Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[Spooks-R-Us]

I presume being as it's a computer it would be given a specific task so the Data bank operator keys in the equivalent of

"Please find any familial matches for this DNA profile."

There were DNA matches between CG, KK and HD. They just needed 1 profile to look for a familial match. The Kimono was the earliest evidence once they had the name connected to the familial match (and it may not have been Edwards) the family tree would show who of the family had been connected to the HD area. They would soon find out through Drivers Licences, Tax Dept, Rates, Banks, Telephone accounts where they were now.

IMO - logic says when u first put an unknown DNA sample in a database - you don't specify "find a family member with similar DNA".

I would think the 1st search criteria specifies 'find any matches to this sample'.

If you put unknown sample into database , the report will probably say:
A) 100% match, with or without a name/identity
B) 1 or more x% matches with family members or relatives
C) no match available
D) combo of A+B


Edit: not all samples on database will be identified


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[janwa]

IMO - logic says when u first put an unknown DNA sample in a database - you don't specify "find a family member with similar DNA".

I would think the 1st search criteria specifies 'find any matches to this sample'.

If you put unknown sample into database , the report will probably say:
A) 100% match, with or without a name/identity
B) 1 or more x% matches with family members or relatives
C) no match available
D) combo of A+B............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

I was being flippant I don't know what the command is, you have to enter a DNA profile and it then searches for familial matches. As a person has to be a convicted criminal to be on it, in most cases you probably get 0, 1 or 2 unless you are part of an inter generational crime family.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

I was being flippant I don't know what the command is, you have to enter a DNA profile and it then searches for familial matches. As a person has to be a convicted criminal to be on it, in most cases you probably get 0, 1 or 2 unless you are part of an inter generational crime family.

Two main purposes of DNA database.
Other than aiding identification of criminals, the database allows linking of crimes.

When the HD sample put into database - the report showed LINKED crimes and NOT linked family members or relatives.

So either WAPOL had BRE pegged soon after HD sample linked w KK , CG, and a matched familial profile ,and they 'waited' a year to arrest to arrest the accused.

Or there was no familial profile on database that matched

So they went back to the file and solved case w regular police work and updated/improved investigation methods


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[janwa]

Two main purposes of DNA database.
Other than aiding identification of criminals, the database allows linking of crimes.
When the HD sample put into database - the report showed LINKED crimes and NOT linked family members or relatives.
So either WAPOL had BRE pegged soon after HD sample linked w KK , CG, and a matched familial profile ,and they 'waited' a year to arrest to arrest the accused.
Or there was no familial profile on database that matched
So they went back to the file and solved case w regular police work and updated/improved investigation methods
..........................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

Spooks it is nothing to do with linking crimes it is to do with linking family members
[h=4]This is from https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi506
Familial searching[/h]A DNA profile can demonstrate genetic relationships when the profiles are matched on the basis of the number of STR markers that are shared. For example, a parent would be expected to share half of their STR markers with their child, because half of a child’s genetic code is received from each parent. This is the basis of familial searching—a new application of DNA profiling that is increasingly being used in criminal investigations around the world (McCarthy 2011).
Familial searching is used in criminal investigations where DNA evidence is found at a crime scene and a match cannot be established with any of the DNA profiles held on the databases available to police. While complete DNA profile matches may not be found on the database, these searches may identify partial matches. These partial matches may indicate the DNA profiles of genetic relatives in the database. Where a partial match is identified, this can provide new investigative leads and a greater chance of identifying suspects (Greely et al. 2006). The English case R v Harman provides an example of how familial searching is able to provide police with additional options where they are not otherwise able to progress with an investigation (Table 2).

This is from http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/familial-dna-searches.html
What Is a Familial DNA Search?
A familial DNA search is a search by law enforcement in DNA databases for genetic information indicating a relative of a person they seek to identify. When a search for an exact match to a DNA sample comes up fruitless, a familial DNA search may bring back a partial match, indicating a sibling, child, parent or other blood relative. For example, DNA from a crime scene might not match any DNA in state or federal databases, but if the person's son had been recently incarcerated and thus his information entered into a state DNA database, a familial DNA search could lead police to the son, and ultimately to their suspect.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Spooks it is nothing to do with linking crimes it is to do with linking family members
This is from https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi506
Familial searching

A DNA profile can demonstrate genetic relationships when the profiles are matched on the basis of the number of STR markers that are shared. For example, a parent would be expected to share half of their STR markers with their child, because half of a child’s genetic code is received from each parent. This is the basis of familial searching—a new application of DNA profiling that is increasingly being used in criminal investigations around the world (McCarthy 2011).
Familial searching is used in criminal investigations where DNA evidence is found at a crime scene and a match cannot be established with any of the DNA profiles held on the databases available to police. While complete DNA profile matches may not be found on the database, these searches may identify partial matches. These partial matches may indicate the DNA profiles of genetic relatives in the database. Where a partial match is identified, this can provide new investigative leads and a greater chance of identifying suspects (Greely et al. 2006). The English case R v Harman provides an example of how familial searching is able to provide police with additional options where they are not otherwise able to progress with an investigation (Table 2).

This is from http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/familial-dna-searches.html
What Is a Familial DNA Search?
A familial DNA search is a search by law enforcement in DNA databases for genetic information indicating a relative of a person they seek to identify. When a search for an exact match to a DNA sample comes up fruitless, a familial DNA search may bring back a partial match, indicating a sibling, child, parent or other blood relative. For example, DNA from a crime scene might not match any DNA in state or federal databases, but if the person's son had been recently incarcerated and thus his information entered into a state DNA database, a familial DNA search could lead police to the son, and ultimately to their suspect.

Ummmm that's what I said in my previous post

Look up .
I said option B ) an x% match to a family member or relative

Thanks for the info and links , but I TOTALLY understand that familial DNA is a partial match

AND yes it's definitely about linking crimes - otherwise you are saying DNA links between KK, HD and CD are 'nothing' (your words)
............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

IMO - logic says when u first put an unknown DNA sample in a database - you don't specify "find a family member with similar DNA".

I would think the 1st search criteria specifies 'find any matches to this sample'.

If you put unknown sample into database , the report will probably say:
A) 100% match, with or without a name/identity
B) 1 or more x% matches with family members or relatives
C) no match available
D) combo of A+B


Edit: not all samples on database will be identified


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

This one Jan


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

I think I need to clarify what I'm referring to:

The entire DNA database helps link crimes AND identify criminals AND allow identification of criminals through familial partial matches.

A Familial DNA search (by itself) links criminals who are related genetically , allowing unknown sample to be associated with known or unknown offenders, providing a path to hopefully identification and arrest .


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[janwa]

Ummmm that's what I said in my previous post

Look up .
I said option B ) an x% match to a family member or relative
Thanks for the info and links , but I understand that familial DNA is a partial match
AND yes it's definitely about linking crimes - otherwise you are saying DNA links between KK, HD and CD are 'nothing' (your words)
............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

The aim was to put a name to an unknown perpetrator, the police already knew the crimes were linked but without the name the cases could have stagnated for another 20 yrs.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Essentially what I've been saying is:

3 DNA samples matched and linked 3 of the 5 total alleged CSK crimes.

If HD sample matched KK and CG.

And KK matched CG

And they had CG sample years ago .

Then why did media (and therefore WAPOL) only mention Familial DNA searches when kimono link discovered?

Surely they searched for familial matches immediately when CG DNA sample returned from U.K.

And if CG LCN sample not 'meaty' enough to compare on database, then surely they searched for familial matches with KK sample.

I'm NOT saying they didn't use familial DNA searches

I'm saying hopefully they did familial DNA searches the minute they had ANY DNA profile from any alleged CSK crimes.


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

The aim was to put a name to an unknown perpetrator, the police already knew the crimes were linked but without the name the cases could have stagnated for another 20 yrs.

YES I UNDERSTAND!

Familial link could only be made at time the KIMONO DNA retested if the family member offended and was tested around time kimono was retested.

Otherwise - if the family member was already on the criminal DNA database, ie offended and DNA tested prior kimono retesing - THEN the 2 previous samples from CG and KK would have issued the SAME familial match.

its a matter of timing

EDIT:
....ipso facto......either the family relative effed up in the last couple years and was 'a bad boy' therefore providing the ultimate link (and some might say betrayal) towards possibly solving the biggest cold case in WA legal history.

Or there was NO familial link made, and WAPOL went back to the file ( as reported in media) with 'new eyes' and 20 more years of investigative experience.

 

[janwa]

Essentially what I've been saying is:
3 DNA samples matched and linked 3 of the 5 total alleged CSK crimes.
If HD sample matched KK and CG.
And KK matched CG
And they had CG sample years ago .
Then why did media (and therefore WAPOL) only mention Familial DNA searches when kimono link discovered?
Surely they searched for familial matches immediately when CG DNA sample returned from U.K.
And if CG LCN sample not 'meaty' enough to compare on database, then surely they searched for familial matches with KK sample.
I'm NOT saying they didn't use familial DNA searches
I'm saying hopefully they did familial DNA searches the minute they had ANY DNA profile from any alleged CSK crimes.
............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

Yes hopefully they did search but it's a question of when did the Familial match do his dastardly deeds and get convicted and put on the DNA Data base.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

YES I UNDERSTAND!

Familial link could only be made at time the KIMONO DNA retested if the family member offended and was tested around time kimono was retested.

Otherwise - if the family member was already on the criminal DNA database, ie offended and DNA tested prior kimono retesing - THEN the 2 previous samples from CG and KK would have issued the SAME familial match.

its a matter of timing

EDIT:
....ipso facto......either the family relative effed up in the last couple years and was 'a bad boy' therefore providing the ultimate link (and some might say betrayal) towards possibly solving the biggest cold case in WA legal history.

Or there was NO familial link made, and WAPOL went back to the file ( as reported in media) with 'new eyes' and 20 more years of investigative experience.

However since the famous FB comment: "maybe you are on a no-ride list. must have been a bad boy when you were younger!"
AND the other famous FB comment: "not as bad as you",
an over keen, sleep deprived sleuth may surmise that any alleged familial DNA samples were already on database when a certain someone was younger.
i.e. the certain someone not having offended in the last 2 years.

Therefore familial database searches with either CG or KK samples would have PINGED the same alleged familial match......MANY YEARS BEFORE

 

[Eaglette]

Reminder: 28 Jan 2016 - 12 months before BRE arrest - things were hotting up "the heat was on" on the DNA factors ......

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20160128/282394103470719

"As well as keeping his nose clean he also had the worry to what his family members were up to"

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Reminder: 28 Jan 2016 - 12 months before BRE arrest - things were hotting up "the heat was on" on the DNA factors ......

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20160128/282394103470719

"As well as keeping his nose clean he also had the worry to what his family members were up to"

Excellent sleuthing Eaglette!
You are flying!


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Yes hopefully they did search but it's a question of when did the Familial match do his dastardly deeds and get convicted and put on the DNA Data base.

Exactly!
And was there a relative on the database at all?


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Reminder: 28 Jan 2016 - 12 months before BRE arrest - things were hotting up "the heat was on" on the DNA factors ......

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20160128/282394103470719

"As well as keeping his nose clean he also had the worry to what his family members were up to"

I'm wondering if this article was a subliminal message to unhinge the alleged CSK?
In Jan 2016 did WAPOL already have the accused on their radar????


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[Frequant Flyer]

However since the famous FB comment: "maybe you are on a no-ride list. must have been a bad boy when you were younger!"
AND the other famous FB comment: "not as bad as you",
an over keen, sleep deprived sleuth may surmise that any alleged familial DNA samples were already on database when a certain someone was younger.
i.e. the certain someone not having offended in the last 2 years.

Therefore familial database searches with either CG or KK samples would have PINGED the same alleged familial match......MANY YEARS BEFORE

If the bad boy and not as bad as you banter between the two is in relation to criminal activity in the past it implies both knew the others criminal histories ... If it is in relation to actual criminal charges it implies both were in the system , and maybe it's just banter and they were both in trouble with mum

 

[janwa]

If the bad boy and not as bad as you banter between the two is in relation to criminal activity in the past it implies both knew the others criminal histories ... If it is in relation to actual criminal charges it implies both were in the system, and maybe it's just banter and they were both in trouble with mum

Or bad and never been charged, how bad can you get

 

[Eaglette]

Freqantas Flyer - that banter on Facebook between brothers - well that still has to be revealed! I reckon both brothers would have been on a list from the Huntingdale attack of suspects especially living in Huntingdale. Quite possibly started as a "crush" from school or from stalking and peeping nearby.

I'm not familiar - but, when you have been convicted of a crime they don't take everyone's DNA surely. I doubt in Juvie Court DNA is taken from the little recidivists.

When is DNA even taken on adult perps?

When you get busted for Drink Driving (I know its a mug shot) + fingerprints but, is it DNA? or, is it when you are found guilty and transferred into the Slammer? Then you are definitely on the police data base DNA.

Or, is it only serious crimes? 981,000 persons are on the National Data base according to that last link from PressReader.

Is the police Crime Data base DNA different to the National Data base DNA of 981,000. Oh I just end up with more questions (as usual). I don't even know if perps have access to FaceBook in Jail or access to WS (that's one scary thought). JMO

 

[janwa]

Freqantas Flyer - that banter on Facebook between brothers - well that still has to be revealed! I reckon both brothers would have been on a list from the Huntingdale attack of suspects especially living in Huntingdale. Quite possibly started as a "crush" from school or from stalking and peeping nearby.
I'm not familiar - but, when you have been convicted of a crime they don't take everyone's DNA surely. I doubt in Juvie Court DNA is taken from the little recidivists.
When is DNA even taken on adult perps?
When you get busted for Drink Driving (I know its a mug shot) + fingerprints but, is it DNA? or, is it when you are found guilty and transferred into the Slammer? Then you are definitely on the police data base DNA.
Or, is it only serious crimes? 981,000 persons are on the National Data base according to that last link from PressReader.
Is the police Crime Data base DNA different to the National Data base DNA of 981,000. Oh I just end up with more questions (as usual). I don't even know if perps have access to FaceBook in Jail or access to WS (that's one scary thought). JMO

I've always suspected they take a DNA sample when they do the PKU test on new borns. Even if you have a home birth the midwife has to take a PKU test. But then I'm suspicious by nature.