Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[no name]

Good question. I would be guessing. Knowing context around it would be good.

If you read the Supreme Court transcripts from Rayneys defamation trial it may give you an idea of how it came about. I dont have the link at hand, sorry. They were discussing the non randomness of CR murder when taking into account her burial site.

 

[lampformypath]

In the past, there’s been discussions’ regarding cross-dressing. We’ve typed about the stealing of clothes from clotheslines – i.e. snowdropping.

Below is an article which contains information regarding serial killers who were actually dressed as a girl when they were young, which leads to humiliation. I suppose it’s difficult to understand why a parent would do such a demoralizing thing, but I guess a paedophile might do that if he had a son but wanted to fantasize he was a girl!

These are only my thoughts and opinion I’m not suggesting this happened in the E family.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201611/boys-dressed-girls-who-became-serial-killers

Whoa!! How fascinating was that article? I don't know about that in the case of BRE, but something clearly seems to have gone wrong and very early on, IF he is the CSK of course. I found this article with the 5 Key traits/types of a SK, which end with "Average Joe", so pretty much anyone could be one! They would appear to come in all shapes and sizes, all walks of life, all socio-economic groups. But mixed up childhoods seem to be a very common theme, ala your boy dressed as a girl. There's a very old saying: "Give me a child till he's 7 and I'll show you the man." Not always true of course, but those first 7 years are crucial for identity and personality development. Having had foster children for 5 years, and from very extreme backgrounds, I can tell you it's an uphill battle once they get into those school age years, to make positive changes in their lives, but not impossible. One child that eventually left our care, was already exhibiting voyeurism, arson, violence to animals from the age of 5. Quite terrifying as he was in our care for 6 months at the age of 11 so behaviour was full on by then. So sad, so dreadfully sad. But his brother (exactly the same background) who stayed with us for 3.5 years went on to do an apprenticeship and is even doing voluntary work overseas at an orphanage he heard about, just awesome!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ve-key-traits-common-notorious-murderers.html

QUOTE which I thought quite telling:
BBM

[h=2]"COULD CHILDHOOD ABUSE BE A FACTOR?[/h]

Previous studies have found a link between serial killers and childhood abuse, including physical, mental and sexual.The killers typically come from unstable families, shown signs of voyeurism and sadomasochism from an early age and more than 90 percent of serial killers are male."




​

 

[Credulious]

Are ya sayin his parents abused him?

Whoa!! How fascinating was that article? I don't know about that in the case of BRE, but something clearly seems to have gone wrong and very early on, IF he is the CSK of course. I found this article with the 5 Key traits/types of a SK, which end with "Average Joe", so pretty much anyone could be one! They would appear to come in all shapes and sizes, all walks of life, all socio-economic groups. But mixed up childhoods seem to be a very common theme, ala your boy dressed as a girl. There's a very old saying: "Give me a child till he's 7 and I'll show you the man." Not always true of course, but those first 7 years are crucial for identity and personality development. Having had foster children for 5 years, and from very extreme backgrounds, I can tell you it's an uphill battle once they get into those school age years, to make positive changes in their lives, but not impossible. One child that eventually left our care, was already exhibiting voyeurism, arson, violence to animals from the age of 5. Quite terrifying as he was in our care for 6 months at the age of 11 so behaviour was full on by then. So sad, so dreadfully sad. But his brother (exactly the same background) who stayed with us for 3.5 years went on to do an apprenticeship and is even doing voluntary work overseas at an orphanage he heard about, just awesome!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ve-key-traits-common-notorious-murderers.html

QUOTE which I thought quite telling:
BBM

"COULD CHILDHOOD ABUSE BE A FACTOR?

Previous studies have found a link between serial killers and childhood abuse, including physical, mental and sexual.The killers typically come from unstable families, shown signs of voyeurism and sadomasochism from an early age and more than 90 percent of serial killers are male."




​

 

[meticulously]

15 Feb 1988 Huntingdale
Moon was dark

https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1988/february

 

[Akai]

The car described in the Cottesloe abduction was a 'hatch back or station wagon'.

Very interesting, thank you.

At first glance I did not think that would fit with the CSK because he was too meticulous and controlled.

But seeing as it happened in 1989, not long after HD when he was younger and obviously not as organized (as evidenced by the fact that he fled and dropped something in the HD attack), it might be. Perhaps part of the learning phase. Perhaps also he was close to getting caught with HD and a part of that was because it was close to home so decided to shift areas, hence moving to Claremont, which was then revisited later.

This of course depends on whether the crimes (HD, KK, and CSKs) are all linked, and who the perpetrator is, which we don't know yet.


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[Akai]

Thanks Spinnaker.

Yes it's takes a certain type of personality to restrict and control conversations and verbalisations while allegedly committing heinous crimes.

If this was BRE, then it's a fair chance he may be a psychopath. All speculation.


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

I would assume all serial killers are psychopaths? I'd never considered that they could be anything else. I wonder if they can have another personality disorder (not in conjunction with psychopathy, but absent psychopathy)?

Regardless IMO no doubt the CSK is a sadistic psychopath.


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[Akai]

Why was that asked of him in the Rayney trial do you think? What was the context?

I think that it had something to do with how police go about determining if a killing is random or part of a pattern/planned. MO is that he was using other high profile WA cases as comparison. However, whether he was using Claremont as an example of something random (differing from Rayney's) or not random (similar to Rayney's) I'm unsure. Would have to read the whole transcript. I'm guessing the latter, and then he didn't get the answer he wanted.

It was addressed in opening statements in this context:

"But Mr Bennett countered that one of those — that the way Mrs Rayney’s body was buried “was not typical of a random killing” — was “preposterously incapable of proof”, citing cases including the Claremont serial killings and the murders by Catherine and David Birnie of killings."

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ed-corryn-ng-71ffd7d749963107b187755773021fa5

And also when the question was asked:

"But in a separate court case last Tuesday, Detective Sergeant Ian Moore of the Major Crime Squad was giving evidence in a defamation trial brought by barrister Lloyd Rayney when he was asked by Mr Rayney’s lawyer Martin Bennett: “Do you accept that the Claremont serial killer killings were random attacks — the only thing linking Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer, Ciara Glennon being an attendance in Claremont?”
Sergeant Moore replied that he did not accept that: “I have knowledge of that particular job that I can’t particularly enlighten the court about and those — no, I can’t accept that proposition.”"

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...s/news-story/bbca989cb476faeb057b042380826366



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[Xyz]

The car was driven about a kilometre away to Karrakatta Cemetery where she was raped, police allege.


Police say the distraught woman then ran to a pharmacy at a nearby hospital, believed to be the Hollywood Private Hospital, where staff arranged for tests to be conducted.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/alleged-rape-victim-attends-court-appearance-ng-b88429529z

Probably by the SARC team

 

[Xyz]

SARC. Sexual Assault Resource Centre was available by then I would presume she was taken there. It is attached to King Edward though a separate building. They specialise in collecting forensic samples.

Hi Janwa, I responded with same thought before I got to your comment. Snap!

 

[Credulious]

Hi Janwa, I responded with same thought before I got to your comment. Snap!

The car was driven about a kilometre away to Karrakatta Cemetery where she was raped, police allege.


Police say the distraught woman then ran to a pharmacy at a nearby hospital, believed to be the Hollywood Private Hospital, where staff arranged for tests to be conducted.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/alleged-rape-victim-attends-court-appearance-ng-b88429529z

SARC. Sexual Assault Resource Centre was available by then I would presume she was taken there. It is attached to King Edward though a separate building. They specialise in collecting forensic samples.

Being so close, I wouldn't be surprised if they sent the team to Hollywood. In regards to DNA, its probably better in this case under the circumstances being such a horrific sexual assault they preserve DNA integrity.

Don't touch her! We will be there in 5 minutes! = forensic

You can only imagine how she felt running into Hollywood hospital naked fresh from the ordeal. Mortified.

She may have been already in the presence of police officers at Hollywood.

 

[milamber182]

Regarding the suspect for the Southside Rapist based on the police sketch this is my theory I posted a while back:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...-Western-Australia-16&p=13641313#post13641313

The MAKO website is not working right now so here's an article on Dennis Lyddieth:

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...uart-hill-ng-bedade24854ae379e6574da7411027cc

 

[apoptosisfutz]

Being so close, I wouldn't be surprised if they sent the team to Hollywood. In regards to DNA, its probably better in this case under the circumstances being such a horrific sexual assault they preserve DNA integrity.

Don't touch her! We will be there in 5 minutes! = forensic

You can only imagine how she felt running into Hollywood hospital naked fresh from the ordeal. Mortified.

She may have been already in the presence of police officers at Hollywood.

Is there any MSM source for the crime scene from inside the cemetery? Do we know where etc.? Surely there was one and it was marked out and assessed? I haven't heard anything about this part of the investigation.

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[janwa]

Regarding the suspect for the Southside Rapist based on the police sketch this is my theory I posted a while back:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...-Western-Australia-16&p=13641313#post13641313
The MAKO website is not working right now so here's an article on Dennis Lyddieth:
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...uart-hill-ng-bedade24854ae379e6574da7411027cc

It could be useful to publish a convicted multiple rapist's area of operating it may bring forward other reports.

Examples of killers killing again taken from The Australian not sure if the link will open.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...8987d8bb3?sv=25e31ba723e61e09c2be4f88dfc7cebd
[FONT=&quot]Parole killers[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2006: William John Watkins murders his Altona North neighbours, sisters Colleen and Laura Irwin (23 and 21) while on parole. Watkins had served time in jail for assaulting police and members of the public and, in 2000, was sentenced to four years' jail for rape. He was shot dead in Western Australia three days after murdering the sisters.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2010: David Patrick Clifford is on parole for drug trafficking when he bashes, stabs and fatally strangles 26-year-old Elsa Janet Corp in a South Melbourne hotel room on February 1. The pair were on a blind date. He had previously breached a suspended sentence, and prior convictions included false imprisonment, aggravated burglary, resist arrest, dangerous driving and at least six others.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2012: Adrian Bayley has 20 prior convictions for rape and assault and is on parole when he rapes and murders ABC employee Jill Meagher on September 21. In February the same year his parole was not cancelled despite an assault on a man in Geelong.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2012: Steven James Hunter's parole had expired nine days before he killed Bacchus Marsh woman Sarah Cafferkey in November last year. He had previously served 13 years in prison for murdering 18-year-old Jacqueline Mathews in 1986. On sentencing for the former, the judge noted his prior criminal history was so extensive she would not read it out to the court.[/FONT]

 

[aequitas]

I would assume all serial killers are psychopaths? I'd never considered that they could be anything else. I wonder if they can have another personality disorder (not in conjunction with psychopathy, but absent psychopathy)?

Regardless IMO no doubt the CSK is a sadistic psychopath.


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narcissistic personality disorder - high functioning, manipulative, charming yet totally heartless and malignant individuals.

 

[meticulously]

Offenders who speak during attacks want to take immediate control of the victim and there are many known cases that this happened.
It maybe a sign of weakness that the perpetrator didn't speak .
The victim may have picked up on that vibe and it so turned out she survived .
Im not so sure the lack of speaking is more scary than a situation where the attacker takes control immediately by threatening "dont move or ill kill you!"
(Thats what the ear/ons said )
JmO

 

[meticulously]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13973300

Ear/ons thread post # 1012
Quote from new book about the ear/ons gsk refers to home invasion rapes

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/letter-to-the-golden-state-killer

 

[lampformypath]

Are ya sayin his parents abused him?

Hi Credulious, I couldn't possibly know if his parents abused him, but define "abuse"? Abuse can be non-physical of course, verbal put downs (sometimes done as little family "jokes") teasing his appearance, maybe even his introverted personality in his younger years. (All this is hypothetical) He could have had a very out-going sibling who always "out shone" him with looks and charm, so he was always "second best", not the favourite son? It could be just lack of attention/affection. Studies we undertook when we were training during our care of the foster children (we had absolutely NO proper training beforehand, just thrown in and told to swim like hell!) showed that mothers who just didn't give their babies eye contact, were indifferent to them, didn't play with them, just did "the basics" e.g. kept the baby clean and fed, their babies eventually stopped crying and trying to get their attention. Became quiet and didn't smile or interact with other children as they grew up, became very isolated and had trouble concentrating/learning, in other words, failed to thrive. Abuse has many forms. We always think of violence, sexual abuse, but to have warmth and gentleness withheld from a baby can have terrible effects on a child as he/she grows. Of course I'm talking about the mothering side of things, a whole other ball of wax when it comes to the father/son relationship. We had 2 boys who's father had been in and out of prison, mother a heroin addict/prostitute. The boys had built up such an image of their father that he was a Superman, nothing could be further from the truth, but we always listened and encouraged them to keep in touch with their Dad and Mum, very important to these children. If a father is indifferent to his son, or favours one over another, then feelings of inadequacy can come into play for that non-favoured son for his entire life. Never good enough. And if Dad is a bit of a lad with the ladies (or tells his boys he is) then that's another unrealistic expectation to put on a boy. "Why can't you get a girlfriend? What's wrong with you son? You're not a "fairy" are ya???" You're getting the picture here I'm sure Cred. Can you see how this might make for a very angry young boy? Then when puberty hits, well, I'll show him who's a man! The self-gratification is another problem and whilst it's totally normal for boys to be boys and girls to be girls (or boys to be girls....oh you get it), when it starts to become an obsession and the only way to feel "good" then that can lead to the voyeurism, flashing (one of the boys we had became overly sexualised very young, and he'd self-pleasured from a very young age as he'd never felt loved. Had also witnessed father having sex with other women from a young age, terrible)... It's all such a deep psychological minefield. I do NOT have any psych training, just learned a lot at the coalface so to speak. Sorry to go on, will shut up now!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3357276/Mothers-who-cant-bond-with-their-babies.html

"There are many women who have feelings of indifference, ambivalence or even dislike for their child, but they rarely admit it for fear of seeming 'unnatural' or inadequate. A survey for Johnson's Baby found that more than a third of mothers have felt they have not bonded with their baby as much as they should have, and 18 per cent say they've had moments when they've felt no bond at all."​

 

[lampformypath]

Hi all,

This is VERY hard to watch, but it only goes 2 and half minutes. It will show you just what happens in only a few seconds to a baby that is ignored. Imagine growing up with this and how it begins to subtly change a child.

I am NOT for one minute condoning any abhorrent behaviour by CSK or any other killer/rapist/violent offender, I'm just trying to show very quickly how important a nurturing, loving environment is for developing good citizens of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0

 

[petedavo.au]

Why was that asked of him in the Rayney trial do you think? What was the context?

From my vague memory of the case,
The Defence was trying to establish that investigators were prone to confirmation bias. In other words the lawyer was trying to establish that the investigators made up their mind about crimes and overlooked other possibilities, and only considered evidence that confirmed their bias (or made evidence that confirmed their bias), ignoring evidence that disproved their bias. Rayney had knowledge of the Royal Commission on the Pamela Lawrence investigation, which because of confirmation bias resulted in the wrong man going to jail. This witness, Detective Moore didn't work on the Lawrence case, but did work on Macro, so if the defence could illicit a response that showed he had made up his mind about that unsolved (at the time) case and was showing confirmation bias, then the lawyer could put reasonable doubt about the evidence that the witness was presenting in the Rayney defamation trial. As it turned out, that's basically how the whole Rayney murder trial panned out and everyone knows the result of that.
Det Lee's statement during the investigation on Corryn's murder where he made a statement about Lloyd being the only suspect, could appear to be a classic example of confirmation bias. Proving that investigators were prone to confirmation bias, and thus Detectives in Corryn's murder had already made up their mind on Lloyd's culpability would negate any evidence that Moore would put up in Lee's defamation defence that his statement in public was a reasonable summation of the case, that there were no other possible suspects.
IMO


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[petedavo.au]

Hi Credulious, I couldn't possibly know if his parents abused him, but define "abuse"? Abuse can be non-physical of course, verbal put downs (sometimes done as little family "jokes") teasing his appearance, maybe even his introverted personality in his younger years. (All this is hypothetical) He could have had a very out-going sibling who always "out shone" him with looks and charm, so he was always "second best", not the favourite son? It could be just lack of attention/affection. Studies we undertook when we were training during our care of the foster children (we had absolutely NO proper training beforehand, just thrown in and told to swim like hell!) showed that mothers who just didn't give their babies eye contact, were indifferent to them, didn't play with them, just did "the basics" e.g. kept the baby clean and fed, their babies eventually stopped crying and trying to get their attention. Became quiet and didn't smile or interact with other children as they grew up, became very isolated and had trouble concentrating/learning, in other words, failed to thrive. Abuse has many forms. We always think of violence, sexual abuse, but to have warmth and gentleness withheld from a baby can have terrible effects on a child as he/she grows. Of course I'm talking about the mothering side of things, a whole other ball of wax when it comes to the father/son relationship. We had 2 boys who's father had been in and out of prison, mother a heroin addict/prostitute. The boys had built up such an image of their father that he was a Superman, nothing could be further from the truth, but we always listened and encouraged them to keep in touch with their Dad and Mum, very important to these children. If a father is indifferent to his son, or favours one over another, then feelings of inadequacy can come into play for that non-favoured son for his entire life. Never good enough. And if Dad is a bit of a lad with the ladies (or tells his boys he is) then that's another unrealistic expectation to put on a boy. "Why can't you get a girlfriend? What's wrong with you son? You're not a "fairy" are ya???" You're getting the picture here I'm sure Cred. Can you see how this might make for a very angry young boy? Then when puberty hits, well, I'll show him who's a man! The self-gratification is another problem and whilst it's totally normal for boys to be boys and girls to be girls (or boys to be girls....oh you get it), when it starts to become an obsession and the only way to feel "good" then that can lead to the voyeurism, flashing (one of the boys we had became overly sexualised very young, and he'd self-pleasured from a very young age as he'd never felt loved. Had also witnessed father having sex with other women from a young age, terrible)... It's all such a deep psychological minefield. I do NOT have any psych training, just learned a lot at the coalface so to speak. Sorry to go on, will shut up now!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3357276/Mothers-who-cant-bond-with-their-babies.html

"There are many women who have feelings of indifference, ambivalence or even dislike for their child, but they rarely admit it for fear of seeming 'unnatural' or inadequate. A survey for Johnson's Baby found that more than a third of mothers have felt they have not bonded with their baby as much as they should have, and 18 per cent say they've had moments when they've felt no bond at all."​

I heard something on the ABC radio yesterday about this. I think it was on RN Drive with Patricia Karvelas. Some lady discussing a condition where she couldn't bond with her children. Hated them etc. Had to get treatment. It had name. Postpartum depression, or Narcissist mother, or such like. Can't find it now.

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