Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[Annalise]

I agree with your thoughts Annalise. What period of time were you thinking? Days or hours?

I've always felt that KK cemetery or surrounding buildings could have been a place the girls were taken after the initial abductions. Dark and secluded and also a familiar location where the accused had committed a previous sick crime. He may have been confident that because he hadn't been caught for that crime, he could continue to use the location without close monitoring of the area as the focus was on Claremont and taxi drivers? Whilst the cemetery is more secure and closed up to vehicles at night these days, it wasn't like that at the time of the crimes. JMO


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Hi Marylouise911 - I feel he may have kept the girls hostage for weeks. With JR she was 7 weeks missing. He could have kept her up to 4 or 5 weeks. With CG she was 2 weeks and five days missing - he could have kept her for five days or a week.

Also I believe that SS was buried at Karrakatta Cemetary. This would put her almost in the centre of the abduction site in Claremont. MOO


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[Fast Eddie]

Just looking at the route from Claremont to Spectacles - as shown in below map.

Coincidently, the route takes in 2 of the Claremont Ghost hint vids:

Hint 6 0 Stirling Bridge
Hint 5 - Parkie described as Naval base at Garden Island, perhaps it is Naval base at end of Anketell Road (although impossible to decipher image without some inside knowledge

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...h-Western-Australia-4&p=12396408#post12396408

Just had another look at the Claremont Ghost Videos. I still reckon they are just rubbish

 

[Marylouise911]

Hi Marylouise911 - I feel he may have kept the girls hostage for weeks. With JR she was 7 weeks missing. He could have kept her up to 4 or 5 weeks. With CG she was 2 weeks and five days missing - he could have kept her for five days or a week.

Also I believe that SS was buried at Karrakatta Cemetary. This would put her almost in the centre of the abduction site in Claremont. MOO


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Thanks Annalise. I have never thought about that possibility. However you are right. There isn't any way to confirm the girls were dumped the nights/early mornings they were abducted. It makes me think how much really is possible and how little we know at present.

I too share the same idea that Sarah may have been buried at KK. Just recently a friend and I parked along Government Rd and walked past the cemetery along Loch St quite late at night. Yes it is eerily quiet and I think it is possible occupants of surrounding houses, or dogs even, would hear screams or commotion etc on the outskirts but once deep into cemetery with the victims possibly gagged or maimed, I think it would be quite easy for someone to enter, carry out sick crimes and leave without drawing attention to themselves with the option of returning at a later date. MOO ofcourse.

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[lampformypath]

Can someone post a link to where “locals” said Pipidinny road was a busy road back in 1997. It’s not even a busy road now and still has no houses around it. From my recollection parts of it were unsealed at the time. It might have been a popular stretch of coast to fish for locals but as a fisherman myself I see nothing there that would attract me to drive an hour+ from south of the river to get there. Plenty of good spots down around Cockburn, south to Mandurah etc that would be equal to this section.

I think there are too many things from old threads that people posted as theories that are now treated as facts without a source. For instance I see no proof the accused was a keen fisherman other than 1 media report that said he used to go crabbing with his dad at the holiday house. From my point of view, a lot of people go crabbing and doesn’t necessarily make them avid fisherman. I think too much has been made of this connection. Just my thoughts


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Hi Kambo, Thanks for your thoughts. I posted this link that was from a forum the day CG was discovered and it contained a quote from MSM about locals saying Pipidinny Road was a "busy road with traffic at all hours of the day and night" I took this to mean people going in and out fishing at that spot, not that hundreds of cars were going down it as a main road, just that you'd never know when a car would turn up there to do a bit of fishing early hours? I didn't say that the accused was an avid fisherman, I have no idea if he was or wasn't, just that this particular area was a popular fishing spot. Hope that explains my reasoning? I should have provided the link to my actual post again, but I thought as it was only a couple of pages back I didn't need to. My original post was #1038.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.true-crime/Mz6NxHT2reg

 

[Annalise]

Thanks Annalise. I have never thought about that possibility. However you are right. There isn't any way to confirm the girls were dumped the nights/early mornings they were abducted. It makes me think how much really is possible and how little we know at present.

I too share the same idea that Sarah may have been buried at KK. Just recently a friend and I parked along Government Rd and walked past the cemetery along Loch St quite late at night. Yes it is eerily quiet and I think it is possible occupants of surrounding houses, or dogs even, would hear screams or commotion etc on the outskirts but once deep into cemetery with the victims possibly gagged or maimed, I think it would be quite easy for someone to enter, carry out sick crimes and leave without drawing attention to themselves with the option of returning at a later date. MOO ofcourse.

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Marylouise911 - a lot of sleuthers don’t agree about the girls being held captive. Apparently WAPOL said they were killed at the site (can’t find reference). Going by their rate of decomposition and the elements. Wish I had details of this. Also why were the girls not buried. That interests me. Did CSK want them to be found?

With regards SS I think he did see how easy it was to commit the previous rape in the Cemetary and as you said felt confident to use it again. This time I feel he organised somewhere to bury her beforehand. There have been a couple of people believe they have seen alleged killer at Karrakatta Cemetary over the years. Perhaps he was visiting SS. MOO


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[Spinnaker]

Marylouise911 - a lot of sleuthers don’t agree about the girls being held captive. Apparently WAPOL said they were killed at the site (can’t find reference). Going by their rate of decomposition and the elements. Wish I had details of this. Also why were the girls not buried. That interests me. Did CSK want them to be found?

With regards SS I think he did see how easy it was to commit the previous rape in the Cemetary and as you said felt confident to use it again. This time I feel he organised somewhere to bury her beforehand. There have been a couple of people believe they have seen alleged killer at Karrakatta Cemetary over the years. Perhaps he was visiting SS. MOO


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It was mentioned during the first court appearance that girls were killed on site - so there will be articles and mention of this on WS at that time.

 

[Kambo]

Hi Kambo, Thanks for your thoughts. I posted this link that was from a forum the day CG was discovered and it contained a quote from MSM about locals saying Pipidinny Road was a "busy road with traffic at all hours of the day and night" I took this to mean people going in and out fishing at that spot, not that hundreds of cars were going down it as a main road, just that you'd never know when a car would turn up there to do a bit of fishing early hours? I didn't say that the accused was an avid fisherman, I have no idea if he was or wasn't, just that this particular area was a popular fishing spot. Hope that explains my reasoning? I should have provided the link to my actual post again, but I thought as it was only a couple of pages back I didn't need to. My original post was #1038.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.true-crime/Mz6NxHT2reg

Thanks Lamp - criticism wasn’t directed at you. More so the people that take a snippet of information and run with it and post wild theories. Then a month or two later revisit those theories and discuss as if they are facts that were previously determined.

Thanks for the links. Still seems an odd comment to me.


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[lampformypath]

Thanks Lamp - criticism wasn’t directed at you. More so the people that take a snippet of information and run with it and post wild theories. Then a month or two later revisit those theories and discuss as if they are facts that were previously determined.

Thanks for the links. Still seems an odd comment to me.


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No offense taken Kambo. I agree about running with stuff that hasn't been substantiated. And yes, it is an odd comment, that's why I posted it as it was taken from a forum that was at the exact time CG was found, so very current and from people who lived in the area. One of those things that make you go hmmm....

 

[Jackman]

Can someone post a link to where “locals” said Pipidinny road was a busy road back in 1997. It’s not even a busy road now and still has no houses around it. From my recollection parts of it were unsealed at the time. It might have been a popular stretch of coast to fish for locals but as a fisherman myself I see nothing there that would attract me to drive an hour+ from south of the river to get there. Plenty of good spots down around Cockburn, south to Mandurah etc that would be equal to this section.

I think there are too many things from old threads that people posted as theories that are now treated as facts without a source. For instance I see no proof the accused was a keen fisherman other than 1 media report that said he used to go crabbing with his dad at the holiday house. From my point of view, a lot of people go crabbing and doesn’t necessarily make them avid fisherman. I think too much has been made of this connection. Just my thoughts

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All good points - Cockburn being closer. There's probably no good reason to go to Pipidinny Rd. The accused may not have gone fishing. The family had the Madora Bay home too, which is near the beach - a much more ideal fishing spot.

 

[lampformypath]

Marylouise911 - a lot of sleuthers don’t agree about the girls being held captive. Apparently WAPOL said they were killed at the site (can’t find reference). Going by their rate of decomposition and the elements. Wish I had details of this. Also why were the girls not buried. That interests me. Did CSK want them to be found?

With regards SS I think he did see how easy it was to commit the previous rape in the Cemetary and as you said felt confident to use it again. This time I feel he organised somewhere to bury her beforehand. There have been a couple of people believe they have seen alleged killer at Karrakatta Cemetary over the years. Perhaps he was visiting SS. MOO


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Hi Annalise, your idea of the girls being held somewhere for a period of time is entirely possible. I remember reading about the insistence by a certain Dr from the Perth hills, that CG was being held in a house where rituals were being performed (as told to him by a patient)?
"The Devil's Garden" Chapter 22 Page 77. This Dr went to CG's colleague NF and told him about it and also WAPOL.

I found this transcript and video of Paul Ferguson, of course he being the original head of the Macro Taskforce, and in this excerpt he says about CG being carried down a slope and her body being "just dumped", the fact that he thought the CSK was "arrogant" and "wanted the body found". I'm still looking for the interview/s that say police thought the girls were killed at the dump sites, but I think it's good to look back at these initial thoughts of the first cops on the scene, especially very experienced ones like Paul Ferguson would appear to have be?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/transcript-catching-the-claremont-killer-28471453.html

 

[petedavo.au]

Just had another look at the Claremont Ghost Videos. I still reckon they are just rubbish

Or a deliberate rouse to obfuscate and lead people astray, whilst having a chuckle at their expense. Can you dump the metafile data on here so that I can have a crack at determining the real provenance of the videos? I can walk you through the process, although most programs like http://www.exifpro.com are pretty well self explanatory. I'm particularly interested to see if an originating IP address was captured, Camera details and editing software details. If you prefer to, dropbox the original files instead and I'll see if any of the metadata can prove that they're bogus.

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[Annalise]

Hi Annalise, your idea of the girls being held somewhere for a period of time is entirely possible. I remember reading about the insistence by a certain Dr from the Perth hills, that CG was being held in a house where rituals were being performed (as told to him by a patient)?
"The Devil's Garden" Chapter 22 Page 77. This Dr went to CG's colleague NF and told him about it and also WAPOL.

I found this transcript and video of Paul Ferguson, of course he being the original head of the Macro Taskforce, and in this excerpt he says about CG being carried down a slope and her body being "just dumped", the fact that he thought the CSK was "arrogant" and "wanted the body found". I'm still looking for the interview/s that say police thought the girls were killed at the dump sites, but I think it's good to look back at these initial thoughts of the first cops on the scene, especially very experienced ones like Paul Ferguson would appear to have be?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/transcript-catching-the-claremont-killer-28471453.html

Hi Lampformypath - yes I’m still looking for comments by WALPOL re: JR and CG being killed at the dumpsites[emoji102]

Thanks for the Ferguson interview. That poor man - imagine how he must have felt when he was given the flick for Caporn to take his place. Caporn has a lot to answer for. MOO


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[Spinnaker]

Hi Lampformypath - yes I’m still looking for comments by WALPOL re: JR and CG being killed at the dumpsites[emoji102]

Thanks for the Ferguson interview. That poor man - imagine how he must have felt when he was given the flick for Caporn to take his place. Caporn has a lot to answer for. MOO


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Attached article mentions the following:

"Charges for the murder of Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon allege that the two young western suburbs women were murdered at Wellard and Eglinton. This is the first time it has been suggested they had been killed where there bodies were found."

link below also:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...K-1996-97-Perth-WA-13&p=13275341#post13275341

I am pretty sure that the Coroner can determine the location in which the girls were sadly murdered.

 

[janwa]

It was mentioned during the first court appearance that girls were killed on site - so there will be articles and mention of this on WS at that time.

It was also reported that police believed the bodies of Ciara and Jane were dumped soon after they were abducted from the Claremont nightclub ...

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ons-death-ng-b80af943b3f4b839a9956cdffd1aa3ab

 

[Jackman]

Perhaps both JR and CGs D-sites were familiar to the CSK
* Woolcoot Rd, Wellard on route to Madora Bay.
* Pipidinny Rd, on route for fishing.
Can always stop by and do whatever (thinking about the Rowe Park pervert). My thoughts are the Rowe Park pervert was the CSK.
D-sites chosen for future convenience.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj-tviMyuPaAhXIUrwKHTRfAf04ChAWCCswAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F292980481%2FPOST-Newspaper-for-12th-of-December-2015&usg=AOvVaw0DOAMfF-2twK2NDny7fi8k

Can someone post a link to where “locals” said Pipidinny road was a busy road back in 1997. It’s not even a busy road now and still has no houses around it. From my recollection parts of it were unsealed at the time. It might have been a popular stretch of coast to fish for locals but as a fisherman myself I see nothing there that would attract me to drive an hour+ from south of the river to get there. Plenty of good spots down around Cockburn, south to Mandurah etc that would be equal to this section.

I think there are too many things from old threads that people posted as theories that are now treated as facts without a source. For instance I see no proof the accused was a keen fisherman other than 1 media report that said he used to go crabbing with his dad at the holiday house. From my point of view, a lot of people go crabbing and doesn’t necessarily make them avid fisherman. I think too much has been made of this connection. Just my thoughts

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Regarding my recent post about the two d-sites being chosen for future convenience – that theory is incorrect.

As Kambo pointed out it’s never been substantiated that the accused goes fishing at all. Also, the accused wouldn’t need to travel such a distance because there are suitable fishing spots closer to where he was living at the time.

Therefore it’s back to the drawing board for me!

 

[Spinnaker]

It was also reported that police believed the bodies of Ciara and Jane were dumped soon after they were abducted from the Claremont nightclub ...

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ons-death-ng-b80af943b3f4b839a9956cdffd1aa3ab

I would imagine that the Coroner has ascertained that JR & CG were murdered not long after abduction from forensics and time of death - therefore evidence to suggest that JR & CG were taken to murder site in a short timeframe.

Scientific facts to exclude other theories of lengthy periods of abduction.

 

[Annalise]

I would imagine that they have ascertained that JR & CG were murdered not long after abduction from forensics and time of death - therefore evidence to suggest that JR & CG were taken to murder site in a short timeframe, scientific facts.

Thanks Spinnaker - I always wondered why WAPOL put out the statement about the girls being killed same night. It wasn’t explained how they came to that conclusion (as if the public would be told anyway[emoji53]). It will be very interesting to hear what comes out in the trial.

Thanks again for the information Spinnaker - will have to leave this alone for now[emoji850] MOO


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[Spinnaker]

Thanks Spinnaker - I always wondered why WAPOL put out the statement about the girls being killed same night. It wasn’t explained how they came to that conclusion (as if the public would be told anyway[emoji53]). It will be very interesting to hear what comes out in the trial.

Thanks again for the information Spinnaker - will have to leave this alone for now[emoji850] MOO


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Very happy to leave it - just posted the article to substantiate that WAPOL and prosecution are alleging that JR and CG were murdered at the sites where they were found.

There seemed a lot of confusion and stories being fabricated based on personal opinion and wild imaginations - contrary to what the prosecution believe occurred.

Given prosecution are alleging murder took place at Eglinton and Wellard, perhaps we should start referring to sites as Murder sites as opposed to dump sites. Just a thought.


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[lampformypath]

Hi Lampformypath - yes I’m still looking for comments by WALPOL re: JR and CG being killed at the dumpsites[emoji102]

Thanks for the Ferguson interview. That poor man - imagine how he must have felt when he was given the flick for Caporn to take his place. Caporn has a lot to answer for. MOO


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Agreed about Caporn, lots of "politics" in the WAPOL, say no more! Anyway, I'll keep looking for the dumpsite information too. It's weird as I just keep reading on forums that people "seem to remember" hearing or seeing it written somewhere about the girls being killed at the dumpsites, and even that they were killed soon after near Claremont, but I haven't seen an actual MSM link/s to confirm any of this? Onward.....

 

[lampformypath]

Attached article mentions the following:

"Charges for the murder of Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon allege that the two young western suburbs women were murdered at Wellard and Eglinton. This is the first time it has been suggested they had been killed where there bodies were found."

link below also:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...K-1996-97-Perth-WA-13&p=13275341#post13275341

I am pretty sure that the Coroner can determine the location in which the girls were sadly murdered.

Thanks so much Spinnaker!