservice. It should have come up in one of their press conferences or otherwise been reported to the media.

I really do hope that law enforcement wouldn't unfairly hang Erin out to dry in that manner. To add to that, I would think that Erin herself would have mentioned this get together in the statement that she released (assuming she knew about it).

Because nothing like that has come out, I tend to think that her lunch was the only occasion that the four victims were together. Although, she'd have quite a defamation case if it was otherwise.

 

[kittythehare]

If in fact, the foursome had been eating or drinking outside of Erin's home then the police have done Erin a grave disservice. It should have come up in one of their press conferences or otherwise been reported to the media.

I really do hope that law enforcement wouldn't unfairly hang Erin out to dry in that manner. To add to that, I would think that Erin herself would have mentioned this get together in the statement that she released (assuming she knew about it).

Because nothing like that has come out, I tend to think that her lunch was the only occasion that the four victims were together. Although, she'd have quite a defamation case if it was otherwise.

the police were very careful in their wording.
She was considered a POI because she cooked the meal that MAY have contained DC shrooms.

BUT police will investigate each of the 4 victims' lives, not just Erin's.

 

[jjleroche]

If in fact, the foursome had been eating or drinking outside of Erin's home then the police have done Erin a grave disservice. It should have come up in one of their press conferences or otherwise been reported to the media.

I really do hope that law enforcement wouldn't unfairly hang Erin out to dry in that manner. To add to that, I would think that Erin herself would have mentioned this get together in the statement that she released (assuming she knew about it).

Because nothing like that has come out, I tend to think that her lunch was the only occasion that the four victims were together. Although, she'd have quite a defamation case if it was otherwise.

Great post ch_13.
Since the two couples travelled from Korumburra, and were immediate family, I think there's a good chance that they travelled in the same car. If so, they may well have stopped at a cafe on their way home, or one couple may have invited the other couple in for a coffee or an evening meal when they were being dropped off.

IMO investigators are limiting information provided to the public as a matter of course, and likely wouldn't have revealed this if it had occurred.

I also believe that the two couples would have definitely brought along a contribution of food or drink for the meal.
In Australia, it would be quite unusual if they didn't. JMO

 

[Salah11]

Great post ch_13.
Since the two couples travelled from Korumburra, and were immediate family, I think there's a good chance that they travelled in the same car. If so, they may well have stopped at a cafe on their way home, or one couple may have invited the other couple in for a coffee or an evening meal when they were being dropped off.

IMO investigators are limiting information provided to the public as a matter of course, and likely wouldn't have revealed this if it had occurred.

I also believe that the two couples would have definitely brought along a contribution of food or drink for the meal.
In Australia, it would be quite unusual if they didn't. JMO

So why has nowhere been shut down by the health department if there was a café serving Death cap mushrooms?

You also have the issue that again nobody else was poisoned if they stopped off somewhere on the way to EP and why would they eat before a big lunch?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

So why has nowhere been shut down by the health department if there was a café serving Death cap mushrooms?

You also have the issue that again nobody else was poisoned if they stopped off somewhere on the way to EP and why would they eat before a big lunch?

Or eat after a lunch, either.

And they had no need to find somewhere quiet to talk over how the lunch had gone - nothing more private than a car.

The only reason I could see for a stop would be for a “comfort break” or caffeine booster for the driver, depending on the travel time home.

 

[Mirabel091]

Not exactly!
For one thing the latency is 6-24 hrs.

Mushroom Poisoning

Poisonous mushrooms are eaten by mushroom hunters out of ignorance, after misidentification as edible mushrooms, or as a psychoactive drug. Mushroom poisoning commonly leads to consultation with a poison information center and to hospitalization.This ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

For another, death cap ingestion has not been confirmed as source of poisonings.

Just to throw another possibility out there, if it had been webcap mushrooms (orellanine) instead of death caps then symptoms could have developed up to 2 weeks after ingestion, which would broaden the window quite a bit. Orellanine would primarily destroy the kidneys rather than the liver though so I think it would be possible to rule out at autopsy if not before, and I'm not sure the more toxic varieties are common in Australia. False morels (gyromitrin) would present more similarly to death caps but symptoms occur within 6-12 hours and it is possible to recover. Galerinas also contain amatoxin so would probably be hard to distinguish from death cap poisoning, but symptoms and outcome would be the same anyway.

 

[MsMarple]

So why has nowhere been shut down by the health department if there was a café serving Death cap mushrooms?

You also have the issue that again nobody else was poisoned if they stopped off somewhere on the way to EP and why would they eat before a big lunch?

And to add, the four initially presented at hospital with symptoms suspected to be food poisoning. Doctors would want a history of what they ate over the last 12 to 24 hours, not just what they had for lunch.

LE hasn’t said anything about other possible sources of the poison and EP remains the sole POI.

 

[CityKid]

So why has nowhere been shut down by the health department if there was a café serving Death cap mushrooms?

You also have the issue that again nobody else was poisoned if they stopped off somewhere on the way to EP and why would they eat before a big lunch?

And if all this were true, then why hasn't an innocent woman, falsely named as a person of interest, been publicly cleared—and more importantly, been reunited with her young children?

 

[al66pine]

Couples. Driving Together or Separately?

Great post ch_13.
Since the two couples travelled from Korumburra, and were immediate family, I think there's a good chance that they travelled in the same car. If so, they may well have stopped at a cafe on their way home, or one couple may have invited the other couple in for a coffee or an evening meal when they were being dropped off....

(sbm) @jjleroche Good point about both couples possibly driving in one car, and maybe a drink stop on the way back or at a home.

Regardless of how EP framed the invite, maybe they viewed the lunch an opp. for a serious discussion re EP, SP, kids, relationship, what-ev.

Travelling together?
If the couples planned to have a "post-game convo" among themselves afterward, that may have given them reason to travel together too.

Driving separately?
Assuming they lived in the Korumburra area, driving distance is a 10 - 12 min.* hop, so it's possible one or the other had errands or visits planned along the way, coming or going, so may have driven separately.
Or since SP & his parents were invitees, maybe Mother & Father planned to talk w him after lunch (privately by himself or w EP too?), and may have driven separately from other couple for that reason.

Not saying relevant, just a few possibilities.
____________________________________
* "... 14.48 km (9 miles) by car, following the A440 route.
"Korumburra and Leongatha are 10 minutes far apart, if you drive non-stop." (sbm)

Distance between Korumburra, VIC and Leongatha, VIC

Distance between Korumburra and Leongatha in miles and kilometers. Driving distance and how to go from Korumburra, Victoria to Leongatha, Victoria. How long does it takes to arrive.

www.distance-cities.com

 

[kittythehare]

Just to throw another possibility out there, if it had been webcap mushrooms (orellanine) instead of death caps then symptoms could have developed up to 2 weeks after ingestion, which would broaden the window quite a bit. Orellanine would primarily destroy the kidneys rather than the liver though so I think it would be possible to rule out at autopsy if not before, and I'm not sure the more toxic varieties are common in Australia. False morels (gyromitrin) would present more similarly to death caps but symptoms occur within 6-12 hours and it is possible to recover. Galerinas also contain amatoxin so would probably be hard to distinguish from death cap poisoning, but symptoms and outcome would be the same anyway.

Yes but we know the onset in this case was probably within 12 hrs.
Galerinas are seriously dangerous too.
lE have not confirmed which, if either, only that the symptoms and progression resembled amatoxin.

We're just gonna have to wait it out and they have indicated it may be months, that's understandable in that they have 4 victims to investigate..

 

[ch_13]

Since the two couples travelled from Korumburra, and were immediate family, I think there's a good chance that they travelled in the same car. If so, they may well have stopped at a cafe on their way home, or one couple may have invited the other couple in for a coffee or an evening meal when they were being dropped off.

Personally, I don't put a lot of stock into the "travel together" theory. Do people often share a car even for short distances?

Korumburra and Leongatha are less than fifteen minutes apart by car. It's a very short drive. If you have to stop along the way and pick another couple up, knock on their door, wait for them to put on their shoes and lock up, etc. you've probably doubled your travel time.

Generally, I would only carpool when parking at the destination is limited or costly, like when going to a ballgame or a concert. Long roadtrips as well, I guess, but that's a different situation.

But my thoughts are probably colored by my own experiences. I hate carpooling to parties in particular because when I want to leave I always have to wait for the other couple who inevitably take 30 minutes to say their goodbyes while I'm standing at the door with my coat in my hand.

 

[SouthAussie]

Or eat after a lunch, either.

And they had no need to find somewhere quiet to talk over how the lunch had gone - nothing more private than a car.

The only reason I could see for a stop would be for a “comfort break” or caffeine booster for the driver, depending on the travel time home.

The travel time home is about 12 mins. And the only place between the two towns that I can see is the djinta djinta Winery, which is open from 12-5pm on a Saturday. It is a rural, farming area.

Google Maps

(As an aside, "djinta djinta" is the indigenous name for the distinctive sound the Willy Wagtail, an Aussie bird, makes)

​

 

[jjleroche]

So why has nowhere been shut down by the health department if there was a café serving Death cap mushrooms?

You also have the issue that again nobody else was poisoned if they stopped off somewhere on the way to EP and why would they eat before a big lunch?

At this point, there has been no official confirmation whatsoever that death cap mushrooms were the cause of the victims' illnesses and deaths. There are numerous other possibilities.

I did not mention anything at all about stopping off on the way to EP's. What I mentioned was the possibility of the two couples stopping off later, on their way home, OR at one of their homes (which I consider the more likely option.) If the latter were the case, and they ingested a toxin at that point, no-one else would have become ill if it were just the four of them. MOO

 

[jjleroche]

Personally, I don't put a lot of stock into the "travel together" theory. Do people often share a car even for short distances?

Korumburra and Leongatha are less than fifteen minutes apart by car. It's a very short drive. If you have to stop along the way and pick another couple up, knock on their door, wait for them to put on their shoes and lock up, etc. you've probably doubled your travel time.

Generally, I would only carpool when parking at the destination is limited or costly, like when going to a ballgame or a concert. Long roadtrips as well, I guess, but that's a different situation.

But my thoughts are probably colored by my own experiences. I hate carpooling to parties in particular because when I want to leave I always have to wait for the other couple who inevitably take 30 minutes to say their goodbyes while I'm standing at the door with my coat in my hand.

Some people would share a lift together - others wouldn't - just depends on the people. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

At this point, there has been no official confirmation whatsoever that death cap mushrooms were the cause of the victims' illnesses and deaths. There are numerous other possibilities.

I did not mention anything at all about stopping off on the way to EP's. What I mentioned was the possibility of the two couples stopping off later, on their way home, OR at one of their homes (which I consider the more likely option.) If the latter were the case, and they ingested a toxin at that point, no-one else would have become ill if it were just the four of them. MOO

I was thinking about them gathering at one of their homes for a debrief (if a 12 min drive home wasn't enough).

I would think that forensics will be analysing the tea/coffee/milk/sugar/kitchen waste/whatever in whichever home they stopped at, so that this does not remain an unknown (if it is an unknown).

I still think that Gail might have been able to assist the police/Dept of Health/somebody with their movements, as she appeared coherent enough to write a last message to her family group.

Even when sick at home (prior to going to the hospital), the poisoning victims may have contacted one or more of their children to tell them they were going to hospital because they were so sick. More details might have been given in such a contact.

This could be why the investigators seem to have zeroed in on the lunch meal.
.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If in fact, the foursome had been eating or drinking outside of Erin's home then the police have done Erin a grave disservice. It should have come up in one of their press conferences or otherwise been reported to the media.

I really do hope that law enforcement wouldn't unfairly hang Erin out to dry in that manner. To add to that, I would think that Erin herself would have mentioned this get together in the statement that she released (assuming she knew about it).

Because nothing like that has come out, I tend to think that her lunch was the only occasion that the four victims were together. Although, she'd have quite a defamation case if it was otherwise.

How would she or could she know what the foursome were doing before and after? it's not normal to monitor other people's daily mundane lives. These four were obviously close and could have been grouping together in all manner of circumstances.

They could have all been at an evening meal the night before? Met for breakfast and coffee and chat before going to E's home? Could have been at a morning prayer service? Gone for a post meeting discussion and analysis afterwards? Gone to the pub? Gone wine tasting. Gone straight round to SP's to report back? Gone to a sports game or a hill walk or a garden party or even gone shopping together... who knows... anything.

I mean god what if they went on a bush walk after the lunch and foraged mushrooms or berries and poisoned themselves! What if there's someone else who's got it in for them all not in relation with anything to do with EP or SP?

Who knows. How could EP possibly know that?

All of these things are possible and none of them are impossible thus far.