Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #11

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Poking man in MM cctv clip
4d873d6dce65d43f2a094bdae641d5b5.jpg

Is it possible to capture better quality frames than #mandy.maree was able to capture ?
Seems worthy of a look after #toomanytoocount- found the promising hair-line match .

.
 
Now that he's been caught and his face is out there, I'm really surprised we haven't heard of more women coming forward The police must be working him hard to find out what he did with Sarah Spiers but he's not giving them anything it seems, even Adrian Bayley was forthcoming with information. I think BE has a bit wider criminal experience in him and with the police than it appears, he's holding out until he sees the brief and knows exactly what they've got. He'll either plead not guilty and take his chances on the evidence or cut a deal so he eventually gets parole, that deal will have to be the recovery of Sarah Spiers ... I think.

Adrian Bayley had an extensive criminal history, was known to police, and dare i say it, seemed of quite average (i'm being generous) intelligence. BE is probably a bit more savvy, has a reputation in the community to protect, and a decent, steady career.
 
So true. There were sixteen other women just disappear / murdered around the time CSK was active. I can't even find a list of who they all are. It's so sad. Karlie Pearce-Stevenson's murdered body was taken out of Belanglo Forest and lay in the morgue unidentified for years and she had actually been listed as a missing person. It wasn't until 7 years after death her daughter's body was found in a suitcase on the side of the road that there was a panic on in public outcry to find out who this little girl was and they were finally identified.

I agree, mandymaree (sorry, for some reason it's not letting me quote you right now!)

The problem with Bayley was that some of his victims mattered (Jill Meagher) but most of his victims didn't (sex workers, tourists.) In a town like Perth where there is a disparity of wealth and quite a number of sex workers and women who the press and police don't deem as worthy victims he could have practiced his rapist/perverted/serial killing career for a long time and gotten away with it based on stigma. It may not have even been a concerted effort on his behalf to target certain women but more so opportunistic but it is up to the police, media and society to determine their "worth". I also note that great effort was made to convey SS, CG and JR as "good girls". I mean, who knows what is tally really is!
 
Poking man in MM cctv clip
4d873d6dce65d43f2a094bdae641d5b5.jpg

Is it possible to capture better quality frames than #mandy.maree was able to capture ?
Seems worthy of a look after #toomanytoocount- found the promising hair-line match .

.

also - Toomanytoocount -
I would love to see a facial digi-edit of the vested man,
if poss, TiA


[emoji887]
 
I'd just like to add that the psychic identakit looks nothing like BE whatsoever, several members have commented on how similar it looks. When you first look at BE one feature stand outs dramatically, in both his high school photo and older photos he has very distinct cheek bone features. the above mentioned identakit does not have any cheek bone structure whatsoever. I guess people will see what they want to see.

Secondly, there are forum members that really need to do some of their own research or at least question/discuss certain discussed theories. reading over the last 15 or so pages I don't know how many times a theory or scenario has been proposed, some with seemingly no evidence whatsoever to back up a theory plucked from thin air, only to have other members taking it as almost gospel and fact without a second thought. trust nothing & question everything!
 
Hi, I want to show you these, it freaked me out a little.

I've zoomed in and used Instagram filters on the photo from the CCTV footage of PMM peering around the door ..

(The bottom left photo of a selection I took from someone's post today )
fbeb906b9a2c8a8921d1a555ce2e20e1.png



Ok as I was playing around with the photo filters I could make out a face .... (yes, very pixilated and alien looking but definitely some features stood out )
a2b2bc9ed75bb2cde41920132fe79883.png
6ee77a01f807ba0e5f07e448b46a7693.png


I then adjusted the school photo of BRE slightly by blurring it slightly so certain features stand out more
a00596acd34404f42e665407825e39e8.jpg


And here are the two for comparison. The side part in both the pics are almost identical.

5bc8f0a8874df0f3e1c1c452e56c3d8c.png


Edited spelling and mistake


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That nose and the brow stand out to me on all the indentikits and photo comparisons nowit stands out on your pmm head sticker-outer guy photo as well. Are you able to Compare that with the indentikit please. I reckon it would be dam close.

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i wish this forum had polls - i would love to ask

a) do you think MM is BRE
b) do you think the CCTV footage has a lot more in it
Yes too both for me.

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_______________


so sorry if this throws a spanner in the majority's works, but to all who have referred to the peeper man in the doorway as being PMM (possible mystery man) - I definitely do not agree.
He is tall with black hair and wearing a white shirt - but to me the similarity ends there,
IMO, he also seems substantially thinner than MM.

"Toomany", i will say sincerely that you've done some nice work on that facial image, however, another user previously posted my exact thoughts on the peeper :



Regarding the footpath scenario seen on CCTV, there have been so many theories already discussed.
I do have my own thoughts and a long-winded personal interpretation of events - which I'v been hesitant to put forward, and I continue to debate with myself as to whether or not I should [emoji848]?
[emoji887]
Hi BReVeTTe I reckon you should throw your hat in the ring and let us know your theorys at least then you wouldn't have to debate your self over them and you know what once discussions get going your views may make another sleuther see or think something that causes a breakthrough. The more discussion/theory's on these subjects the better certainly beats debating over steroid use and hand bag types 😀.

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I realise that calling steroid use probably sounds right out there but I've just done some more research. Adrian Bayley, serial rapist and murderer of Jill Meagher also took anabolic steroids.
 
I hope my following input won't have me shot down in flames - please be gentle, as I have not previously given my own take on the dynamics of the CCTV outside the claremont, but having studied the CCTV - the body language - over and over, and having since read some posted opinions which lend support to my own interpretation of what I observe,
I will put my theory forward (partly as a possible explanation as to 'how/why' Jane may have naively decided to become separated from her peers.)

Aside from the blitz attack ideation, it has also been spec'd the girls felt at enough ease to go freely with whomever they had accepted a lift due to having some familiarity(?) eg taxi driver, pretend cop, a regular
I am thinking along the lines of a recognised 'claremont hotel regular'
- more specifically an employee - and that is why I asked, earlier, about entrances, exits and carparking which may have only been accessible to staff.

extract ... Quite frankly the whole thing is 6 ish minutes of footage (including the non-seen 2 cams - which i believe to be one inside the front door and one at the rear or side delivery port).

and I agree with artygunner :

extract > ...I believe that the man with the black vest on in the cctv could be the same person as the man who sticks his head out the door - just without the vest. Shirt sleeves are rolled up and both with a watch

The vested man is initially seen smoking, with his foot up on the railing, shortly after midnight. The huge mobile (or walkie) hanging off the back of his strides suggests to me that he is a member of the hotel staff who is having a smoke because 00:00 is his clock-off time.

extract >...I think we are forgetting why the girls were out... to meet boys!!! Not specifically like I'm going out tonight to meet the man of my dreams but more like there's that cute guy again, he was here last week, oh he's smiling at me, maybe he's the one, I hope I see him next week, he might ask me out

I spec' JR had backtracked to the Claremont in hopes of hooking up with the vested employee having had earlier occasion(s) for brief exchange - he may have even said if you're still about when i finish work (a) we could go for coffee (b) i'm going to a party with a mate if you'd like to come, we could hook up? (c) i'll give you a lift (d) etc

Regardless, after he finishes smoking, Jane's attention is certainly in his direction as he begins to walk toward the camera - it's ever so subtle, but they are both aware of each other.
In fact, pause the clip, frame by frame and you can see that as he walks towards the door, just before he veers to his left - there's a distinct moment where he and Jane make direct eye contact, at which point I note a slight softening of her face and the beginning of a smile - he notices Jane, but he's aloof and his back is soon towards her while he waits at the doorway to re-enter the hotel
— when suddenly the MM comes into view —
Jane definitely does appear to recognise the MM, but I don't interpret her exaggerated laughter as having much to do with him, as much as I consider it her flirtatious last ditch effort to capture the fleeting vested employee's attention while she is still within his earshot, she wants him to hear her, to let him know that she's still there, available, vivacious, and to be taken notice of ... again too late ... he enters the building, and once inside, i spec he's in a hurry to clock off and he removes his work vest having finished for the night.
By now the MM is also somewhere out of the street cameras' range.
The now unvested employee is next seen peeping from the doorway, perhaps discreetly checking whether Jane is still there, and perhaps also checking for any sign of that mate whom I spec' he may have arranged to meet after work to go partying.
(Consider that MM may have been the vested employee's mate/lift, and that Jane's recognition was simply because she had met him previously as an associate of vested employee, and she was pleased to see MM arrive because it meant her night was about to begin.)

After the now un-vested employee has peeped and pulled his head back indoors, Jane moves forward a few steps. Craning slightly, she glances towards the doorway to see in which direction went that cute member of staff.
Aware that the unvested employee and his MM-mate(?) will soon round the corner to collect her, she checks her watch, and knowing they should only be a minute or two longer, steps out onto the road to see if she can see them coming. ..after which, she vanishes.
That is my take, but Mandy.Maree has also picked up on some of this -
extract >... So from the two lots of cctv footage just posted, JR is standing around waiting for someone to appear down the street opposite way of the hotels entrance/exit. Whoever she is waiting for isn't in the club. She isn't interested in what is even going on that way until MM has walked past (she seems very happy to see him) That's when she turns her attention to the door (I believe he walked in for a sec-perhaps claiming a friend was in there? No idea really but she is now facing that way waiting for him to reappear ). A guy who looks like MM peeks out the doorway and JR starts walking towards where he peeked out. Hes already disappeared again but it kinda creeps me out because he seemed to be checking she was there.
She looks at her watch not long after this I think.

What exactly happened next remains a mystery.
Like everyone, I speculate with whom Jane spent her final moments.
I am keeping an open mind, however based on my theory, of the MM it would be interesting if any possible link could be established between BRE and the vested employee.
I also consider the possibility that whoever did drive Jane away from the Claremont that night 'may not necessarily' have been the person responsible for her death (although I concede, it does seem most probable)


[emoji887]
 
I realise that calling steroid use probably sounds right out there but I've just done some more research. Adrian Bayley, serial rapist and murderer of Jill Meagher also took anabolic steroids.

They're definitely quite a common thing these days to take. At least in Melbourne anyway amongst men who have very little going for them besides sculpting their bodies. Not hard to get either.
 
Noticed a couple of things with BE that made me think he MAY have had a history of steroid abuse in his youth. Through the 90's Western Australia had the highest rate of steroid use in males over the age of 14 years old cited by NSW gov crime stats at 5.4%. Estimated the real figure is higher. I thought it may go a little way also in explaining why he appeared to simply stop raping and murdering women when we're told by most experts that serial killers don't stop. Halting drug/steroid use would normalise to keep him in check somewhat, even if as he got older problems from that use surface. Although his first marriage break up may have been a stressor, we don't know why it failed.

They're definitely quite a common thing these days to take. At least in Melbourne anyway amongst men who have very little going for them besides sculpting their bodies. Not hard to get either.
 
This post lands at random.

There is absolutely nothing to support the continued speculation about steroid use so please discontinue that line of discussion.

:tyou:
 
Noticed a couple of things with BE that made me think he MAY have had a history of steroid abuse in his youth. Through the 90's Western Australia had the highest rate of steroid use in males over the age of 14 years old cited by NSW gov crime stats at 5.4%. Estimated the real figure is higher. I thought it may go a little way also in explaining why he appeared to simply stop raping and murdering women when we're told by most experts that serial killers don't stop. Halting drug/steroid use would normalise to keep him in check somewhat, even if as he got older problems from that use surface. Although his first marriage break up may have been a stressor, we don't know why it failed.

While I understand there was a percentage of males using steroids as you stated you have to keep in mind that 94.5% of males over 14 didn't use steroids. While I cannot say definitively the BE never used steroids, there is simply nothing that anyone has ever uncovered that would suggest he did. You are basing this entire theory off of nothing more than his body weight in a few photos and the fact he is an alleged violent criminal. If you want people to take this theory seriously we need real evidence to suggest be was a steroid user, at this point I have seen nothing whatsoever to indicate this.

I am able to uncover in my research any precedent of a serial killer having been confirmed of using steroids. While I admit that steroid use may lead to a person being two times more likely to commit a violent offence there is quite a leap from violent offender to serial killer. Assuming BE is the CSK then he has a clear and documented natural progression from sexual deviant to serial killer without evidence of steroid use.

All the reports and facts in the world won't convince me he was a steroid user unless there is actual evidence to back the theory up. Rather than trying to sell your theory your time would be best spent sleuthing a link between BE and the use of steroids, then the evidence would sell itself.

Off topic:

So I had a plan to browse MAKO/files and news archives to compile a list of sex offenders and murderers from 1985 - 2016 in and around Perth with the hope of identifying similar MO's and hunting grounds as the CSK in an attempt to link to unsolved assaults/murders in the area. what a mammoth task, it is absolutely crazy the amount of sex predators operating in the area. I called quits after only about 40 minutes due to information overload.

There were that many offenders operating at the same time as CSK's known timeline (even another guy breaking into homes around Gosnells in the late 80's to commit sexual assault) so unless a direct link can be drawn IE; , vehicle, DNA, witnesses I think finding other possible victims would be almost in vain. I know WAPOL have the resources of a government at their fingertips and experienced investigators but I think even they will have a hard time on this task, but best of luck to them!
 
I hope my following input won't have me shot down in flames - please be gentle, as I have not previously given my own take on the dynamics of the CCTV outside the claremont, but having studied the CCTV - the body language - over and over, and having since read some posted opinions which lend support to my own interpretation of what I observe,
I will put my theory forward (partly as a possible explanation as to 'how/why' Jane may have naively decided to become separated from her peers.)

Aside from the blitz attack ideation, it has also been spec'd the girls felt at enough ease to go freely with whomever they had accepted a lift due to having some familiarity(?) eg taxi driver, pretend cop, a regular
I am thinking along the lines of a recognised 'claremont hotel regular'
- more specifically an employee - and that is why I asked, earlier, about entrances, exits and carparking which may have only been accessible to staff.

and I agree with artygunner :

The vested man is initially seen smoking, with his foot up on the railing, shortly after midnight. The huge mobile (or walkie) hanging off the back of his strides suggests to me that he is a member of the hotel staff who is having a smoke because 00:00 is his clock-off time.

I spec' JR had backtracked to the Claremont in hopes of hooking up with the vested employee having had earlier occasion(s) for brief exchange - he may have even said if you're still about when i finish work (a) we could go for coffee (b) i'm going to a party with a mate if you'd like to come, we could hook up? (c) i'll give you a lift (d) etc

Regardless, after he finishes smoking, Jane's attention is certainly in his direction as he begins to walk toward the camera - it's ever so subtle, but they are both aware of each other.
In fact, pause the clip, frame by frame and you can see that as he walks towards the door, just before he veers to his left - there's a distinct moment where he and Jane make direct eye contact, at which point I note a slight softening of her face and the beginning of a smile - he notices Jane, but he's aloof and his back is soon towards her while he waits at the doorway to re-enter the hotel
— when suddenly the MM comes into view —
Jane definitely does appear to recognise the MM, but I don't interpret her exaggerated laughter as having much to do with him, as much as I consider it her flirtatious last ditch effort to capture the fleeting vested employee's attention while she is still within his earshot, she wants him to hear her, to let him know that she's still there, available, vivacious, and to be taken notice of ... again too late ... he enters the building, and once inside, i spec he's in a hurry to clock off and he removes his work vest having finished for the night.
By now the MM is also somewhere out of the street cameras' range.
The now unvested employee is next seen peeping from the doorway, perhaps discreetly checking whether Jane is still there, and perhaps also checking for any sign of that mate whom I spec' he may have arranged to meet after work to go partying.
(Consider that MM may have been the vested employee's mate/lift, and that Jane's recognition was simply because she had met him previously as an associate of vested employee, and she was pleased to see MM arrive because it meant her night was about to begin.)

After the now un-vested employee has peeped and pulled his head back indoors, Jane moves forward a few steps. Craning slightly, she glances towards the doorway to see in which direction went that cute member of staff.
Aware that the unvested employee and his MM-mate(?) will soon round the corner to collect her, she checks her watch, and knowing they should only be a minute or two longer, steps out onto the road to see if she can see them coming. ..after which, she vanishes.
That is my take, but Mandy.Maree has also picked up on some of this -

What exactly happened next remains a mystery.
Like everyone, I speculate with whom Jane spent her final moments.
I am keeping an open mind, however based on my theory, of the MM it would be interesting if any possible link could be established between BRE and the vested employee.
I also consider the possibility that whoever did drive Jane away from the Claremont that night 'may not necessarily' have been the person responsible for her death (although I concede, it does seem most probable)

[emoji887]

I like your theory, I also don't favour the peeping door guy as the MM. If JR left with anyone else I'm sure he'd have come forward to be eliminated. AFAIK, MM is the only unidentified person in the clips shown.
 
Toomanytoocountmu and video posters


I'm not sure if I see what others do in the videos and the screen shots. The pixelated screen shots of BRE magnified, looks like a duck to my eye. The person who posted the images of BRE in the shed and his strange gait, I thought was quite clever to identify that fact and interesting. The pick up of BRE at Crocs was also excellent. Two really good pieces of information that builds a picture of BRE. Possibly the only two facts posted in the last week and a half that stood out from the rest.

If you place someone who is a known suspect into a scenario like the video, I think there is a potential to start to see elements that aren't really there. Especially if you are looking at it so closely frame by frame, or now pixel by pixel.
 
Now that he's been caught and his face is out there, I'm really surprised we haven't heard of more women coming forward The police must be working him hard to find out what he did with Sarah Spiers but he's not giving them anything it seems, even Adrian Bayley was forthcoming with information. I think BE has a bit wider criminal experience in him and with the police than it appears, he's holding out until he sees the brief and knows exactly what they've got. He'll either plead not guilty and take his chances on the evidence or cut a deal so he eventually gets parole, that deal will have to be the recovery of Sarah Spiers ... I think.
I'm hoping he is giving information..unfortunately its the only control/power he really has left at the moment..dont see him giving it up easily when there isn't a reward or benefit for him.
Think only hope is if his SD starts doubting him and asks him to tell them .
Could be surprised though. Hope so

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I wonder if he bit any of his victims like Ted Bundy did? I'm sure anything of this kind would have been held back from the public for a number of reasons.

Quite possible. My ex-boss the cruel paedophile used to bare his teeth at me and shake in anger. And I've just re-watched (had seen it when it was first shown on tv) the Australian Story "Before you leap" with Estelle Blackburn (this was uploaded recently by someone on here, sorry can't remember who, but thank you) she thought her ex partner was the CSK. (Had good reasons to think this, just shockingly violent man). His rage, when he thought he had been spurned, was just like Ted Bundy. He tried to bite her nose off in a public place in front of dozens of witness. She was covered in blood, so he almost succeeded by the sounds of things! So it would seem the biting aspect with these super violent rapists/murderers is more common than we might expect.
 
Love the theory BReVeTTe!
Definitely possible. I'll try and screenshot him

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