Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #11

[SherlockSleuth]

Just with the whole 'wild theories' thing, my take on it is that it's OK to put an idea out there, but if there's little or no support for it, it's probably not right to keep banging on about it.

 

[isisaw]

I have him pegged as a cross dresser actually, wearing the womens lingerie he steals off clotheslines.

<modsnip>

However, I am certainly interested in any crimes of that nature (indecent exposure, burglary, clothing theft) as I think there are more links to be made in those early years pre the Claremont murders. I believe WAPOL do too (as per the latest front page article from The Post newspaper). Unfortunately, I think those links were not necessarily reported and there may not be any published information that the public are privy too (i.e. old newspaper articles), however, I'm going to have a good dig around the archives tonight.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Do you mean this one Always Curious? I think it's a white 4wd ute with spotties.

This one might be easier to make out

 

[apoptosisfutz]

<modsnip>

However, I am certainly interested in any crimes of that nature (indecent exposure, burglary, clothing theft) as I think there are more links to be made in those early years pre the Claremont murders. I believe WAPOL do too (as per the latest front page article from The Post newspaper). Unfortunately, I think those links were not necessarily reported and there may not be any published information that the public are privy too (i.e. old newspaper articles), however, I'm going to have a good dig around the archives tonight.

I and others have said it a few times in this forum, that the State Library has local papers on file from all over WA. It is a lot of leg work but if you are prepared to look there is a lot of info there.... Happy hunting!

 

[meticulously]

The two lights are it ?

.

 

[Mazfrank]

You asked Mazfranc "what does gender have to do with it". You asked her in a previous quote how did she know where the exits were and was it because her" Girlfriend" worked there. I think Mazfranc assumed you thought she was a male and was confirming that she was a girl because you brought up genders in the first place.

Thanks, I just offered information on the Conti/Claremont bar. There's was and is a back entrance. I've been drilled about it and been provided with links to a drawing that is not accurate. In my defence, and for all it's worth, maybe nothing, there is, was and always has been a back entrance to the venue. In my days working in bands - as I've said, you loaded from the back, no one asked what you were doing... if you were there doing something, it was a given you were suppose to be there. Chefs, staff, bands and sometimes patrons made their way out the back.... we all assumed we were there for a reason..... no one checked us... no one asked.. might be irrelevant, but after being drilled about it, I just wanted to reiterate... people had access from the back door.



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[SherlockSleuth]

Personally i have no strong inkling to whether he was or not. And it would only be of relevance if his sexual peccadilloes related to the case (as in, if clothing or underwear were worn during or linked to the murders.)

Agree with both points. I think the reason 'this one' hasn't quite gone away is that it was reported that LWs brother was asked by police something such as 'have you ever seen LW dressed as a woman?' If this is true, then I imagine there *might* have been some kind of cross dressing element to the crime. *Maybe*. I just don't know why they'd have asked that otherwise, but then I'm not a homicide detective.

I suppose also that since the dropped kimono was linked to BRE, this potential element has even more momentum.

 

[koston]

I live in Southern River(1km away from Gay St) and if I were to dispose of a body it would be around Forrestdale lake as its only 3 streets away(albeit semi long streets) with minimal housing in between. If I chose to do it in the hills, it would be up past Lumen Christi high then up Mills Road to the hills. Back then, the tracks off Mills road werent blocked off with huge boulders and theres a few lookouts that were very popular with local Gosnells(gozzy) people. I know this because my brothers are in their late 30s and mid 40s and it was very popular. There was numerous tracks to choose from.

Pipidinny road was a road used by fisherman and he was a fisherman with his father. Also Woolcott road was used as a road for people who were going fishing down near Mandurah if you were heading from that area(Huntingdale, Gosnells etc etc) as you could easily get to Mandurah that way because the freeway wasn't there.

I also doubt he would've dumped her locally as there was heaps of horse trails around Huntingdale and Southern River.

My theory is that he knew all of the girls, used this trust to lure the girls into his car. He may have knew the girls through the West Coast Eagles games. I would like to know if all of the girls were West Coast Eagles fans, Jane Rimmer was. A lot of the patrons in Claremont wouldve been West Coast eagles fans as the Dockers only came in 1995. He may have been waiting in the clubs/pubs for girls to leaving on their own and went from there. Possibly standing near the main exit as they left.

We can only wait and see I guess

SS Disposal Site

Re: Sarah Spiers body location

Just my opinion, of course but I doubt he’d have deposited her body close to where he lived.

He’s intelligent and organized (according to workmates who described him as meticulous and pedantic and also the clear and orderly way in which he has written the Kewdale LAC reports). Many projects for improving the Kewdale LAC seemed to have occurred during the time of his office so it seems he knew how to ‘get things done’. He’s good at planning and organizing.

For these reasons I think he would never have dropped a body close to his home and he would have planned and scouted how and where he would have deposited Sarah’s body.

I think the easiest way of disposing of a body, if it’s true he still resided in Huntingdale in 1996 would be to head up into the hills via Welshpool Rd, then turn either left or right at the top of the hill and go into the bush districts of Kalamunda, Pickering Brook, Carmel and Karragullen.
If his softball matches (still to be confirmed but I’ve no reason to doubt Chicaletta’s report that her hubby played softball with BRE from 1993-1998) took him into the hills then he may have been aware of access roads to areas of deep bush.

Did he have relatives who lived up in the hills, visits to whom would have also made him aware of and familiar with the area?

Anyway, it’s all just my opinion, as usual. I just doubt he’d have dumped SS close to his home, as others have surmised.

Boat dumping theory is also possible but I think that he’d want to get rid of the body as quickly, smoothly and as unnoticeably as possible.
Hitching up a boat can be noisy and towing a boat at night would attract more attention than just going along in an ordinary car.

So, it’s a pre-scouted bush-disposal in the hills suburbs about thirty or forty minutes from Huntingdale, that he would have used, in my opinion.

 

[meticulously]

Clothing found not connected ?

Source #papertrail

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Zoomed in

.

 

[isisaw]

Clothing found not connected ?

Source #papertrail

.

Interesting . . .

I have been to the JR dump site and considering it's isolation, I can imagine the surrounding land may well have been used for illegal dumping even in the 1990's, which may account for the other clothing found. From what I saw, it certainly seems that the numerous accessible sandy bush tracks in the area are still used for such purposes.

On that note, I find it interesting that there didn't seem to be much of an attempt made to conceal JR's body in the context that there are numerous other sites in that area that are far more secluded if you really wanted to conceal a body. This suggests the actual dumping of JR was probably done with some swiftness and that particular site was chosen due to its ability to be accessible from the vehicle/road, removing the need to handle or manually move the body beyond what was necessary.

I have not visited the CG dump site but it appears that more of a concerted effort was made to move the body (? manually) further away from the access road and at least a crude attempt was made at concealing it with twigs and foliage.

 

[TheSecondLaw]

I live in Southern River(1km away from Gay St) and if I were to dispose of a body it would be around Forrestdale lake as its only 3 streets away(albeit semi long streets) with minimal housing in between. If I chose to do it in the hills, it would be up past Lumen Christi high then up Mills Road to the hills. Back then, the tracks off Mills road werent blocked off with huge boulders and theres a few lookouts that were very popular with local Gosnells(gozzy) people. I know this because my brothers are in their late 30s and mid 40s and it was very popular. There was numerous tracks to choose from.

Pipidinny road was a road used by fisherman and he was a fisherman with his father. Also Woolcott road was used as a road for people who were going fishing down near Mandurah if you were heading from that area(Huntingdale, Gosnells etc etc) as you could easily get to Mandurah that way because the freeway wasn't there.

I also doubt he would've dumped her locally as there was heaps of horse trails around Huntingdale and Southern River.

My theory is that he knew all of the girls, used this trust to lure the girls into his car. He may have knew the girls through the West Coast Eagles games. I would like to know if all of the girls were West Coast Eagles fans, Jane Rimmer was. A lot of the patrons in Claremont wouldve been West Coast eagles fans as the Dockers only came in 1995. He may have been waiting in the clubs/pubs for girls to leaving on their own and went from there. Possibly standing near the main exit as they left.

We can only wait and see I guess

Speaking of rat runs from Perth to Mandurah, one that my family used to like taking in the 90's, once travelled south from Nicholson Road was from Thomas Road onto King Rd -> Mundijong Rd -> Baldivis Rd -> Kerosene Lane then onto Mandurah Road.

The possibility of another path to Mandurah being a dumping ground is an interesting theory, though the more I think about it the less likely it seems. In that region, of what hasn't yet been developed is mostly rural properties that would surely have fields and firebreaks maintained on a regular basis.

IMO, SS was placed in a more secluded / unfrequented crown land / national park, or private property with plenty of dense bush. Wherever the case, still very close to a road accessible by a 2WD, assuming wherever she was taken wasn't in a 4WD.

Also, I agree with isisaw that the locations were chosen on a preferable balance of ease of access vs just the right amount of seclusion. That is to say more, secluded places exist but would take more time to access.

 

[rhythymz]

Found this rhythymz, perhaps not BRE for this poor girl?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nat...t/news-story/eef7e469cc93f9e534cf39e35ed18861

No one has been charged, let alone found guilty.

The article says there is a gypsy joker connection and that it was a hit.

Well, if it was a hit then its likely they contracted someone in from another state to do it. That then starts me theorising about that person being brought in from WA? And then, seeing that the gypsy joker compound in Perth is at 10 Lower Park Road, Maddington - just next to Huntingdale - I ponder whether it would have to be a fully patched member or could it be a less well known, yet reliable, associate in the local area to do the job. If that person was a mad West Coast Eagles fan then all the better...a plausible reason to go to Adelaide. A couple of days leave from work, a quick drive across the Nullabor in a white station wagon, hit Friday afternoon, footy at night, drive the 2700 km back to Perth Sat and Sun, back in the office on Monday!!

It sounds a bit crazy but I wouldn't dismiss it immediately.

 

[koston]

Good post TheSecondLaw. That was the word i was looking for...rat run. I remember that route also that you mentioned. I think the bodies were dumped in familiar locations to the killer. I'll do some digging around and see what route you may have taken from Freeway to Huntingdale and possibly see if theres any remote areas of bushland.

About the boat theory, one would have to confirm if the Telstra vehicle or the vehicle that the killer may have used had a TOW BALL. No tow ball no boat and one would assume it would be too hard to swap vehicles. It would mean more potential evidence.

 

[isisaw]

FYI: I have a contact who is a relative of the lad who discovered CG's body. With some hesitation, I can potentially find out more information regarding the specifics of the CG site at the time of discovery. However, I'm not sure how helpful that would be in the grand scheme of things beyond what is already public knowledge other than theorising over the psychology behind the choice of dump site.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the areas being chosen due to a previous familiarity with the area/access routes from his work life and/or knowledge of fishing spots or accessible illegal dumping spots. These are the three most logical explanations, particularly in relation to Pipidinny Road (which I am currently virtually revisiting on street view - what a wonderful thing technology is).

It really is such a desolate and lonely place. Completely devoid of infrastructure for the most part (although I note there is an image of what appears to be technicians of some description with a utility working at some kind of structure - possibly related to future land releases). One would have to be quite callous to dump a body in such a manner in such a location. It really is very indicative of a person completely removed of empathy and with nil emotional attachment to the victim or the crime itself.

 

[CP345]

No one has been charged, let alone found guilty.

The article says there is a gypsy joker connection and that it was a hit.

Well, if it was a hit then its likely they contracted someone in from another state to do it. That then starts me theorising about that person being brought in from WA? And then, seeing that the gypsy joker compound in Perth is at 10 Lower Park Road, Maddington - just next to Huntingdale - I ponder whether it would have to be a fully patched member or could it be a less well known, yet reliable, associate in the local area to do the job. If that person was a mad West Coast Eagles fan then all the better...a plausible reason to go to Adelaide. A couple of days leave from work, a quick drive across the Nullabor in a white station wagon, hit that afternoon, footy at night, drive the 2700 km back to Perth Sat and Sun, back in the office on Monday!!

It sounds a bit crazy but I wouldn't dismiss it immediately.

So the bikies, knew that BE was a cold blooded killer and WCE fan because he lived in a nearby suburb to their club house. They waited until the eagles were in Adelaide and paid BE to take the trip east and perform a hit on their behalf knowing that even if he did get caught they'd link his other killings to sporting events and fireworks and they'd not be linked. The diabolical mongrels!

You're right it does sound crazy.

 

[koston]

Did i mention you could also go fishing at Forrestdale Lake....

Many possibilities and many theories but I guess you can't help it until more information comes to light from the trial...

 

[DingDing7]

CSK SAID, "I am of the theory that she was more of an opportunistic attack as opposed to pre meditated, I'm sure the CSK planned on raping but I don't think murder was his initial intention, I think he panicked a little and made sure to conceal her more than he did his other victims".......and I am inclined to completely agree
For this reason I think it likely that the took SS in the general area of where she was headed (Wellington Street, Mosman Park) and deviated nearby - down by the river perhaps to "do his deed" - then dumped her nearby - like in a drain, near the water - down the point there. If he had placed her in a drain - or a drain near a building site - I think this could account for her having not been found.

 

[DingDing7]

Driving home from work. This photo was from moments ago. Felt like a right stalker but that's my contribution anyway... p> Looks empty

 

[DingDing7]

I have been wondering....when BE was arrested, neighbours heard a woman scream.... we know that SD turned up after he was arrested and in this forum someone posted that police spoke to CGE while she was shopping and allegedly said, "What, has he killed someone?". IF that later post is correct...who was at the house with BE when he was arrested? Did he scream like a girl? (No offence intended...)

It was the TRG who screamed!! They always do.

 

[DingDing7]

Anyone wanna visit Hakea & have a chat. Might be an idea to ring first to see if he is accepting non family visitors. Otherwise it is a long trip. Maybe Mandurah rellies have come up to Perth & stayed somewhere & organised the skip bin.Where is Bart?

PerthSleuth86 - I think that is a very bad idea that could seriously compromise and undermine justice. Please don't!! Details will come out - everyone will need patience. I'm unsure of his prison conditions but I would say tis likely that he may be isolated away from mainstream prisoners cos of his high profile. He also may not be allocated many visiting rights. He might be spending hours doing the 'prison walk' just now.