Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 #20

[Rational]

I mean if the police were fooled by a silver tongue

Or were taken in by something like 'my father NBC is on the same board as commissioner Atkinson so please just leave'?

 

[BreakingNews]

MG is the info from an American website, as I don't think we have degrees of murder here.

Mani you are correct. I've been on a jury in a murder trial in Australia. Murder is murder.

 

[Thinking]

exactly CC...so the chances of police coming then leaving without sighting Allison are only going to be applicable if DV was not an issue within this marriage.
IMO I think puts to rest the thought that Allison was not there if they turned up that night.
In other words, I believe that Allison was alive and well when the police (if the police) were called out that night for a disturbance at their home. If they turned up, they stayed to make sure she was ok MOO :moo:

So why would the police have initially said Allison may have been dead as early as 8pm? I'm really not sure about the rumour that they attended that night I must admit. I honestly don't see why it wouldn't have been in the media - so many other things have been reported and alluded to that could incite a "lynch mob" and also affect the children - why not this? Not sure that it happened.

 

[minni]

Thanks Rational! your story made ME think too, about something we've talked about in earlier threads, that I personally believe could be relevant

I really feel that its possible GBC and ABC still loved each other...maybe deeply. I know we believe he is a and a tosser and has cheated on her more times than we could count.... these are all character flaws we believe he has, but in all reality we don't know the full story really, as usually we go in search of the seedy info.

But that doesnt mean that arsewipes can't love deeply too (sorry I made a deal with myself to stop swearing on this forum today!!!) I think its quite possible that he loved Allison completely and intensely and perhaps this is where his problems lay. Some men (maybe women too, I dont know about that part) fall in love with someone they perceive to be above them (and they usually are in these cases) ie. the 'settler' and the 'reacher'

It may be that Allison settled, and GBC reached. and when the male feels inferior to the woman he loves so deeply, he gets very resentful. And nasty. And sometimes cheats to build himself up again.

I know we aren't discussing this avenue at the moment, but does anyone think their relationship may have had some of these qualities?

Also, another area of discussion which is kind of along these lines was the possibility that GBC was a sex addict..does anyone have much info on that? if you respone, I swear I wont think you are a sex addict :floorlaugh:

 

[Nads]

At the very beginning of this investigation the Police Superintendent said "We are treating this as an Unlawful Homicide". I found those words curious as I thought all homicides were 'unlawful'.I did some searching and found this article useful. I'm not sure if it Australian formation but can't see that that would effect the definition. I Moo loudly here .

Murder vs. Manslaughter

Killing another person is commonly referred to as murder. However, the precise term for the killing of one person by another is homicide. Murder is a form of criminal homicide that has a precise legal meaning. Murder is usually defined as the "unlawful killing of another with malice aforethought (or "an abandoned and malignant heart"). Malice aforethought refers to the perpetrator's intention of doing harm.

There are different legal variations of murder, known as degrees. Degrees of murder vary by the gravity (seriousness) of the offense (usually measured by the intent of the perpetrator) and the sentence assigned to that offense. For example, murder in the first degree, or first-degree murder, carries the sternest sentences and is usually reserved for murders committed with premeditation or extreme cruelty.

Manslaughter is also a form of criminal homicide. The difference between murder and manslaughter is in the element of intent. In order to commit voluntary manslaughter, a person must have committed a homicide, but have acted in the "heat of passion." This mental state must have been caused by legally sufficient provocation that would cause a reasonable person of ordinary temperament to lose self-control. To convict a person of manslaughter, it must be proved that the person who committed the homicide had adequate provocation (this cannot involve words alone), acted in the heat of passion, and lacked the opportunity to cool that passion. There must also be a connection between the incident of provocation, the heat of passion, and the act that caused the homicide.

Involuntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from a failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or from the commission of an act involving a risk of injury or death that is done in an unlawful, reckless, or grossly negligent manner. Involuntary manslaughter is a relatively new legal concept. Its exact definition varies greatly by jurisdiction, and is sometimes known as second- or third-degree manslaughter.

In order to convict someone of either murder or manslaughter, the distinct elements of each crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and the actions of the perpetrator cannot be explained or excused by any legal defense, excuse, or justification. Murder and manslaughter also differ in the sentences imposed for each crime. As the perpetrator of manslaughter is assumed to have evidenced less mental culpability, the sentence for manslaughter is usually less than that for murder.

I didn't see self defence in there?

 

[Mani]

Mani you are correct. I've been on a jury in a murder trial in Australia. Murder is murder.

Thanks, I was just about to search Hawkins posts BN as he told us about it and I thought that's how our legal system worked.

 

[Timmy]

Or were taken in by something like 'my father NGB is on the same board as commissioner Atkinson so please just leave'?

Could this also be why the police have never really given a straight story about when she was last seen and the circumstances of the Thursday night/Friday morning because they didn't sight Allison and now realize they should have taken their investigations further that night? IMO

 

[Nads]

Thanks Rational! your story made ME think too, about something we've talked about in earlier threads, that I personally believe could be relevant

I really feel that its possible GBC and ABC still loved each other...maybe deeply. I know we believe he is a and a tosser and has cheated on her more times than we could count.... these are all character flaws we believe he has, but in all reality we don't know the full story really, as usually we go in search of the seedy info.

But that doesnt mean that arsewipes can't love deeply too (sorry I made a deal with myself to stop swearing on this forum today!!!) I think its quite possible that he loved Allison completely and intensely and perhaps this is where his problems lay. Some men (maybe women too, I dont know about that part) fall in love with someone they perceive to be above them (and they usually are in these cases) ie. the 'settler' and the 'reacher'

It may be that Allison settled, and GBC reached. and when the male feels inferior to the woman he loves so deeply, he gets very resentful. And nasty. And sometimes cheats to build himself up again.

I know we aren't discussing this avenue at the moment, but does anyone think their relationship may have had some of these qualities?

Also, another area of discussion which is kind of along these lines was the possibility that GBC was a sex addict..does anyone have much info on that? if you respone, I swear I wont think you are a sex addict :floorlaugh:

I think my husband and I both thought we were settling, lol.

 

[Mani]

So why would the police have initially said Allison may have been dead as early as 8pm? I'm really not sure about the rumour that they attended that night I must admit. I honestly don't see why it wouldn't have been in the media - so many other things have been reported and alluded to that could incite a "lynch mob" and also affect the children - why not this? Not sure that it happened.

Thinking - love your style!

 

[Liadan]

phew a day or two is a long time in WS world!!! Couldn't believe the number of threads -you guys have been busy!

Just wanted to put forth an opinion -
Squizzey1 mentioned the possibility of bath water in the lungs of ABC; well at local jungle drum gatherings this fact has been discussed and does not fit with what the locals are saying. (no drowning - but death at home) This is hearsay again - and nothing substantial to back it up, sorry. Defintely all due respect to Squizzey1!
:twocents:

 

[Keyboredom]

I understand what you are saying but also believe that sometimes even neighbours are not aware of DV. It isn't always loud. IMO

There's references in past threads to neighbours having heard disturbances in the past at the BC home. That could be consistent with the counselling the couple were allegedly undergoing, if it involved forced nightly discussions as a prev poster said. A jilted/hurt wife trying to get compassion or sympathy/commitment from a cheating egotist (which might be what GBC was IMO) would likely cause some shouting.

Neighbours have definitely given a lot of information to police. From Day One.

I don't have evidence of who killed Allison but I can assure you GBC is no 'silver tongue' from any reports. If anyone thinks police have been mislead or confused by something GBC has said, this is something you can be sure hasn't happened.

A year or two might pass before charges are laid, particularly where a connection to an accomplice is being investigated. They've got to get this right, first and only time. A couple of months isn't reason to panic that the investigators have nothing ... They have p-l-e-n-t-y.

My guess is that the eventual case will involve a son and father, underlying financial motivation, heat of the moment anger/confusion, then panic, coupled with unexpected witnesses and a lack of support from people who might be expected to help the perpetrators when everything comes out. Completely JMO. I have no evidence who the murderer/accomplice is.

 

[Nads]

Thank you....that's what I was after :rocker:

Is self defence a lawful homicide?

 

[Mani]

My humble apologies.... she says as she slumps away shoulders down head hung low in shame and embarrassed yet again. I have demoted myself to 'sleuth lurker' from this point forth... :banghead:

Nooooo, again - you mustn't - did you know I got my left and my right mixed up the other day and created confusion here? Sooner sent me a post that was only here for three nanoseconds laughing at me..........tee hee!
Yes, I saw it Sooner, for when you read this post - it had spray cans saying thank you and when I looked for it later, it had disappeared! lol

The good thing about this forum is that we learn something from everyone.

:nevermind:

 

[Flinders]

Being pedantic here, sorry. The Qld Police website says they have a duty to in DV callouts "This ensures that

any people remaining at the property are safe

from any further harm and violence."

IMOO The police, if they were called to the home, saw that Allison wasn't at home. GBC could have shown proof that her car wasn't at home. Explaining that married couples just need time to cool off. Perhaps this may have put the focus on the family cars asap.

 

[Mani]

There's references in past threads to neighbours having heard disturbances in the past at the BC home. That could be consistent with the counselling the couple were allegedly undergoing, if it involved forced nightly discussions as a prev poster said. A jilted/hurt wife trying to get compassion or sympathy/commitment from a cheating egotist (which might be what GBC was IMO) would likely cause some shouting.

Neighbours have definitely given a lot of information to police. From Day One.

I don't have evidence of who killed Allison but I can assure you GBC is no 'silver tongue' from any reports. If anyone thinks police have been mislead or confused by something GBC has said, this is something you can be sure hasn't happened.

A year or two might pass before charges are laid, particularly where a connection to an accomplice is being investigated. They've got to get this right, first and only time. A couple of months isn't reason to panic that the investigators have nothing ... They have p-l-e-n-t-y.

My guess is that the eventual case will involve a son and father, underlying financial motivation, heat of the moment anger/confusion, then panic, coupled with unexpected witnesses and a lack of support from people who might be expected to help the perpetrators when everything comes out. Completely JMO. I have no evidence who the murderer/accomplice is.

Hello there KB,

Do you mean to say we are going to be here on this forum for a very long time discussing this case? We will be subject to talking about wallpaper colours!

 

[Timmy]

There's references in past threads to neighbours having heard disturbances in the past at the BC home. That could be consistent with the counselling the couple were allegedly undergoing, if it involved forced nightly discussions as a prev poster said. A jilted/hurt wife trying to get compassion or sympathy/commitment from a cheating egotist (which might be what GBC was IMO) would likely cause some shouting.

Neighbours have definitely given a lot of information to police. From Day One.

I don't have evidence of who killed Allison but I can assure you GBC is no 'silver tongue' from any reports. If anyone thinks police have been mislead or confused by something GBC has said, this is something you can be sure hasn't happened.

A year or two might pass before charges are laid, particularly where a connection to an accomplice is being investigated. They've got to get this right,

first and only time. A couple of months isn't reason to panic that the
investigators have nothing ... They have p-l-e-n-t-y.

My guess is that the eventual case will involve a son and father, underlying financial motivation, heat of the moment anger/confusion, then panic, coupled with unexpected witnesses and a lack of support from people who might be expected to help the perpetrators when everything comes out. Completely JMO.
I have no evidence who the murderer/accomplice is.

Just wasn't sure whether neighbours talking about DV was rumour or fact. Was just pointing out that DV can occur without anyone knowing.

 

[minni]

So why would the police have initially said Allison may have been dead as early as 8pm? I'm really not sure about the rumour that they attended that night I must admit. I honestly don't see why it wouldn't have been in the media - so many other things have been reported and alluded to that could incite a "lynch mob" and also affect the children - why not this? Not sure that it happened.

Thanks Thinking....excellent point...I have no idea and that throws it all out the window!

It is an actual fact that the police felt she may have been killed as early as 8pm.....

therefore if the police visited the house that night, and THAT could still be quite possible....it was NOT for a domestic, because if it was, there is your proof that they didnt demand to see her at that point, which is not normal procedure

so if they didnt see her, and left, it would mean the last OFFICIAL sighting of her was at the hairdressers.....

is it really likely the police would leave if hubby said she took off but was fine, just angry? I guess it could be especially if they had a squizzy around and couldnt see her, but I would like to hear more opinions on this...

If they did come and she wasnt there, and they were told she had gone walking...this might back up the gone for a walk if both cars were there at that time

THANKS THINKING my freaking head is spinning and confused so I will have to take a break to rethink this bit...you have made a really important point here...to me anyway

 

[grannie]

"They confirmed that Gerard Baden-Clay, the husband of the missing woman and the father of her three girls, was a person of interest in the investigation along with a number of people close to the couple."

"A neighbour whose property backs on to the Baden-Clays' residence said Ms Baden-Clay was a loving mother. <...> "They are such good, quiet neighbours, and the girls are so gorgeous and well behaved. "

"The Brookfield resident said a fellow neighbour told her of their dog barking in the yard, which shares a fence with the Baden-Clays."

"Insp Gundry refused to comment on the suggestion of a disturbance at the home on the night of Ms Baden-Clay's disappearance."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ng-in-brookfield/story-e6freoof-1226335681703

 

[minni]

I think my husband and I both thought we were settling, lol.

hahahhaha good one Nads

 

[minni]

Thanks Thinking....excellent point...I have no idea and that throws it all out the window!

It is an actual fact that the police felt she may have been killed as early as 8pm.....

therefore if the police visited the house that night, and THAT could still be quite possible....it was NOT for a domestic, because if it was, there is your proof that they didnt demand to see her at that point, which is not normal procedure

so if they didnt see her, and left, it would mean the last OFFICIAL sighting of her was at the hairdressers.....

is it really likely the police would leave if hubby said she took off but was fine, just angry? I guess it could be especially if they had a squizzy around and couldnt see her, but I would like to hear more opinions on this...

If they did come and she wasnt there, and they were told she had gone walking...this might back up the gone for a walk if both cars were there at that time

THANKS THINKING my freaking head is spinning and confused so I will have to take a break to rethink this bit...you have made a really important point here...to me anyway

oh boy, just re read my post and even I dont understand it!!!! my main point here that needs to be clear for all is:

WHETHER OR NOT THE POLICE ATTENDED A CALL OUT TO THE HOME OF ALLISON AND GBC ON THURSDAY 19TH APRIL, THE FACT REMAINS THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBLE CHANCE THAT ALLISON WAS THERE, OR IF SHE WAS THERE, WAS SIGHTED BY THE POLICE..... THEY WOULD NOT HAVE LATER STATED TO THE PUBLIC THAT SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN KILLED AS EARLY AS 8PM IF THEY HAD SEEN HER AT 9 OR 10PM, ALIVE ....