Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

[Amalgam]

I wonder, if she had used the dehydrator to dry out and powder death cap mushrooms that weren't in the meal and then later used it to make the mushrooms for the BW?

To my mind this would make the most sense as it buys into the concept she was trying to poison her husband at some time but not wipe out four other people. That theory would rely on the tiniest particles of DC mushrooms cross contaminating to be enough to cause death. This also complies with a previous police statement where they said something about it may be the case there was an intention to perpetrate some form of other nefarious behaviour. ie. she prepared DC mushrooms, powdered them, intended to poison SP at the meal probably, used the dehydrator without cleaning it for the prep of the BW, cross-contaminated only tiny amounts of DC mushroom which was still enough to kill most of the elder people.

No danger of poisoning if you were to eat edible mushrooms that were dried in a dehydrator previously used to dry death caps with spores and other microscopic traces of death cap remaining in the dehydrator.

If this was the case and Erin ate the same meal as her guests, how did she avoid ending up on deaths door?

 

[Ellery84]

No danger of poisoning if you were to eat edible mushrooms that were dried in a dehydrator previously used to dry death caps with spores and other microscopic traces of death cap remaining in the dehydrator.

If this was the case and Erin ate the same meal as her guests, how did she avoid ending up on deaths door?

2 different dehydrators, imo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

No danger of poisoning if you were to eat edible mushrooms that were dried in a dehydrator previously used to dry death caps with spores and other microscopic traces of death cap remaining in the dehydrator.

If this was the case and Erin ate the same meal as her guests, how did she avoid ending up on deaths door?

Really? If they're so deadly?

But true, if there was cross contamination, she'd have ended up sick too.

 

[al66pine]

Mushroom Purchase at Asian Grocery? EP Taking the Stand?

Just an idea but what if she insists she really did purchase some mushrooms at an 'asian store' and they must have been toxic somehow? Can LE prove beyond all reasonable doubt that something didn't go wrong somehow?

For EP to "insist" on having bought mushrooms at Asian store (or some other actions she took) would require that she testify as a witness at trial (that is, unless def. team locates other persons or sources who can testify about EP purchasing mushrooms at Asian store).
Meaning she would be subject to cross exam by the crown/prosecution, iiuc.

Just spit-balling here for a min.
1. W EP on the stand, if her def counsel would pose only questions about the mushrooms, prosecutor could cross examine her about her previous stmts on same topic, iiuc.

IIRC, she made conflicting or self-contradictory stmts about the mushrooms.
If so, prosecutor could introduce those prior stmts to show the jury her inconsistencies about that. Imply to jury: Untruths re that subject indicates guilt, and explictly hammer this point in closing argument.

Maybe Vic. Rules of Evidence would allow prosecutor to expand the scope of questions to other subjects. IDK, not saying R/E would permit that. Maybe someone else here can offer other a more informed opinion?

2. Even if EP takes the stand, and
testifies about her mushroom purchase at Asian store, that is not dispositive of the question of source of the POISONOUS mushrooms. Asian store mushrooms could have been perfectly normal, edible mushrooms, not the source of poison which killed three, did grievous bodily harm to fourth.

Regardless of EP's purchase(s) of mushrooms a day or week at one or more certain stores, pre-luncheon --- guess what?
EP may have gotten the poisonous mushrooms elsewhere even months before. Say, by foraging them herself? May or may not have known of actual mushroom species being poisonous. IDK.

But jmo, imo, moo, in and of itself, EP "insisting" on telling of her Asian grocery purchase of mushrooms does not let her off the hook for these deaths & injury.

 

[Ellery84]

Mushroom Purchase at Asian Grocery? EP Taking the Stand?

For EP to "insist" on having bought mushrooms at Asian store (or some other actions she took) would require that she testify as a witness at trial (that is, unless def. team locates other persons or sources who can testify about EP purchasing mushrooms at Asian store).
Meaning she would be subject to cross exam by the crown/prosecution, iiuc.

Just spit-balling here for a min.
1. W EP on the stand, if her def counsel would pose only questions about the mushrooms, prosecutor could cross examine her about her previous stmts on same topic, iiuc.

IIRC, she made conflicting or self-contradictory stmts about the mushrooms.
If so, prosecutor could introduce those prior stmts to show the jury her inconsistencies about that. Imply to jury: Untruths re that subject indicates guilt, and explictly hammer this point in closing argument.

Maybe Vic. Rules of Evidence would allow prosecutor to expand the scope of questions to other subjects. IDK, not saying R/E would permit that. Maybe someone else here can offer other a more informed opinion?

2. Even if EP takes the stand, and
testifies about her mushroom purchase at Asian store, that is not dispositive of the question of source of the POISONOUS mushrooms. Asian store mushrooms could have been perfectly normal, edible mushrooms, not the source of poison which killed three, did grievous bodily harm to fourth.

Regardless of EP's purchase(s) of mushrooms a day or week at one or more certain stores, pre-luncheon --- guess what?
EP may have gotten the poisonous mushrooms elsewhere even months before. Say, by foraging them herself? May or may not have known of actual mushroom species being poisonous. IDK.

But jmo, imo, moo, in and of itself, EP "insisting" on telling of her Asian grocery purchase of mushrooms does not let her off the hook for these deaths & injury.

I’m wondering if she ordered them online. IMO

BBM

 

[Amalgam]

2 different dehydrators, imo

If she knows as much about mushrooms and foraging as has been claimed, it would be no surprise if she was quite comfortable using a single dehydrator for both death caps and any other mushrooms or foodstuffs she wanted to dehydrate.

If you mean she had two dehydrators as part of some cunning plan to get away with murder, it is possible, but I believe that she was allegedly so sure of evading detection after her previous alleged attempts on Simon’s life that she took few precautions beyond disposal of evidence.

On another note - I don’t think that the alleged attempts in previous years on Simon’s life were only intended to sicken him. To charge her with attempted murder the police must prove she formed and acted upon an intent to kill. There are other lesser offenses for using poison with less than lethal intent.

 

[Ellery84]

If she knows as much about mushrooms and foraging as has been claimed, it would be no surprise if she was quite comfortable using a single dehydrator for both death caps and any other mushrooms or foodstuffs she wanted to dehydrate.

If you mean she had two dehydrators as part of some cunning plan to get away with murder, it is possible, but I believe that she was allegedly so sure of evading detection after her previous alleged attempts on Simon’s life that she took few precautions beyond disposal of evidence.

On another note - I don’t think that the alleged attempts in previous years on Simon’s life were only intended to sicken him. To charge her with attempted murder the police must prove she formed and acted upon an intent to kill. There are other lesser offenses for using poison with less than lethal intent.

I just mean she had enough means to purchase two dehydrators.

If cross-contamination was an issue.

 

[Amalgam]

Really? If they're so deadly?

But true, if there was cross contamination, she'd have ended up sick too.

Yes, really. You would need at least a teaspoonful of dried death caps to hurt or kill somebody. If you look up the amatoxin content range for death caps per gram of mushroom and then compare that with the lethal dose range, traces aren’t very harmful.

Furthermore the time delay between eating death caps and becoming ill is in direct proportion to the amount consumed. The speed with which the victims in this case became violently ill suggests that they consumed a very high dose.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, really. You would need at least a teaspoonful of dried death caps to hurt or kill somebody. If you look up the amatoxin content range for death caps per gram of mushroom and then compare that with the lethal dose range, traces aren’t very harmful.

Furthermore the time delay between eating death caps and becoming ill is in direct proportion to the amount consumed. The speed with which the victims in this case became violently ill suggests that they consumed a very high dose.

At least 10 DC mushrooms is what the mushroom expert on the Under Investigation show said.

imo

 

[Salah11]

I wonder what other poison was used in the 4 other attempts? I mean he survived continuously so maybe she got bolder with DC?!

Imo

 

[Karin1974]

I guess without more information on her history with the deceased (how they got along, any grudges etc) it is hard to gain a motive. The recent/current search of the property for electronic devices - I wonder if this is just a tip-off from someone who knows her that she owned more devices (which had not been seen previously) or that Simon has filled in a few more details that did not add up. I do find it odd though that if she had attempted several times with Simon in the past through an ingestable poison - How did she fail all of these times? That is if it was Dc mushrooms with him as well?

MOO - I believe it could be a financial motive. Also, I’ve never tried poisoning someone, but if I were to, my worries would be about using too much poison as to have doctors/hospitals suspect immediately & test for such & not using enough to get the desired effect. That it appears she tried a few times to poison the ex husband shows some kind of trial & error with how much to use. Determined, not crazy. IMO

 

[Amalgam]

At least 10 DC mushrooms is what the mushroom expert on the Under Investigation show said.

imo

10 decent sized DC mushrooms sounds awfully high.

The amatoxin content of death cap mushrooms ranges between 1240-2950 milligrams per kilogram of dried whole mushrooms.

The minimum lethal dose for amatoxin is 0.1 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. This works out to 7-10mg for people in the weight range of 70-100kg.

For a 10mg dose of amatoxin, 8.06-3.39grams of dried death caps are required, depending upon potency.

Mushrooms are 80-90% water when picked.

So roughly 33-80grams of fresh death cap mushrooms are a minimum lethal dose.

This means that one large death cap can contain a lethal dose.

Reference for Amatoxin content :
Journal of Chromatography A

Volume 598, Issue 2, 15 May 1992, Pages 227-236

Simultaneous assay for amatoxins and phallotoxins in Amanita phalloides Fr. by high-performance liquid chromatography

F. Enjalbert ∗, C. Gallion, F. Jehl, H. Monteil,

 

[JLZ]

MOO - I believe it could be a financial motive. Also, I’ve never tried poisoning someone, but if I were to, my worries would be about using too much poison as to have doctors/hospitals suspect immediately & test for such & not using enough to get the desired effect. That it appears she tried a few times to poison the ex husband shows some kind of trial & error with how much to use. Determined, not crazy. IMO

If that's the case, I wonder what she wanted the money for. Because I wouldn't think she has opulent tastes, and she's bought her dream property and built a house. Perhaps she wanted the kids to go to a private secondary school and was arguing that her husband's side of the family pay for it.

 

[JBowie]

MOO - I believe it could be a financial motive.

It's been reported that EP is financially independent, owning at least two houses, as the result of an inheritance from her mother.

How Erin Patterson's life of wealth fell apart before mushroom lunch

Wealthy mother-of-two Erin Patterson is in custody after her privileged life unravelled when her marriage collapsed and she allegedly served a fatal mushroom lunch.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JLZ]

10 decent sized DC mushrooms sounds awfully high.

The amatoxin content of death cap mushrooms ranges between 1240-2950 milligrams per kilogram of dried whole mushrooms.

The minimum lethal dose for amatoxin is 0.1 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. This works out to 7-10mg for people in the weight range of 70-100kg.

For a 10mg dose of amatoxin, 8.06-3.39grams of dried death caps are required, depending upon potency.

Mushrooms are 80-90% water when picked.

So roughly 33-80grams of fresh death cap mushrooms are a minimum lethal dose.

This means that one large death cap can contain a lethal dose.

Reference for Amatoxin content :
Journal of Chromatography A

Volume 598, Issue 2, 15 May 1992, Pages 227-236

Simultaneous assay for amatoxins and phallotoxins in Amanita phalloides Fr. by high-performance liquid chromatography

F. Enjalbert ∗, C. Gallion, F. Jehl, H. Monteil,

They might have been saying 10 for the whole meal.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If that's the case, I wonder what she wanted the money for. Because I wouldn't think she has opulent tastes, and she's bought her dream property and built a house. Perhaps she wanted the kids to go to a private secondary school and was arguing that her husband's side of the family pay for it.

She doesn't 'want' for money - but I'll bet she doesn't want to have to carve up what she's got in order to give him half her wealth. I guess she had plans to live a fairly luxurious lifestyle or maybe invest in more property and develop it.

 

[Amalgam]

They might have been saying 10 for the whole meal.

That would make sense. I’ve seen so much wildly inaccurate reporting during this regarding mushroom toxicity and given the quote above was in response to my post discussing threshold level toxicity, I totally overlooked that this is indeed right in the ballpark in terms of the quantity of DC mushrooms in the meal as a whole.

 

[Ellery84]

If that's the case, I wonder what she wanted the money for. Because I wouldn't think she has opulent tastes, and she's bought her dream property and built a house. Perhaps she wanted the kids to go to a private secondary school and was arguing that her husband's side of the family pay for it.

That’s totally possible.

I’m just spitballing here, but there may have been an ongoing discussion about child custody…. Often the person with the least % of custody pays the most in child support, so that may have been of concern.

IMO

Imo

 

[bearbear]

i read an interesting article about female serial killers (over 3 deaths) mostly they use poison and the motive is usually always about money, not suggesting ep is guilty or a serial killer

Female Serial Killers Do Exist And Are Known As 'Quiet' Killers

We may hear more about male serial killers, like Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, but female serial killers do exist. They just murder for different reasons.

www.discovermagazine.com

 

[straycatlady]

10 decent sized DC mushrooms sounds awfully high.

The amatoxin content of death cap mushrooms ranges between 1240-2950 milligrams per kilogram of dried whole mushrooms.

The minimum lethal dose for amatoxin is 0.1 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. This works out to 7-10mg for people in the weight range of 70-100kg.

For a 10mg dose of amatoxin, 8.06-3.39grams of dried death caps are required, depending upon potency.

Mushrooms are 80-90% water when picked.

So roughly 33-80grams of fresh death cap mushrooms are a minimum lethal dose.

This means that one large death cap can contain a lethal dose.

Reference for Amatoxin content :
Journal of Chromatography A

Volume 598, Issue 2, 15 May 1992, Pages 227-236

Simultaneous assay for amatoxins and phallotoxins in Amanita phalloides Fr. by high-performance liquid chromatography

F. Enjalbert ∗, C. Gallion, F. Jehl, H. Monteil,

Body weight might be a factor in why she didn't become fatally Ill as the others did.
She may have needed double the dose compared to the others.