Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[WhyWhy]

I believe this CIB office might be the building with 282 superimposed upon it immediately behind the cop shop and before the child care centre on Bernard St.

Hardly ground breaking reply that I am adding, but 282 has St Johns Ambo training noted all over. It could however be just the front building and the neat 1950s government blgs to the rear could have been CIB, ditto those directly behind police station. In Perth team of cops/medicos-psychs ‘PET team’ work out of completely undisclosed locations, but I doubt Claremont is one.
No doubt the Post would have reported CIB offices in its distribution area, unless asked to keep location quiet.
Also and perhaps the last on this, but the ‘multinova’ set up the front of the Stirling Hwy police station, at the time, allegedly catching every vehicle would only have been conclusively helpful if Railway Rd, Gugeri were also captured.

 

[nbates]

been contemplating for a week whether to posr/ask this question as it's probably either been discussed before or seen as sensationalist. But seeing it's quiet here goes.
I read that Jane's body location was near vegetation known as "death lillies". Other reports didn't mention whether that was also the case with Ciara, but I did read that detectives said that where they were located told them a lot about the perpetrator.
Was this purely a fluke do you think (re: lilies) and what do you think the locations told police about the perpetrator?
I've been reading a few things about locations but nothing really is obvious to me (not that it would be as I'm no expert and not familiar with the locations).
Just thought if there was a pattern it could give ideas for locating Sarah.

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[Jackman]

been contemplating for a week whether to posr/ask this question as it's probably either been discussed before or seen as sensationalist. But seeing it's quiet here goes.
I read that Jane's body location was near vegetation known as "death lillies". Other reports didn't mention whether that was also the case with Ciara, but I did read that detectives said that where they were located told them a lot about the perpetrator.
Was this purely a fluke do you think (re: lilies) and what do you think the locations told police about the perpetrator?
I've been reading a few things about locations but nothing really is obvious to me (not that it would be as I'm no expert and not familiar with the locations).
Just thought if there was a pattern it could give ideas for locating Sarah.

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Would the death lillies have been in bloom when Jane was placed there? Are they long flowering lillies.

 

[theREALjLo]

been contemplating for a week whether to posr/ask this question as it's probably either been discussed before or seen as sensationalist. But seeing it's quiet here goes.
I read that Jane's body location was near vegetation known as "death lillies". Other reports didn't mention whether that was also the case with Ciara, but I did read that detectives said that where they were located told them a lot about the perpetrator.
Was this purely a fluke do you think (re: lilies) and what do you think the locations told police about the perpetrator?
I've been reading a few things about locations but nothing really is obvious to me (not that it would be as I'm no expert and not familiar with the locations).
Just thought if there was a pattern it could give ideas for locating Sarah.

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I think it was a fluke. An eerie coincidence at that. Though if you Google where to find the lilies, it could be located in either site potentially.

When they say that the locations told them a lot about the perpetrator, I tend to think more literally along the lines of having a passenger vehicle vs a 4x4 or if he was strong enough to carry a body into the bush vs having to drag it, his familiarity with Perth and it’s outskirts etc. I live up in the northern suburbs and it’s weird to think how quick and easy it is to get to Eglington now; but back then it would have been a fairly long drive! All just IMO though.




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[Jackman]

I think it was a fluke. An eerie coincidence at that. Though if you Google where to find the lilies, it could be located in either site potentially.

When they say that the locations told them a lot about the perpetrator, I tend to think more literally along the lines of having a passenger vehicle vs a 4x4 or if he was strong enough to carry a body into the bush vs having to drag it, his familiarity with Perth and it’s outskirts etc. I live up in the northern suburbs and it’s weird to think how quick and easy it is to get to Eglington now; but back then it would have been a fairly long drive! All just IMO though.




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In addition to the geographical proximity there is the positioning of the body - clothed, naked, legs placement. Items left beside them. Arms besides them or crossed etc.

 

[lampformypath]

been contemplating for a week whether to posr/ask this question as it's probably either been discussed before or seen as sensationalist. But seeing it's quiet here goes.
I read that Jane's body location was near vegetation known as "death lillies". Other reports didn't mention whether that was also the case with Ciara, but I did read that detectives said that where they were located told them a lot about the perpetrator.
Was this purely a fluke do you think (re: lilies) and what do you think the locations told police about the perpetrator?
I've been reading a few things about locations but nothing really is obvious to me (not that it would be as I'm no expert and not familiar with the locations).
Just thought if there was a pattern it could give ideas for locating Sarah.
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Something I thought about too NBates! I've found this site which shows the distribution throughout Australia, and more particularly, the areas in WA where it flourishes. It is considered a weed of course, even though many people, like me, think they are so beautiful.
QUOTE:

Distribution:​

12,000 Ha in WA spread over the Esperance plains, Geraldton sandplains, Jarrah forest, Swan coastal plain and Warren regions.​

"
"Life cycle:

Perennial. Flowers mainly from August to December. Seeds germinate in autumn and winter and grow slowly producing a pea sized tuber by its first summer. It continues growth during summer if moisture is available and becomes dormant in early winter. New leaves form in winter to spring. It normally takes several years before it flowers. Nodules from tubers behave similarly and increase in size before flowering. Large tubers produce leaves in winter and spring and flower from late winter to spring each year. The flowering stem collapses and the spathe dries out as the seeds mature. Top growth normally dies off by mid to late summer and growth resumes in autumn.​

"

http://www.herbiguide.com.au/Descriptions/hg_Arum_Lily.htm

There's a lot of deep discussions about the symbolic meaning of the Lily on this WS link, particularly by crabstick that you might find helpful too. (From post #84)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...iller-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia/page6

And of course "Tammy" the lady picking flowers that was lead to Jane by the "giant" lily:
QUOTE:
"She had picked two when a giant flower twice the size of any others caught her eye, leading her off the road and a few metres into the scrub for a closer look."

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20160125/282149290328951

WAPOL wore Arum Lily pins after Jane was found.
The Devil's Garden Page 37:
"It is a simple symbol, on a tiny badge: the Arum lily, chosen after Jane's body is found."..... Each officer around 100 at the peak of the investigation - will wear it discreetly on their lapel."

Arum Lilies are incredibly hardy being a weed, but seem to thrive where there is swampy land, near river banks, small waterways. We had them growing wild in the hills of Perth near creeks.

 

[nbates]

Thanks all. Esp LFMP - saved me the Google search! And yes of course I'd forgotten about the symbol of the case.

Here's the comment on the location (via report so beware Chinese whispers translation I guess):

"The location of the body made sense to police. Eglinton was north of where the Mitchell Freeway ended.

Jane Rimmer had been dumped near the end of the Kwinana Freeway.

No attempt had been made to bury either of the bodies. Though Jane Rimmer was naked, Ciara was reportedly fully clothed.

The details of how they died have never been released, but police did confirm that the women’s gravesites had given them a valuable insight into the mind of the killer."

WA doesn't have the 'no body no parole' law does it? Useless anyway I gather with whoever is perp up for 50+ years anyway.

I know it's been looked at already, but in summary do we think these sites were familiar to current suspect because of the routes his work took him too or simply easy distance and dump sites?

If the latter we could guess Sarah is in a similar location (at that point in time anyway) East.

Like I said I know it's been looked at but would love a summary as it's hard to keep up with all info particularly when you're not from perth. (Ie: please don't can me for going over old stuff! I know some of you loathe that).



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[nbates]

Oh my. Just read Crabsticks posts. Wonder if s/he ever finished the novel? But I can't talk as I was thinking of Arum Lily connection. Sure it was all in the best of intentions and as they say truth is stranger than fiction.

So maybe my off the top of my head quick and simple theory of somewhere end of a freeway East in 1996 might be the same as what a killer in a hurry with no other agenda/formula would opt for.

As it was the first though, I wonder if he would be in more of a rush and would pick a spot closer to the crime site to separate himself more quickly or whether he'd go out even further to ensure crime detection delayed and physical separation further from home.

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[Jackman]

Oh my. Just read Crabsticks posts. Wonder if s/he ever finished the novel? But I can't talk as I was thinking of Arum Lily connection. Sure it was all in the best of intentions and as they say truth is stranger than fiction.

So maybe my off the top of my head quick and simple theory of somewhere end of a freeway East in 1996 might be the same as what a killer in a hurry with no other agenda/formula would opt for.

As it was the first though, I wonder if he would be in more of a rush and would pick a spot closer to the crime site to separate himself more quickly or whether he'd go out even further to ensure crime detection delayed and physical separation further from home.

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Could it be possible, he placed her at the D-site, continued on to the parents holiday home? Bearing in mind the accused is innocent until proven guilty. JMO

 

[ESH]

There were no lillys growing where poor Ciara was dumped. I know the area.....it is very dry, sandy natural bushland. These lillys require a moist, clay soil environment.

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[lampformypath]

Oh my. Just read Crabsticks posts. Wonder if s/he ever finished the novel? But I can't talk as I was thinking of Arum Lily connection. Sure it was all in the best of intentions and as they say truth is stranger than fiction.

So maybe my off the top of my head quick and simple theory of somewhere end of a freeway East in 1996 might be the same as what a killer in a hurry with no other agenda/formula would opt for.

As it was the first though, I wonder if he would be in more of a rush and would pick a spot closer to the crime site to separate himself more quickly or whether he'd go out even further to ensure crime detection delayed and physical separation further from home.

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Hi NBates, glad my little bit of horticultural information saved you some time. We learn so much about so many different subjects when we're on this forum, at least I do anyway. As for theories as to where Sarah may be I have been thinking more and more about that Eastern direction, like you, and possibly at the very end of Great Eastern Highway before it heads off into the more rural areas, say Sawyers Valley out past Mundaring (38klms from CBD)? Lots of National Parks and water catchment areas there. There is a place called "Terra Pool" MTB Track (even the name sounds scary) - an off-road race track that jumped out at me when I was looking at the hills area. This is straight down Grt Eastern Highway and turn left into Sawyers Valley Road (so off a main artery, down one road and lots of bush around, sounds a bit familiar?) JMO

https://www.google.com/maps/place/T...5f180d12f5815f!8m2!3d-31.8880753!4d116.212453

Also, I was thinking, I wonder if the accused was working in each area at the time of the murders or had crews there more likely? Very familiar with all the roads and bush areas of Wellard and Eglington and perhaps hills areas as he was in and out of there all the time doing his job and overseeing others perhaps? This would also allow him to be working close by and maybe have a communications crew in the area to make a "discovery" and report back to him so he could report it? BRE was a supervisor, from memory, so he would set the work rosters?
The Devil's Garden" (Sorry, can't find the page reference to this, will post when I do)

QUOTE:

"at Ciara's recovery site ​

Telstra workers

in the area had been aware of the smell of decomposition and suspected a dead kangaroo.​

"

So Telstra workers just happened to be in that exact area where Ciara was found BEFORE she was found? Wonder if Telstra workers had been in the area where Jane was found too but didn't go close enough to where she was? I'm sure WAPOL will have checked Telstra work schedules for the accused and his crew for the exact areas they were working in around the time Sarah went missing and in the weeks just after? I've read that some SKs take great delight in being around when one of their victims is discovered, close by and watching it all unfold. being part of the drama and the observing the police reports in MSM?

And NBates, no one should "can" you for anything, least of all going over old info or not knowing areas as you're not from WA. You're most welcome here!!

 

[nbates]

Thanks again.

Wow. Telstra workers mentioned. That's huge.

Yes I agree Macro should be all over this already. Only doubt I have is whether it's too late for a find unless revealed. Remains scattered or covered over time. Can cadaver dogs pick up this sort of thing? If yes and I had one I'd consider mapping likely areas and search systematically every other weekend.

And yes interesting point made about some perps liking to be near their work. I listened to a couple of FBI presentations and often organised SKs like to be close to police work near site to keep track of what's going on and/or revisit sites too. CSK definitely organised SK.



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[lampformypath]

Thanks again.

Wow. Telstra workers mentioned. That's huge.

Yes I agree Macro should be all over this already. Only doubt I have is whether it's too late for a find unless revealed. Remains scattered or covered over time. Can cadaver dogs pick up this sort of thing? If yes and I had one I'd consider mapping likely areas and search systematically every other weekend.

And yes interesting point made about some perps liking to be near their work. I listened to a couple of FBI presentations and often organised SKs like to be close to police work near site to keep track of what's going on and/or revisit sites too. CSK definitely organised SK.



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Well Nbates - WOW right back at ya!! You have a cadaver dog and you're willing to do a systematic search?? I'd be willing to help, truly! I found this article about that amazing dog you have and it has blown me away! So the answer to your question is YES, dogs CAN find remains after more than 20 years!!!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

 

[lampformypath]

Thanks all. Esp LFMP - saved me the Google search! And yes of course I'd forgotten about the symbol of the case.

Here's the comment on the location (via report so beware Chinese whispers translation I guess):

"The location of the body made sense to police. Eglinton was north of where the Mitchell Freeway ended.

Jane Rimmer had been dumped near the end of the Kwinana Freeway.

No attempt had been made to bury either of the bodies. Though Jane Rimmer was naked, Ciara was reportedly fully clothed.

The details of how they died have never been released, but police did confirm that the women’s gravesites had given them a valuable insight into the mind of the killer."

WA doesn't have the 'no body no parole' law does it? Useless anyway I gather with whoever is perp up for 50+ years anyway.

I know it's been looked at already, but in summary do we think these sites were familiar to current suspect because of the routes his work took him too or simply easy distance and dump sites?

If the latter we could guess Sarah is in a similar location (at that point in time anyway) East.

Like I said I know it's been looked at but would love a summary as it's hard to keep up with all info particularly when you're not from perth. (Ie: please don't can me for going over old stuff! I know some of you loathe that).



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Hi again NBates, just to let you know that the "no body, no parole" has passed into WA law quite recently, just last month in fact. Here's a link:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/wes...ws-pass-state-parliament-20180320-p4z5cp.html

 

[nbates]

Well Nbates - WOW right back at ya!! You have a cadaver dog and you're willing to do a systematic search?? I'd be willing to help, truly! I found this article about that amazing dog you have and it has blown me away! So the answer to your question is YES, dogs CAN find remains after more than 20 years!!!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

Sorry to dissappoint but no, I don't have a cadaver dog and am in Melbourne anyway. Don't think either of my 2 cats are that talented (nor interested knowing cat 'cattitude'!).

I was just surmising that this is possibly something that could be undertaken. Would probably have to be a retired dog though.

Know it's a lot of work and not an easy task so it's easy for me to talk.

Hope I didn't get anyone's hopes up. Apols if I did.

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[lampformypath]

Sorry to dissappoint but no, I don't have a cadaver dog and am in Melbourne anyway. Don't think either of my 2 cats are that talented (nor interested knowing cat 'cattitude'!).

I was just surmising that this is possibly something that could be undertaken. Would probably have to be a retired dog though.

Know it's a lot of work and not an easy task so it's easy for me to talk.

Hope I didn't get anyone's hopes up. Apols if I did.

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Oh doh!! Thanks NBates, I THOUGHT you said you weren't in WA, but then when you said you were willing to search I figured you might come over here for work on a regular basis? And you're right, cats rule, they don't obey!

With regards to the Telstra workers, the quote reference from "The Devil's Garden":
Page 80:
"Telstra workers in the area had smelt the decomposing body days earlier but had reasoned it was a dead kangaroo"

Something else I've just read that surprised me, and I don't remember reading before, but I obviously did, from The Devil's Garden Page 35 regarding Jane Rimmer's parents and what they were told at the time of Jane's discovery:
"They can take some consolation, they are told, that it does not appear Jane has been sexually assaulted."

I've always believed these were sexually motivated crimes?

 

[petedavo.au]

It is unlikely that the flora in Wellard had any significance to the site chosen to dispose of JR IMO. But to indulge those that have any questions about the Arum Lily, here is the best available information.

Arum lily: declared pest (Zantedeschia aethiopica)*
https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/declared-plants/arum-lily-declared-pest
Plants that invade bushland
https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/weeds/plants-invade-bushland?nopaging=1

I dispute with the WA Agriculture Dept description in the above links as to how Arum Lilies were introduced into WA. According to Fred Carden in his book, Along the Canning, the Arum Lily was brought in by Mr John Okey Davies who was sent to WA in 1829, by the London Perfume Company in the attempt to grow Arum Lilies and manufacture perfume for export. In 1862 his heirs sold the land to Charles Gosnells, the proprietor of the London Perfume Company. In 1905 the property was sold to John Wilkinson of Ballarat whom the homestead, in Homestead Rd Gosnells, (which was actually built by a Mr Pope in 1912) is now named after.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XjMZAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Arum
I knew Fred Carden for many years, and he was a very meticulous historian, a very well informed school teacher, and deputy principal.
Anyway. Fred told me when I was a nipper about the Arum Lilies being planted for the manufacture of perfume in 1829 by John Davies at a farm called Chenies at the junction of Southern River and Canning Rivers.
And here is the proof that he was right.
http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov...leRecord/9dadd12e-7207-4355-a503-689395992c4a
https://www.dpaw.wa.gov.au/images/d...k/about/Landscape description precinct 19.pdf

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[Marylouise911]

Oh doh!! Thanks NBates, I THOUGHT you said you weren't in WA, but then when you said you were willing to search I figured you might come over here for work on a regular basis? And you're right, cats rule, they don't obey!

With regards to the Telstra workers, the quote reference from "The Devil's Garden":
Page 80:
"Telstra workers in the area had smelt the decomposing body days earlier but had reasoned it was a dead kangaroo"

Something else I've just read that surprised me, and I don't remember reading before, but I obviously did, from The Devil's Garden Page 35 regarding Jane Rimmer's parents and what they were told at the time of Jane's discovery:
"They can take some consolation, they are told, that it does not appear Jane has been sexually assaulted."

I've always believed these were sexually motivated crimes?

Hi Lamp,

RE Jane's murder not being a sexually motivated crime. I have read similar comments over the years in many MSM articles and I really don't understand how the public are supposed to believe these crimes weren't sexually motivated.

Were the comments made originally upon the discovery of Jane's body, before Ciara went missing, then recycled over the years?

I've always questioned the comments and even more so now given the accused is charged with the Huntingdale crime, a brutal abduction and rape at KK as well as 3 murders. I think it is worthy of some discussion. Why would the family of Jane be told that if it wasn't true?

MOO


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[DRT]

Something I thought about too NBates! I've found this site which shows the distribution throughout Australia, and more particularly, the areas in WA where it flourishes. It is considered a weed of course, even though many people, like me, think they are so beautiful.
QUOTE:

Distribution:​

12,000 Ha in WA spread over the Esperance plains, Geraldton sandplains, Jarrah forest, Swan coastal plain and Warren regions.​

"
"Life cycle:

Perennial. Flowers mainly from August to December. Seeds germinate in autumn and winter and grow slowly producing a pea sized tuber by its first summer. It continues growth during summer if moisture is available and becomes dormant in early winter. New leaves form in winter to spring. It normally takes several years before it flowers. Nodules from tubers behave similarly and increase in size before flowering. Large tubers produce leaves in winter and spring and flower from late winter to spring each year. The flowering stem collapses and the spathe dries out as the seeds mature. Top growth normally dies off by mid to late summer and growth resumes in autumn.​

"

http://www.herbiguide.com.au/Descriptions/hg_Arum_Lily.htm

There's a lot of deep discussions about the symbolic meaning of the Lily on this WS link, particularly by crabstick that you might find helpful too. (From post #84)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...iller-1996-1997-Perth-Western-Australia/page6

And of course "Tammy" the lady picking flowers that was lead to Jane by the "giant" lily:
QUOTE:
"She had picked two when a giant flower twice the size of any others caught her eye, leading her off the road and a few metres into the scrub for a closer look."

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-west-australian/20160125/282149290328951

WAPOL wore Arum Lily pins after Jane was found.
The Devil's Garden Page 37:
"It is a simple symbol, on a tiny badge: the Arum lily, chosen after Jane's body is found."..... Each officer around 100 at the peak of the investigation - will wear it discreetly on their lapel."

Arum Lilies are incredibly hardy being a weed, but seem to thrive where there is swampy land, near river banks, small waterways. We had them growing wild in the hills of Perth near creeks.

If the JR's body was placed shortly after going missing on 9 June 1996 and her body was found in August it is probably the start of the season for the lillies.

The similarities were that they were just shortly off a major road. Both bodies were unlikely to be discovered soon but as they were just covered in vegetation. I have read that the sites may have been planned beforehand so that they were easy to access but bodies were not easy to find.

 

[nbates]

Oh doh!! Thanks NBates, I THOUGHT you said you weren't in WA, but then when you said you were willing to search I figured you might come over here for work on a regular basis? And you're right, cats rule, they don't obey!

With regards to the Telstra workers, the quote reference from "The Devil's Garden":
Page 80:
"Telstra workers in the area had smelt the decomposing body days earlier but had reasoned it was a dead kangaroo"

Something else I've just read that surprised me, and I don't remember reading before, but I obviously did, from The Devil's Garden Page 35 regarding Jane Rimmer's parents and what they were told at the time of Jane's discovery:
"They can take some consolation, they are told, that it does not appear Jane has been sexually assaulted."

I've always believed these were sexually motivated crimes?

Thanks again. I have read the Devils Garden ages ago so thanks for that info 're Jane's attack. Wanted to read it again but I've packed it away for a possible future house move and couldn't find it when I last looked. I digress...

I can't remember reading that about her attack not being sexual. That stumps me a bit considering as other poster (Sorry forgot name!) Pointed out about cemetery attack etc.

Maybe Jane fought so hard it was too risky timewise or physically impossible for CSK to finish what he'd started - good for her if that's the case. I thought I read she was relatively quiet but she looks like the life of the party. Hope she was feisty when she needed to be and did some damage. Shame she couldn't get away if this is the scenario.

Didn't realise the Arum Lillies weren't native. Amazing how the extra large ones drew the flower picker to Jane. Wouldn't be surprised if Jane organised that as well. Especially if she fought her darndest and was really PO'd (and I mean that in the nicest possible afterlife way should there be one).

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