Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[Credulious]

What's interesting about that article is that it doesn't specify DNA as a link between KK and CG. I'm sure I read others that did, but that may have been their interpretation.
So yes, could be looking at two distinct types of forensic evidence: DNA from CG and another forensic link between CG and KK. This could explain why they had DNA to test at the beginning but couldn't link KK at that stage, and why they only linked CG and KK after discovering something else on CG's body.
Given how controlled and careful the CSK has been, it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't leave much of anything on KK or any of the other victims. Maybe there wasn't clear DNA on KK to begin with.
Thanks for that information.

I think they had only a partial match or basic description from Ciaras DNA in the beginning.

While in the beginning officers felt there was a connection, DNA technology got better until they reached familial DNA that pulled a winner.

Given that there is DNA for both CG and Karra cases, have DNA and the same style cord. Could be the same length of cord, hence the officers pursuing the clothes line origin.

Having the residence they were stolen from would prove fruitful IMO.

Having the same cord with chemicals on it, and DNA on both cases would make it hard to unwind IMO. Pardon the pun.

 

[Credulious]

With regards to processing DNA – back in the 1990s I was on jury duty – a rape within Perth’s outer southern suburbs. A pubic hair was located within the victim, however they weren’t able to establish who the hair belonged to (victim or perp.), because it was covered in vaginal fluid. They were not able to simply wash the hair.

The prosecution explained that they’d located the hair but weren’t able to establish who it belonged to – instead they described to the jury what it looked like.

What if a victim of rape had sexual relations beforehand, nowadays they’d probably be able to separate the DNA. But I don’t think they couldn’t separate it back in the 1990s.

Any replies to this post – mature and positive comments only - please!

Thats a curly one IMHO

 

[lampformypath]

From what I understand about trauma, PTSD triggers can include a subconscious or even unconscious reaction to smell. So even beyond the obvious (e.g. a particular cologne or food smell) a person's particular pheromone or body odour might be recalled.

When my grandma died I was also told that the last sense to go is smell so even when she was practically unconscious we were encouraged to believe she would recognise us in the room from our scent. Moreover, many years later (about ten) I was passing the house she lived in for 30 years and saw the new owner out the front and asked if I could go in. Immediately upon entering I could still smell her.

Not sure they do IDs from smell because it would be totally unreliable, but if she was near the CSK she might have a reaction to his scent or even consciously recognise it


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Oh WOW Akai that's incredible about your grandma and the lingering memory of her all those years later! Yes, I am well aware of the power of the sense of smell (olfactory system) and it's links to memory, recalling emotions, healing, etc. etc. Our daughter studied and qualified as a Clinical Aromatherapist (able to work in hospitals etc.) and I can remember when she was training we had many discussions about various essential oils and their benefits/properties, absolutely fascinating. I think this is a whole area of suspect identification that who knows may even become mainstream one day. (And thanks Petedavo for your excellent reminder about Mr Stinky, le pew!) I think women particularly have highly tuned olfactory senses. I remember meeting a French woman once who's job it was to detect tiny differences in essential oil combinations in order to perfect new perfumes (very highly paid job!). Imagine perhaps in the future police taking swabs of suspects on some sort of special cloth (and this swab yielding a unique olfactory code) and having victims smell them in some sort of contained device? Not so far fetched. I am not suggesting this would be a major method for ruling suspects in or out, just as another tool.

 

[Credulious]

When vision is impaired, by hood or simply because it's very dark and adrenaline is surging other senses are heightened.

Raymond Edmunds (Mr Stinky) serial rapist and killer was known for having a distinctive smell. When he was eventually caught, it was found he worked a dairy farm.

I do believe people employed in these positions in the past, could wash but the smell had impregnated. This was often a remark from people like Kenny (Shane Jacobson).

eg: The smell in here would outlast religion.

 

[Credulious]

The forensic link of both DNA and clothes line means done for one going for the other.

A solid link from Kimono, and clothesline connection could mean another solid link, having a forensic attached.

The crimes will be connected. More so if Floreat mans clothes line had silk screened womens sporting clothing hanging on the clothes line which ties the whole crime together.

Find the clothes line. If it is the Kimono source, the whole crime is bound together. Forget the DNA. Forensic links will make it hard to dismiss both sources.

 

[Credulious]

So what other forensic links did they get on the swab of the van in Karrakatta?

What other chemical DNA would signal the same predator?

The Karra victim ran naked to the hospital.

Potential multi source evidence based connections to the crimes.

 

[lampformypath]

Hi lampformypath - Ted Bundy would emit an odour when he got angry.


http://arnesencasestudy.freetzi.com/Excerpt.pdf


“His eyes would turn black. Or he would suddenly develop a mark on his cheek. Other times he would emit an odor, one more animal than human. From the time Ted was a three year-old scaring his aunt with knives, to later when teachers, friends and relatives began to witness his sudden anger, there was a physical metamorphosis that came over him”.
MOO

Oh Annalise, I've read and viewed a lot of stuff about Ted Bundy (unfortunately). I didn't remember the bit about the smell. How demonic does this man sound? The black eyes, the non human smell, etc. Lord save us!

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

On the surface, Victorias murder was really about protecting Mr Big heroin

His background views on his life as a prisoner at Fremantle Prison, views on homosexuality, capital punishment. Tilbury was convicted in 1971 for the murder of Lynette Robeson and again in 1989 for the murder of Vanessa Devlin.
https://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/collection/data/762912744

Victoria or Vanessa?

 

[ESH]

Oh Annalise, I've read and viewed a lot of stuff about Ted Bundy (unfortunately). I didn't remember the bit about the smell. How demonic does this man sound? The black eyes, the non human smell, etc. Lord save us!

I have seen this happen. My Ex husband's eyes would turn black when he was angry..... One of the reasons he quickly became an Ex!

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[88mph]

So what other forensic links did they get on the swab of the van in Karrakatta?

What other chemical DNA would signal the same predator?

The Karra victim ran naked to the hospital.

Potential multi source evidence based connections to the crimes.

Are we assuming that the van was located? Given we've heard nothing, I assume they have it or confirmed it was destroyed.

 

[lampformypath]

I have seen this happen. My Ex husband's eyes would turn black when he was angry..... One of the reasons he quickly became an Ex!

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Glad you escaped ESH and are safe now, PEACE BE WITH YOU ALWAYS! I have heard of this so often with very violent people, most of whom turn into criminals, the black eyes. I also had the shaking with anger and baring of teeth from a violent boss. He's in jail now for 10 years, yes sometimes there is justice on this earth!

 

[Canning Vale]

An interesting conversation with a former prison guard, who worked at one of the WA prisons. In not so many words she advised it being hopeless to think certain prisoners could be rehabilitated. She also mentioned there were two male prisoners who had a sense of evil about them. Not that there was an odour but more a presence of evil.

 

[no name]

So what other forensic links did they get on the swab of the van in Karrakatta?

Given that there is DNA for both CG and Karra cases, have DNA and the same style cord. Could be the same length of cord, hence the officers pursuing the clothes line origin.
Having the same cord with chemicals on it, and DNA on both cases

Speculation or fact here? Ive seen nothing that would enable these comments to be stated as fact.

I have asked this previously without response. Does anyone know the month the JR fibres were supposedly located?
I find it interesting the police were questioning Lee Partridge about the screen printing process in 2011, the same year the JR fibres were rediscovered.

 

[TheSecondLaw]

Very interesting. Given blue and green can often be mixed up particularly at night, it may be indeed be the same car.

Done it before myself.

There are particular shades of aqua / teal that can be regarded either more blue or green depending on the viewer. Dim lighting conditions are indeed a factor too. I'm not an optometrist but I believe some forms of colour blindness are dependant on whether the rods or cones in the retina are playing the dominant role based on lighting conditions i.e. colour determination more difficult for some individuals in dimmer settings

 

[MissUnderstood]

The forensic link of both DNA and clothes line means done for one going for the other.

A solid link from Kimono, and clothesline connection could mean another solid link, having a forensic attached.

The crimes will be connected. More so if Floreat mans clothes line had silk screened womens sporting clothing hanging on the clothes line which ties the whole crime together.

Find the clothes line. If it is the Kimono source, the whole crime is bound together. Forget the DNA. Forensic links will make it hard to dismiss both sources.

The famous kimono was linked to unrelated crimes at one point wasn’t it?


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[lampformypath]

An interesting conversation with a former prison guard, who worked at one of the WA prisons. In not so many words she advised it being hopeless to think certain prisoners could be rehabilitated. She also mentioned there were two male prisoners who had a sense of evil about them. Not that there was an odour but more a presence of evil.

Yes Canning Vale, "a presence of evil". We have a dear friend who was very prominent many years ago in the police force. He told us a few tales of this "demonic like" aura from individuals he had dealings with in interviews/arrests, etc. One story brought the hairs up on our necks as he told my husband and myself about it at a dinner party. One was an indigenous "medicine man", as he called him, who was taken into custody by our mate in a tiny and remote outback jail. The indigenous man gave off a very powerful "energy" and warned our friend that he would be sorry if he didn't let him go (minor offence, drunk and disorderly I think). The man said he had cursed the police station and things would start to happen very soon. Within a day a fellow officer was almost killed in a freak car accident out in the middle of nowhere, part of the station caught fire whilst our friend was there (remember this was very remote, nobody within cooee as they say), our friend started to feel sicker and sicker, couldn't sleep, weird dreams, on and on. Eventually our friend quietly let the bloke go (do you blame him?). When he came to let the bloke out he was curled up in the darkest corner of the cell, his eyes were the only thing our friend could see, he said they were totally black and he was laughing very loudly (this is all before our friend had said a thing about letting him out!) Our friend has covered many cases that "give you the willies" as he'd call it. Some that involved victims being found partially burnt surrounded by candles and other such occult stuff, one on a makeshift tree "altar". As Shakespeare once so wisely said. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy (science)." In other words, Hori old mate, there's some pretty weird s**t out there!!

 

[Pandit]

Do you have a link to state the van from 1995 was actually located?

Given the victim was hooded, it may even be the Camry wagon she was bundled into which as far as we know hasn't been found yet.

So what other forensic links did they get on the swab of the van in Karrakatta?

What other chemical DNA would signal the same predator?

The Karra victim ran naked to the hospital.

Potential multi source evidence based connections to the crimes.

 

[Credulious]

Victoria or Vanessa?

Choose or pick one either or. It appears her real name was Victoria, alias Vanessa

 

[Credulious]

Do you have a link to state the van from 1995 was actually located?

Given the victim was hooded, it may even be the Camry wagon she was bundled into which as far as we know hasn't been found yet.

From what I have read, it was referred to as a 'commercial' vehicle according Karra girl in Karrakatta sexual assault.

 

[Credulious]

The famous kimono was linked to unrelated crimes at one point wasn’t it?

At this point it appears police are trying to connect the kimono to the clothes line used in the crimes. Being mindful the clothes line has the ink from silk screen printing on it.

If it is connected to the clothes line, say belonged to floreat mans wife who lived in Huntingdale clothes line theft, that would mean another connection.

So while there is DNA connection, forensic links to all the crimes would mean multiple layers of connection across the crimes.

If that is the case, disconnecting DNA from the crime would contradict the forensic links with the crimes. Visa versa

Defense has to dismiss both connections with the crimes. Forensic links and DNA links.