Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #11

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If CSK gave anyone a business card that would have to be the riskiest maneuver to use....so many things could go wrong for him.

Obviously not his real business card. Whatever "identity" he had assumed for the chat up. Easy enough to print some fake cards with phoney numbers etc. what's the worry, even if she showed it to someone or rang the numbers, it's all fake. She'd just dismiss it as some random nutter, but if she fancied him and believed his, you're the one for me story, she'd quietly put it in her pocket and not show her mates.
 
Good morning ,

I didn't want to use quote feature in fear of my last post photos being repeated again and again, filling up the forum. I've taken screen shots of what I'm replying to.

BreVeTte,
5e461d9bb82bc2877e63c676e1923a09.png


I was up till late last night watching the CCTV footage and took numerous screen shots. After watching it so many times I'm more headed to the opinion the PMM peering around the corner isn't MM, it's man in the vest (without his vest on), as you and others have suggested. Here are some side by side pics for interests sake. More so for height and rolled sleeves comparison.

These are man in the vest entering the door vs the peering out of the door PMM.

343b54f2feb2a7bb7d6cd880ba8ea15d.jpg


You also asked for a more defined photo of the man in the vest. As I said I took so many screen shots but none were able to be more defined. The best I could do to is point out that the both have similar hair line parts. This is the best I could do.

a4d42767828c9d671e27e4719a0fb145.jpg





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Toomanytoocountmu and video posters


I'm not sure if I see what others do in the videos and the screen shots. The pixelated screen shots of BRE magnified, looks like a duck to my eye. The person who posted the images of BRE in the shed and his strange gait, I thought was quite clever to identify that fact and interesting. The pick up of BRE at Crocs was also excellent. Two really good pieces of information that builds a picture of BRE. Possibly the only two facts posted in the last week and a half that stood out from the rest.

If you place someone who is a known suspect into a scenario like the video, I think there is a potential to start to see elements that aren't really there. Especially if you are looking at it so closely frame by frame, or now pixel by pixel.

Hey Grok,

Yes, in the light of day I can see my photos look like a bit of a stretch and are way too pixelated for a fair/ definite assessment. I should never post late at night...I was sure I was on to something. I remembered this morning also that the footage had been sent to NASA for assessment... I'm sure their equipment is far more advanced than my Instagram app ;)






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Re; Telstra infrastructure...it has been previously mentioned by other posters that telstra infrastructure could bare some connection to the cases.....the attached images are streetview images I have screenshot of telstra infrastructure in the vicinity of BE parents Gay Street Huntingdale property.

Someone mentioned if he killed SS and assuming she was his first kill...he would dispose of her somewhere he felt "safe" and well hidden "like across the road in bushland from parents/childhood home"....as you can see, there is plenty of bushland ...I really believe this bushland is worth a search for any remains.

I also realise the structure may seem post 1996? But could it be a possibility the structure was a rebuild/upgrade?
 

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I actually dont think that much work or effort would have gone into it. These people can spot vulnerability from a mile off.

Guys also dont even need to lay it on that thick to be charming. Men dont have to come across like Cary Grant and give businesscards and butter women up to charm and gain trust. It is far, far easier than that.

I also dont get that vibe from him. He comes across as neat, clean, somewhat normal and somewhat trustworthy. Average. Which in itself can gain someone's trust.
And also, even when guys do come across this way and girls still get a hinky feeling around them we are often quick to dismiss that feeling and go along with them.

We all have it in our minds creeps look and behave a certain way. Often this is not the case. And you know, if David Birnie can get a chick, hell, it doesn't take much.

Yes, but what a "chick"! I agree that we do overlook stuff, but one girl had gone missing, our poor SS, so he would have been thinking this might be a bit harder to do this time, better try a new tack? There's also the game of it, planning and fantasising about how clever he is, and how he can fool these lovely young "upper class" women. It's just a theory. I hear what you're saying and agree with a lot of the points you've made, just think, by this stage he was getting very full of himself and enjoying the "hunt".
 
I'm hoping he is giving information..unfortunately its the only control/power he really has left at the moment..dont see him giving it up easily when there isn't a reward or benefit for him.
Think only hope is if his SD starts doubting him and asks him to tell them .
Could be surprised though. Hope so

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I'm hoping he will open up too. If BRE is found guilty and receives a life sentence he might relish the idea to come clean and relive his crimes at the same time. If he's the sort that takes pride in being able to evade police capture for so long and explaining his motives, it will happen.

In this article, 'An Examination of Serial Murder in Australia' released by the AIC, 2 did explain their perverse motives. There is a table drawn up of known serial murders in Australia, their MO, victim type, motive etc, the CSK is included but unsolved, now they can add to their research and report their findings.

Two of the serial killers who committed mission oriented serial killings had a hatred for women. When one of the serial killers was questioned by police as to why he killed the women, his response was 'I just hate 'em'. Another serial killer's response in relation to his motive was 'To me, I think of it as an achievement, because I have achieved absolutely nothing in my lifetime... to murder and to get away with it was an achievement... at the point of killing... I didn't care'.

A list of classified types are - (there can be more than one at play) It will be interesting which will be ascribed to the CSK (BRE). I suppose it depends if he confesses or not.

Visionary - driven to kill by voices or visions, either from God and angels or demons and the devil.
Mission-oriented - concentrates on the actual killing and its outcome. They see it as their duty to eliminate individuals they consider unworthy or undesirable, such as prostitutes, from society.
Hedonistic - divided into two sub-categories of lust killer and thrill killer. The central focus for the lust killer is sex; before, during or after the killing. For the thrill killer, the act of killing is simply for enjoyment, pleasure or excitement.
Power/control - motives are the pleasures received from complete control and dominance over the victim. The killer feels important and powerful. Prolonging the act ensures greater gratification (Holmes & DeBurger 1998).

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/341-360/tandi346.html
 
They seemed to be watching each other and makes sense she'd be checking her time etc if she was waiting for someone to finish their shift
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8f496934beed7aaa6f1f2c74d16eba6c.jpg


PMM may well be door man without his vest. MM is quite a bit bigger than PMM and has his sleeves rolled up the same as vest guy

Sorry I cant get clearer images. I tried !
395f4c007b922312ed950a012d9187c6.jpg


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Toomanytoocountmu and video posters


I'm not sure if I see what others do in the videos and the screen shots. The pixelated screen shots of BRE magnified, looks like a duck to my eye. The person who posted the images of BRE in the shed and his strange gait, I thought was quite clever to identify that fact and interesting. The pick up of BRE at Crocs was also excellent. Two really good pieces of information that builds a picture of BRE. Possibly the only two facts posted in the last week and a half that stood out from the rest.

If you place someone who is a known suspect into a scenario like the video, I think there is a potential to start to see elements that aren't really there. Especially if you are looking at it so closely frame by frame, or now pixel by pixel.

Yep, with you there, in the absence of much new information I feel the thread has rather jumped the shark.

I've always tended towards the blitz attack MO, but I don't know quite what to make of the CCTV. Have the reports of sightings of Jane Rimmer further down Stirling Hwy been completely ruled out?
 
Re; Telstra infrastructure...it has been previously mentioned by other posters that telstra infrastructure could bare some connection to the cases.....the attached images are streetview images I have screenshot of telstra infrastructure in the vicinity of BE parents Gay Street Huntingdale property.

Someone mentioned if he killed SS and assuming she was his first kill...he would dispose of her somewhere he felt "safe" and well hidden "like across the road in bushland from parents/childhood home"....as you can see, there is plenty of bushland ...I really believe this bushland is worth a search for any remains.

I also realise the structure may seem post 1996? But could it be a possibility the structure was a rebuild/upgrade?

Good call. It certainly would be ironic if he chose a place close to home and this did turn out to be 'safe' until his capture, while his other victims were found within a short period. Now he's been apprehended, hopefully the police will concentrate on areas such as you've suggested.

This is what's been to BRE's advantage, (if he's the CSK) the extensive knowledge of bush land because of his profession. Vincent Stanford discarded his victim, Stephanie Scott, at Cocoparra National Park where he had camped with family on numerous occasions.
BRE could head off in any direction and know the lay of the land quite well! Dammit!
 
Not necessarily would she put her jacket on, even if it was cold. I know when I was younger I would shiver away with a thin top on or skimpy dress because I wanted to look nice/and a bit sexy (and I see a lot of young women today as well dress that way). Long ago in a galaxy far, far away.....:)

Interesting point.

If JR was waiting for someone, she would want to look young and sexy too. Hence she's not wearing the jacket.


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I hope my following input won't have me shot down in flames - please be gentle, as I have not previously given my own take on the dynamics of the CCTV outside the claremont, but having studied the CCTV - the body language - over and over, and having since read some posted opinions which lend support to my own interpretation of what I observe,
I will put my theory forward (partly as a possible explanation as to 'how/why' Jane may have naively decided to become separated from her peers.)

Aside from the blitz attack ideation, it has also been spec'd the girls felt at enough ease to go freely with whomever they had accepted a lift due to having some familiarity(?) eg taxi driver, pretend cop, a regular
I am thinking along the lines of a recognised 'claremont hotel regular'
- more specifically an employee - and that is why I asked, earlier, about entrances, exits and carparking which may have only been accessible to staff.



and I agree with artygunner :



The vested man is initially seen smoking, with his foot up on the railing, shortly after midnight. The huge mobile (or walkie) hanging off the back of his strides suggests to me that he is a member of the hotel staff who is having a smoke because 00:00 is his clock-off time.



I spec' JR had backtracked to the Claremont in hopes of hooking up with the vested employee having had earlier occasion(s) for brief exchange - he may have even said if you're still about when i finish work (a) we could go for coffee (b) i'm going to a party with a mate if you'd like to come, we could hook up? (c) i'll give you a lift (d) etc

Regardless, after he finishes smoking, Jane's attention is certainly in his direction as he begins to walk toward the camera - it's ever so subtle, but they are both aware of each other.
In fact, pause the clip, frame by frame and you can see that as he walks towards the door, just before he veers to his left - there's a distinct moment where he and Jane make direct eye contact, at which point I note a slight softening of her face and the beginning of a smile - he notices Jane, but he's aloof and his back is soon towards her while he waits at the doorway to re-enter the hotel
— when suddenly the MM comes into view —
Jane definitely does appear to recognise the MM, but I don't interpret her exaggerated laughter as having much to do with him, as much as I consider it her flirtatious last ditch effort to capture the fleeting vested employee's attention while she is still within his earshot, she wants him to hear her, to let him know that she's still there, available, vivacious, and to be taken notice of ... again too late ... he enters the building, and once inside, i spec he's in a hurry to clock off and he removes his work vest having finished for the night.
By now the MM is also somewhere out of the street cameras' range.
The now unvested employee is next seen peeping from the doorway, perhaps discreetly checking whether Jane is still there, and perhaps also checking for any sign of that mate whom I spec' he may have arranged to meet after work to go partying.
(Consider that MM may have been the vested employee's mate/lift, and that Jane's recognition was simply because she had met him previously as an associate of vested employee, and she was pleased to see MM arrive because it meant her night was about to begin.)

After the now un-vested employee has peeped and pulled his head back indoors, Jane moves forward a few steps. Craning slightly, she glances towards the doorway to see in which direction went that cute member of staff.
Aware that the unvested employee and his MM-mate(?) will soon round the corner to collect her, she checks her watch, and knowing they should only be a minute or two longer, steps out onto the road to see if she can see them coming. ..after which, she vanishes.
That is my take, but Mandy.Maree has also picked up on some of this -


What exactly happened next remains a mystery.
Like everyone, I speculate with whom Jane spent her final moments.
I am keeping an open mind, however based on my theory, of the MM it would be interesting if any possible link could be established between BRE and the vested employee.
I also consider the possibility that whoever did drive Jane away from the Claremont that night 'may not necessarily' have been the person responsible for her death (although I concede, it does seem most probable)


[emoji887]

I do agree that JR had a vested interest in likely the guy peeking his head out of the door. It could well of been an employee as a 12pm meeting time probably coincides with end of shift/pub closing??? Good pickup. It is odd though that this probability has never come out publically in the investigation.

I also agree she doesn't have a good familiarity with MM, she doesn't really pay him much attention walking to her or even when he is very close, it is only until he leans in and says something, potentially funny/pickup line to her. IMO he walks back the way he came after 20 seconds or so. What he said in the time to JR is critical IMO. Maybe "agh **** you know what Ive forgot my wallet". As discussed previously MM (or potential MM) loiters/stalls before approaching JR which IMO suggests calculated planning/thinking.

Its very hard to reach a conclusion on what transpired from the CCTV, but in my opinion JR had two critical interactions, one smiling with MM, and the other a vested interest in the peeping doorway guy who I do not believe was MM, IMO
 
Yep, with you there, in the absence of much new information I feel the thread has rather jumped the shark.

I've always tended towards the blitz attack MO, but I don't know quite what to make of the CCTV. Have the reports of sightings of Jane Rimmer further down Stirling Hwy been completely ruled out?
LOL these threads jumped the shark a couple of years ago, eg: numerology regarding birth dates of victims, patterns to the body/remains sites being part of some ritual, the schools the victims attended was deemed important to why they were chosen, the list goes on. It's all been discussed, this thread is quite tame, imo.
 
Serial killings are usually random opportunistic crimes..Cruising for victims does occur of course but there is not often any kind of link between the victims etc. Dumpsites are usually just random places that have no meaning either except knowledge of the area and accessibility to where the crime has/is occurring.. A lot of the wild scenarios here are off the charts. But I guess brainstorming has its uses.
 
If JR left with anyone else I'm sure he'd have come forward to be eliminated. AFAIK, MM is the only unidentified person in the clips shown.


I'v read it speculatively tossed in comments on here
- that all present at the Claremont were interviewed
-that all present were DNA'd
- an uncertainty as to whether the staff were included in that quota
(please don't ask me to source those random lines, i'd never be able to find, but I definitely read those unsure facts within comments. Being something that I had pondered, it stood out to me at the time of reading)

It would be interesting, and would please me to be made aware of what was actual FACT on that count.

As far as I'M aware, those present at the Claremont were "only interviewed" - and it was some couple of thousand taxi drivers who were later DNA'd.

^ so I agree with what you say, PrimeSuspect, based on the assumption that all were actually interviewed and that the ID's produced were double checked thoroughly by the interviewing investigators (who I am certain would claim this was the case)
However, if it could ever be proven otherwise, and found to not be the case (and when personal judgement calls are brought into play - I spec - the police, in the past, may have humanly erred on occasion and perhaps had the wool pulled over their eyes?) I myself can not totally rule out that someone present on that night "may" have known full well who theMM was, and perhaps 'covered' for him
•either in their belief that MM could not possibly have had any sinister involvement in what was later found to have transpired
•OR may have not been truthful about events & 'mateship alibis' due to own compromise at having had some level of personal involvement

this is JMHO for your additional consideration


[emoji887]
 
Serial killings are usually random opportunistic crimes..Cruising for victims does occur of course but there is not often any kind of link between the victims etc. Dumpsites are usually just random places that have no meaning either except knowledge of the area and accessibility to where the crime has/is occurring.. A lot of the wild scenarios here are off the charts. But I guess brainstorming has its uses.


Yes perhaps we are overthinking the CCTV footage. It could be as simple as:

* MM waiting/hiding on Gugeri St, sees vulnerable girl/target standing out front of hotel (JR).
* JR probably waiting for someone inside hotel
* MM approaches JR, tries to pick her up, or get her to move down street to darkness
* JR sometime later walks that way (why who knows)
* BLITZ attack
 
Yes perhaps we are overthinking the CCTV footage. It could be as simple as:

* MM waiting/hiding on Gugeri St, sees vulnerable girl/target standing out front of hotel (JR).
* JR probably waiting for someone inside hotel
* MM approaches JR, tries to pick her up, or get her to move down street to darkness
* JR sometime later walks that way (why who knows)
* BLITZ attack
Most likely scenario.
Just suss no one knows who MM is or that he never came forward. Maybe he was an overseas visitor, maybe he has also died at some point..or maybe he has something to hide.
Would have helped if police released his image when it happened though they did show people who were there so its unlikely he went in the hotels and bars.
So what exactly was he doing at that hour roaming?

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Yes perhaps we are overthinking the CCTV footage. It could be as simple as:

* MM waiting/hiding on Gugeri St, sees vulnerable girl/target standing out front of hotel (JR).
* JR probably waiting for someone inside hotel
* MM approaches JR, tries to pick her up, or get her to move down street to darkness
* JR sometime later walks that way (why who knows)
* BLITZ attack

The lack of evidence in this ( i believe the largest case in Australian history)causes us to overanalyse ever shred of evidence that is avaliable. I don't think its unusual. WA people want anaswers, how could this happen to us?
Everyone who lived in perth at the time was violated by the CSK.
Now perhaps it is our turn to violate the CSK?
 
Just suss no one knows who MM is or that he never came forward.
It is beyond unusual, indeed I remember at the time every adult male in the western suburbs was a suspect, you needed to know where you were the nights the girls went missing.

It points to the theory that MM came to claremont alone and knew nobody in claremont, except perhaps JR.
 
A lot of this reminds me of Bayley tbh.
I see them both as very similar monsters. Bayley would have killed more had he got away. He also tried to kiss Jill and said he got angry when she slapped him away.
I dont even think it's about the killing. Its about the rape and control for CSK and Bayley. And when the victims reject their advances or dont cooperate as planned...they go into rages .
Also helps with the avoiding detection and leaving no witnesses.

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Been thinking along those lines too. In regard to the break and enter and indecent assault on the poor sleeping 18 year old girl in Huntingdale on 15 February 1988 (when the white silk kimono was stolen off someone else’s washing line prior to the attack and dropped as he fled the scene), BE would have only been 19 years and 2 months old at the time (born Dec 1968). Wondering if the fact that this was the day after Valentine’s Day had anything to do with his chosen time for this attack? Did he have a secret crush on that poor girl in his neighbourhood (without her even knowing) and had hoped she’d notice him on Valentine’s Day or something but she didn’t and he couldn’t handle the perceived ‘rejection’ (in his warped, twisted sick mind) and took out his anger the next day? Speculation of course
 
I'm hoping he will open up too. If BRE is found guilty and receives a life sentence he might relish the idea to come clean and relive his crimes at the same time. If he's the sort that takes pride in being able to evade police capture for so long and explaining his motives, it will happen.

In this article, 'An Examination of Serial Murder in Australia' released by the AIC, 2 did explain their perverse motives. There is a table drawn up of known serial murders in Australia, their MO, victim type, motive etc, the CSK is included but unsolved, now they can add to their research and report their findings.



A list of classified types are - (there can be more than one at play) It will be interesting which will be ascribed to the CSK (BRE). I suppose it depends if he confesses or not.



http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/341-360/tandi346.html
Thanks for that PRIME SUSPECT, I found that about a year ago and read it all very interesting stuff. Which category would you put CSK into? From the limited information we have, and of course, just an opinion, I'm thinking he's Hedonistic. Re-reading what some of these guys have said about killing women, just so sickening! And as, I think it was CSK?
(our poster CSK? that is) said, there were/are so many sickos out there over 40 at the time of Claremont girls, raping women and I'm sure men too, it's mind blowing how dangerous the world is now. But as that serial killer HH Holmes proves, whom I mentioned previously, (he could have killed up to 200 people back in the late 1890s), we've had these strange, perverse people amongst us since the dawn of time.
 
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