Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #17

[grannie]

Yes, it would implicate the owner. However we started this conversation with your statement that because there has not been an arrest yet, this must indicate that the police found no evidence in the cars,

You have just agreed that if the police found something linking the car to the crime scene, it would implicate the owner. This statement works in reverse. If the owner has not been arrested, then the police has nothing biochemical on him found in the car.

 

[itsthevibe]

"We". Doesn't necessarily include YOU. Read whatever you want to into it.

And the rest of your post IS your opinion, and you are entitled to it, just like I'm entitled to mine. As I said, people act differently and that's what my partner would do. Whether it's to salvage what he could of the business, it's still WORK and something he needs to do. If you don't like my posts, ignore me.... I don't mind at all . Personal attacks are against the rules, better you ignore than get banned.

No attack meant - your're entitled to your opinion, absolutely. My query was about you using the words "We must", instead of "I wouldn't" which would be the opinion you're entitled to, as opposed to prescribing what others 'must' do.

I partially agreed with you about the work thing anyway, no attacking for your opinion at all.

 

[kailee]

i find the geocache link is very interesting.
I do hope QPS have a good look into the logs of the one close to GBCs home and @ Kholo Creek.

If the perp/s were aware of it, they would also know it would only be a matter of time before the body was located and bring some form of 'closure'

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/tas/TASCCA/2012/2.html

Just to add to Hawkins post about convictions on circumstantial evidence only...IMO the DPP would be quite prepared to take the case to trial on circumstantial evidence provided that the evidence was enough to leave no other alternative than accused.

Thanks for your valued opinion ACTUS REUS and HAWKINS. Again appreciated. Gives us something to think about in terms of circumstantial evidence pointing only to an accused person and a possible conviction.

 

[mountainhigh]

I do not know for sure. I am just assuming that because if the police did find anything suspicious, they would not have waited for more evidence. There simply could not be more evidence, I believe. Unless the perps have videorecorded the crime.

appreciate your comments but sorry its just not the way it works. they have to slowly and surely build a water tight case otherwise an experienced defence barrister will rip them to shreds.

Even if they did find some very interesting things in one of the cars it would simply be included as part of their evidence file.
Without a murder weapon, witnesses or extremely strong crime scene evidence this is how these cases have to play out I'm afraid.
build, build and build even more evidence so the rats can't weasle out of it based on 'circumstancial'
when these guys knock on that door, rest assured, it will take a miracle for that individual/s to get out of it. And they won't knock on that door until they are good and ready

 

[CaseClosed]

You have just agreed that if the police found something linking the car to the crime scene, it would implicate the owner. This statement works in reverse. If the owner has not been arrested, then the police has nothing biochemical on him found in the car.

.... please don't twist my words .... Thank You!

 

[grannie]

Dont you feel that was the polices facetious way of being non accusationary? I felt from that, that they believed it to be either of the two cars and they were wanting mroeso confirmation of it, rather than the belief that it was a "similar" car, that wasn't theirs (ABCs or GBCs). JMO

I do not think so. Not in the murder case. Just recently, another mother of three has been murdered. The police's arrested the killer before they found his knife. It was her ex boyfriend who could not cope with the fact that she rejected him.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-30/man-charged-over-canberra-stabbing-murder/3922226

 

[willough]

I do not think so. Not in the murder case. Just recently, another mother of three has been murdered. The police's arrested the killer before they found his knife. It was her ex boyfriend who could not cope with the fact that she rejected him.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-30/man-charged-over-canberra-stabbing-murder/3922226

Sorry Grannie....This has nothing to do with the perception that the police were looking for similar cars, that werent the BCs, early in the piece. I believe they were wanting to know the BCs vehicle movements....Not looking for similar cars.

PS as a side : I was under the impression this Hawker guy, had been found with blood ALL over him, though appeared uninjured.

 

[Makara]

You have just agreed that if the police found something linking the car to the crime scene, it would implicate the owner. This statement works in reverse. If the owner has not been arrested, then the police has nothing biochemical on him found in the car.

Grannie, the police have more than likely linked the car(s) to the crime. What they have to do is prove who was actually driving those cars.

 

[Fuskier]

I have to go to bed but just wanted to say to those who have left flowers etc that you are awesome human beings to care so genuinely for this woman and her family. I suspect that you'll be able to at least see that some justice is done in this case. There will be a trial and conviction(s) eventually IMO. MOO.

Thanks HAWKINS that is a heartening message.

 

[itsthevibe]

You have just agreed that if the police found something linking the car to the crime scene, it would implicate the owner. This statement works in reverse. If the owner has not been arrested, then the police has nothing biochemical on him found in the car.

No, it does not work in reverse. The police could be compiling a range of evidence before arrest. They are building an entire case, not rushing in as soon as they find one piece of the case that implicates guilt and basing their entire case on that.

So - if the owner has not been arrested, it could mean that there is a whole lot of evidence being put together in a complicated case, and the police are trying to make it watertight before they arrest.

 

[Aunty]

Hi I'm new. Been reading since day1. Every single thread.I hope what I say now will not cause too much trouble. This is what I think happened to lovely Allison that night.
Hairdressers.


welcome Aunty, Geez, what time did you start typing that?? breakfast time!
look, quite plausable just like many other non premeditated theories floating about. Who are we to know what happened if this was not premeditated and occured due to a garden variety domestic blow out gone horribly wrong, similar to the way you have thrown into the mix.

However I think from memory the witness saw the cars at 4am near kholo bridge..

I may missed it in your thesis (sorry kidding only) but did you address this timeframe also??

I was hoping you super sleuthers would pick it apart and keep some of my thoughts as maybe plausible and move the discussions somewhere .

 

[grannie]

my point was it was an AL ANon meeting, for families affect by alcoholism, why would you assume that they would be drug addicts rather than anyone else?

Because I did not know that Al Anon is for families. I thought AA and Al Anon are the same thing. They are not, which changes things. I know a lot of worriesome facts about AA, that's why I explored that avenue. If GBC (NBC, TM) are innocent, then who? There should be somebody who was close to BC's house that night. Nobody talks about BC's neighbours or their visitors. That's another possible scenario. Perhaps, less probable. But there has to be somebody who knew Allison...

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Dont you feel that was the polices facetious way of being non accusationary? I felt from that, that they believed it to be either of the two cars and they were wanting mroeso confirmation of it, rather than the belief that it was a "similar" car, that wasn't theirs (ABCs or GBCs). JMO

I agree.. they need to tread carefully in what they say, and they do word things certain ways for a reason. I totally believe they were talking about the BC cars. ANd actually I am sure it has been reported numerous times, that they were requesting witnesses if anyone had seen the BC cars that night, particuarly the captiva(I think) and Allison at the roundabout. WOuld need to hunt out links..Do I have to? lol.. (to tired)

Yes, it would implicate the owner. However we started this conversation with your statement that because there has not been an arrest yet, this must indicate that the police found no evidence in the cars, to which I indicated that it is not necessarily the case.

Again I agree..how do we know what they have found. They are playing things very tight. for a reason. Just as they won't let out cause of death. I believe(but only my belief), that the Captiva may still be impounded. To me this indicates it is of use or value to the investigation(as the BC computers). WHich may likely mean evidence. But it really is JMO.

 

[marlywings]

June 04, 2012 12:00AM

BROOKFIELD residents, SES volunteers and fire officers who searched for Allison Baden-Clay will play each other in a cricket fundraiser to raise money for the murdered mum's daughters.
Concerned for the welfare of the three young girls, Brookfield United Cricket Club has organised the match, which takes place at the Brookfield Showgrounds on June 24, after emergency officers who helped search for the 43-year-old got on board.

Organiser Mike Kaye, of Brookfield United Cricket Club, said a raffle involving several donated prizes, including a trip for two to Noosa and a cricket bat from cricket specialist Keith Dudgeon, would help raise funds.

"The police, because it's an ongoing investigation, couldn't be involved so we decided to play against the fire brigade and the SES who did all the searching out here," he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...llisons-children/story-e6freoof-1226381980933

 

[willough]

SPOT ON ITV.

Lets say as a hypothetical, we have TMs prints in Gerards car....That is evidence...Though it certainly is not arrestable evidence at this stage, as there is the chance she was still involved in the affair.....which makes it circumstantial.......as her defence could claim "It was there because they had dinner on the wednesday" or whatever.

Its a matter of finding more to link those prints of TM, to a string of happenings.

Just an example.

 

[marlywings]

Mr Kaye said Allison's friends had banded together to help keep her daughters' lives "as normal as possible" by assisting with transport to school and dance lessons.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...llisons-children/story-e6freoof-1226381980933

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

No, it does not work in reverse. The police could be compiling a range of evidence before arrest. They are building an entire case, not rushing in as soon as they find one piece of the case that implicates guilt and basing their entire case on that.

So - if the owner has not been arrested, it could mean that there is a whole lot of evidence being put together in a complicated case, and the police are trying to make it watertight before they arrest.

Yes they DO NOT want it thrown out or discounted by any defence. It has been said before. The police will ONLY make a move when the time is right. They need ALL they can to make a case stick. If it means hanging on to any evidence to gather what they need, they will. I believe this is turning into a complicated case for them. MOO

 

[Makara]

June 04, 2012 12:00AM

BROOKFIELD residents, SES volunteers and fire officers who searched for Allison Baden-Clay will play each other in a cricket fundraiser to raise money for the murdered mum's daughters.
Concerned for the welfare of the three young girls, Brookfield United Cricket Club has organised the match, which takes place at the Brookfield Showgrounds on June 24, after emergency officers who helped search for the 43-year-old got on board.

Organiser Mike Kaye, of Brookfield United Cricket Club, said a raffle involving several donated prizes, including a trip for two to Noosa and a cricket bat from cricket specialist Keith Dudgeon, would help raise funds.

"The police, because it's an ongoing investigation, couldn't be involved so we decided to play against the fire brigade and the SES who did all the searching out here," he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...llisons-children/story-e6freoof-1226381980933

That is absolutley wonderful. :woohoo: My eyes stung with tears when I read that. Those guys have been through a harrowing time in the search for and discovery of Allison. What a great way to let off some steam and enjoy the camaraderie of the peers.

Thanks for posting marlywings. :tyou:

 

[pirathames]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here but I have been watching and reading this case for a number of weeks now. Over that time, I have been really impressed by the time and effort that a number of members have and are devoting to trying to make sense of the motives behind this terrible crime and/or possible theories into what happened. It has been fascinating to read, but more importantly, it is testament to the memory of Allison and comforting to know that so many of us care about obtaining justice for a beautiful person who's life was taken under the most terrible of circumstances. I think we all cling to the ideal that the best case scenario in regards to who is responsible for her death does not mean that her children have to suffer through the loss of another parent. In regards to that, only time and patience will tell.

Introductions aside, what prompted me to post tonight was the recent discussion regarding evidence, whether biochemical, physical or circumstantial, that may or may not have been found in either GBC or ABC's cars during initial police investigation. It is incorrect to assume that because a search has been conducted and that there were no subsequent or immediate arrests that no evidence was found. Compiling evidence during a murder investigation is a mammoth task that can, and often does, take weeks, months or even years to completely and satisfactorily carry out before an arrest can be made.

Evidence is gathered as if it were pieces of a puzzle, and each and every piece of evidence that is found must be catalogued, pieced together and compared against a huge number of factors that then determine whether that evidence is able to be used to make an arrest. Blood specimens in and of themselves are subjected to an in-depth number of tests to determine not just who the DNA within that blood belongs to, but also whether it appeared when the victim was still alive or whether it presented after the time of death. There are a huge number of factors that come into play when evidence is collated and catalogued and it is very, very rarely a case of "we found traces of the victims blood (or any other evidence, blood is just an example) in this vehicle - let's pin our entire investigation on that and go ahead and make an arrest". That is simply not how investigations work.

I believe that whether or not the police found viable evidence in either vehicle is going to be something that works alongside other evidence found to ultimately reach a conclusion that person/s X/Y are responsible for Allison's death. Police investigations are nothing like CSI or NCIS. The police have one shot at making an arrest and they are not going to wager their entire investigation and the justice we all want for Allison on evidence found in a vehicle. They must show that they have thoroughly investigated ALL evidence found. This is clearly a complicated case with a possibility of one or more perpetrators and the police are exhausting all leads and all contributing factors before they make an arrest. We all hope that that happens sooner rather than later, but to suggest that no evidence was found because an arrest has not been made implies a misunderstanding of how police investigations work.

Thanks to all for your continued passion regarding bringing Allison's killer/s to justice, and for taking the time to read this. Happy sleuthing.