Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[papertrail]

I tried to confirm this some time back and could not find articles with incarceration dates that would exclude him.

Papertrail did link a few detailed articles, but they did not exclude him. Going off memory alone, the articles indicated his incarnation dates were 'unknown' or police had not been able to verify them for their own records...I know that doesn't make sense.

If anyone has exact dates, post them and let's get DM off the table for good.

Have been through all this before; getting very tiresome -- the articles did not exclude him -- see below. Police would have no issues confirming incarceration dates for their own purpose however it is very difficult getting release dates out of authorities.

If you go to the Supreme Court of WA's website, choose 'judgements' from lefthand side, after page loads, in search box (top righthand side) search for 'morey'. you will see 4 files near the top of files. Ignore the top (Wheatley) file.

These 4 files relate to the 2 x ARMED robbery offences committed in 1989 -- you will see some relevant details and dates of incarceration.

Then to try and figure out when he was released after serving his FULL sentence for the above crimes, go the the coroners inquest findings document at http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Mcmahon_finding.pdf. In this document the coroner details that Sarah McMahon had met him 2 years prior to her disappearance -- she was last seen on 8 November 2000; hence 2 years beforehand would be November 1998. So we know for sure he was released before November 1998 but it is more likely a little before then. Lisa Brown another Highgate streetworker was last seen on 10 November 1998 and she was a friend of the un-named female in the below case. She was also a friend of Darrylyn Ugle, another Highgate streetworker who vanished on 25 March 2003. Her remains were found on a charred stump in Farrell Grove Picnic Ground Mundaring Weir; adjacent to the toilet public.

Then on the same page you view the above 4 files on, further down the page you will see 2 further files dates August 2006 and May 2007. These files are relative to the outcome of appeal re his conviction for the attempted murder of the un-named Highgate streetworker on 12/12/2003.

The sexual deviant with gun under seat and knows the Eglinton area well; his father (before death) and mother-in-law (at time of attempted murder) lived in 2rocks - mentioned in trial transcripts re mother-in-law's testimony -- see below details.

Further detail about this attempted murder can be found at austlii.edu.au. In the main search engine put in 'donald victor morey' and 3 files will come up a little down the page. These files relate to the attempted murder mentioned above. In that you will see reference to the name of his mother-in-law CXXXX Matusevich. If you do some google digging using 'donald victor matusevich' some very interesting information comes up regarding previous convictions.

I think he is the guy that Bayens was referring to re the lined boot - this Bayens taskforce event occurred in 2002. They had Morey's DNA back then because it was taken after Sarah McMahon's disappearance in 2000 and I think that is why the Claremont taskforce chief Caporn ignored Bayens' protestations about him.

Rope ligature was used with Darrylyn Ugle and during the attempted murder of streetworker. Rope was also found in his 'kit' bag and is mentioned in the coroner's inquest findings document. His criminal history goes as far back as when he was a mere 12yo in South Australia. He has committed (convicted) armed robberies, burglaries, arson and attempted murder. He was in jail in Queensland (Palen Creek) at the time Julie Cutler disappeared. All of this information is available on the internet.

 

[JMC44]

Parkie, you may want to check out the new crimestoppers webpage. See who Crimestoppers partners with. (Down the bottom)


It may be of interest to all, that Sarah Spiers is no longer on the missing persons' page but is now listed along side Ciara and Jane as a “Suspicious Death”

https://www.crimestopperswa.com.au/

When are you suggesting such a change in the status of Sarah Spiers on the website occurred? Recently? Such a change would be deliberate - what could prompt it?

 

[J35]

Such a change would be deliberate - what could prompt it?

Surely to change a Missing Person status from Missing to Suspicious Murder you need either:
A) a body
B) direct evidence to suggest murder despite no body being found

Surely they can't change it just because it's been 20 years and that they strongly suspect she was the first victim of CSK....

 

[MyLeftFoot]

When are you suggesting such a change in the status of Sarah Spiers on the website occurred? Recently? Such a change would be deliberate - what could prompt it?

I'd say it's been changed very recently but obviously can't tell you exactly JMC44.
I think J35's explanation probably covers the reason why. It does look hopeful doesn't it, especially with the flurry of press activity but I guess we'll never know for sure until the police themselves confirm something.

It worries me that even if they catch the offender, he may not divulge Sarah's location. I bet you guys could figure out a way of getting him to speak!

 

[J35]

It worries me that even if they catch the offender, he may not divulge Sarah's location.

This is more of a discussion for when the offender is caught but will come down to a few points:
Self preservation
Ego

Ego: depends if the offender wants 'credit' for all three, depends if he wants the family to go on without closure etc

Self preservation: time in prison for 2 vs 3 murders; hold out for plea-bargain etc

He could be like David Bernie and just spit out everything, who knows, it will show his character though

 

[JMC44]

What are people's views on whether the CSK is someone who has been even slightly suspected publicly of these crimes, or whether it is someone that has not been discussed on this or other forums. For me, I think the odds would be pretty much even: 1.90 we have discussed him, 1.90 we haven't.

 

[aim2solve]

The personal affairs on this thread are sporadic yet irritating.

While brainstorming can be very helpful in generating new avenues of questions, bringing in new information into the discussion is the most useful form of inquiry. May I suggest a few items for focus:

Connected Crimes: If you can get access to newspaper records or other sources, find something that you think relates to the Claremont Crimes. Think of thefts, sexual attacks, lewd acts, alcohol related offences, assaults or damage. Look at where these crimes were committed and when.

Correlational Research: Overwhelmingly, the research suggests that the offender did not reside or have an anchor in the Claremont area (due to the close proximity of the abductions). It was either a workplace or an area of significance for the offender. What places in or near Claremont would bring such a person into the area, and what connection may this (or these) workplaces have with the disposal sites?

Existing Witnesses: All forum members should be discretely inquiring and prompting all Claremont area patrons during the era to reveal information of what they encountered when enjoying nights out. It could be as insignificant as seeing someone waiting in a vehicle down a side street that may offer a key to solve these crimes.

Geographical Profiling: Each of the areas involved in these crimes had some degree of significance. What is also significant is the degree of effort the offender went into to hide his home location in that the disposal sites were so far away from the offending area.

Interval and Phase Profiling: The dates that the offenses occurred do have significance for the offender. Opportunistic or not, the dates and times show when the offender was available, had abundant energy and drive, was not bound by constraints, thought of the area as most fruitful in terms of victims and thought of the area as the least enforced by Police. What significance did these times and dates have to the offender’s own lifestyle?

Offer your opinions and observations, but please leave the personal issues to personal messages where they belong!

AIM2SOLVE

 

[papertrail]

<modsnip>

I have posted my SOURCE many times; and that being documents past to me by my deceased friend's family. For those of you that are interested, my friend undertook many various challenges in his life and one of those challenges involved him being very curious about deaths at Graylands Psychiatic Hospital and assisting family members and friends.

Re RZ the information I posted is listed on a one sheet hospital ward admission form. I am unable to post any part of the form in public view due to legal issues.

Sutton; I posted NOTHING about a FULL wig of human hair. There is nothing ludicrous about an offender wearing a wig in order to obscure identity.

 

[papertrail]

When are you suggesting such a change in the status of Sarah Spiers on the website occurred? Recently? Such a change would be deliberate - what could prompt it?

Yes I too noticed that recently; if you check out the dates that show under the missing persons' name, in many cases the date is not the date the person went missing / last sighted. Out of the 11 missing persons now listed as 'suspicious deaths' 6 have the date 31 Jan 2011 which has no relevance to their last sighting. I also note that 2011 is the year that Bret Christian detailed the 55 forensic-lift tapes (re Jane Rimmer's scene) were re-discovered.

 

[papertrail]

Yes I too noticed that recently; if you check out the dates that show under the missing persons' name, in many cases the date is not the date the person went missing / last sighted. Out of the 11 missing persons now listed as 'suspicious deaths' 6 have the date 31 Jan 2011 which has no relevance to their last sighting. I also note that 2011 is the year that Bret Christian detailed the 55 forensic-lift tapes (re Jane Rimmer's scene) were re-discovered.

Under the 'murder' tab on the WA police Crimestoppers website, there are 3 items. 1. 'Claremont Murders' with the date 9 Jan 2012, 'Jane Rimmer' with the date 31 Jan 2011 and 'Ciara Glennon' 31 Jan 2011.

 

[papertrail]

Yes I too noticed that recently; if you check out the dates that show under the missing persons' name, in many cases the date is not the date the person went missing / last sighted. Out of the 11 missing persons now listed as 'suspicious deaths' 6 have the date 31 Jan 2011 which has no relevance to their last sighting. I also note that 2011 is the year that Bret Christian detailed the 55 forensic-lift tapes (re Jane Rimmer's scene) were re-discovered.

Under the 'murder' tab on the WA police Crimestoppers website, there are 3 items. 1. 'Claremont Murders' with the date 9 Jan 2012, 'Jane Rimmer' with the date 31 Jan 2011 and 'Ciara Glennon' 31 Jan 2011.

Under the 'missing persons' tab there are numerous names listed with a date relevant to 2012.

Some re-sorting of case files has definitely been going on.

 

[Bartholemeus]

DNA

Article 1

An incomplete DNA profile can be compared with a complete DNA profile, but the evidence offered by an incomplete DNA profile comparison will not be as strong as the evidence offered by comparison of two complete DNA profiles. An incomplete DNA profile will match a larger proportion of the population compared with a complete DNA profile - just as many people will hold a lottery ticket matching one or two numbers in the national lottery draw, but only a few people or a single person will hold a ticket matching all six numbers.

http://www.forensic-science.co.uk/partial.html

Article 2

This is how US NDIS and CODIS work;

Each database has its own rules regarding the number of STR markers that
must be present for the profile to be uploaded. The National DNA Index
System (NDIS) requires that 13 autosomal STR markers be tested (with
more loci expected in the future), and the profile must contain information
for at least 10 loci. The requirements are less stringent for state and local
databases. States require the profile to have information for seven or more
loci, and the local database requires at least four loci to be present to be
uploaded.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/SimplifiedGuideDNA.pdf (Page 13)

Their systems have different settings as to what it will accept as ain input DNA reading. I wonder how strict the paramters are on the AU DNA database?

Article 3

Partial DNA matches are not searches themselves, but are the result of moderate stringency CODIS searches that produce a potential match that shares at least one allele at every locus.[39] Partial matching does not involve the use of familial search software, such as those used in the UK and United States, or additional Y-STR analysis, and therefore often misses sibling relationships. Partial matching has been used to identify suspects in several cases in the UK and United States,[40] and has also been used as a tool to exonerate the falsely accused. Darryl Hunt was wrongly convicted in connection with the rape and murder of a young woman in 1984 in North Carolina.[41] Hunt was exonerated in 2004 when a DNA database search produced a remarkably close match between a convicted felon and the forensic profile from the case. The partial match led investigators to the felon&#8217;s brother, Willard E. Brown, who confessed to the crime when confronted by police. A judge then signed an order to dismiss the case against Hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

Article 4

Criminals who inadvertently leave traces of their DNA at the crime scene now have something more to worry about. By isolating 24 genetic variants, researchers have developed a computer program that can construct surprisingly accurate 3D models of facial features.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/now-police-can-reconstruct-your-face-from-dna-evidence-1548919011



Google searches consistently suggest;

- partial DNA can rule someone out
- partial DNA can rule someone in (to a pool of suspects)
- To make a match you pretty much have to have a full DNA profile
- If you have a full DNA profile you can use this to get a pretty accurate description of what the person looks like

Therefore we can extrapolate;

1. BC clearly said that there is a DNA link between CSK and CG. Therefore he is saying they have a full DNA profile
2. Therefore they are able to determine such things as facial structure, hair colour, eye colour etc.

They've allegedly had DNA for 7 years. AFAIK they have a $1m reward. So surely with a case of this profile they would get the CSK's face reconstructed?

Why has this case not been solved?

</still suspicious of claim that Macro have DNA profile>

 

[papertrail]

This is an ABC interview and contains a lot of information I was not aware of.

One particular piece of information that Una shared, was that Ciara and her work friends were offered a lift to Claremont, by one of the partners of the firm she worked with. ~"Friday of her first week back at work there were drinks in the office after work for the staff and she attended those drinks and she left the office with some friends, one of the partners of the law firm offered them a lift as far as Claremont and she availed of that, that was just about ten minutes from her home"
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/spiritofthings/una-glennons-story/3504728#transcript

One of the newspaper reports (West Australian monday 24 March 1997 p5) immediately after Ciara had disappeared and detailing the CG re-enactment video, stated that Ciara and her friends had arrived at Claremont in a white HoldenBarina -- which is a very very small vehicle and not one I would think a (male) partner in a prestigious law firm would be driving. Could this be the same partner that met up with Ciara in London that is mentioned in Marshall's book; or was there another of the firm's partners out with the group on the night ? As I have said, a Barina is very very small in size - that of a 'boiled egg'; could this vehicle have been a Berlina and perhaps a stationwagon ?

Does anyone know who the partner that Una referred to is ?Another piece of information is that Ciara started back at work on the Monday prior to her disappearance, which would make it Monday 10 March 1997.I have also read somewhere that Ciara had returned to work and had been given an important project which was supposed to last for about 2 years. Does anyone know what that project was -- what it involved ?

 

[papertrail]

DNA

Article 1

An incomplete DNA profile can be compared with a complete DNA profile, but the evidence offered by an incomplete DNA profile comparison will not be as strong as the evidence offered by comparison of two complete DNA profiles. An incomplete DNA profile will match a larger proportion of the population compared with a complete DNA profile - just as many people will hold a lottery ticket matching one or two numbers in the national lottery draw, but only a few people or a single person will hold a ticket matching all six numbers.

http://www.forensic-science.co.uk/partial.html

Article 2

This is how US NDIS and CODIS work;

Each database has its own rules regarding the number of STR markers that
must be present for the profile to be uploaded. The National DNA Index
System (NDIS) requires that 13 autosomal STR markers be tested (with
more loci expected in the future), and the profile must contain information
for at least 10 loci. The requirements are less stringent for state and local
databases. States require the profile to have information for seven or more
loci, and the local database requires at least four loci to be present to be
uploaded.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/SimplifiedGuideDNA.pdf (Page 13)

Their systems have different settings as to what it will accept as ain input DNA reading. I wonder how strict the paramters are on the AU DNA database?

Article 3

Partial DNA matches are not searches themselves, but are the result of moderate stringency CODIS searches that produce a potential match that shares at least one allele at every locus.[39] Partial matching does not involve the use of familial search software, such as those used in the UK and United States, or additional Y-STR analysis, and therefore often misses sibling relationships. Partial matching has been used to identify suspects in several cases in the UK and United States,[40] and has also been used as a tool to exonerate the falsely accused. Darryl Hunt was wrongly convicted in connection with the rape and murder of a young woman in 1984 in North Carolina.[41] Hunt was exonerated in 2004 when a DNA database search produced a remarkably close match between a convicted felon and the forensic profile from the case. The partial match led investigators to the felon&#8217;s brother, Willard E. Brown, who confessed to the crime when confronted by police. A judge then signed an order to dismiss the case against Hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

Article 4

Criminals who inadvertently leave traces of their DNA at the crime scene now have something more to worry about. By isolating 24 genetic variants, researchers have developed a computer program that can construct surprisingly accurate 3D models of facial features.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/now-police-can-reconstruct-your-face-from-dna-evidence-1548919011



Google searches consistently suggest;

- partial DNA can rule someone out
- partial DNA can rule someone in (to a pool of suspects)
- To make a match you pretty much have to have a full DNA profile
- If you have a full DNA profile you can use this to get a pretty accurate description of what the person looks like

Therefore we can extrapolate;

1. BC clearly said that there is a DNA link between CSK and CG. Therefore he is saying they have a full DNA profile
2. Therefore they are able to determine such things as facial structure, hair colour, eye colour etc.

They've allegedly had DNA for 7 years. AFAIK they have a $1m reward. So surely with a case of this profile they would get the CSK's face reconstructed?

Why has this case not been solved?

</still suspicious of claim that Macro have DNA profile>

Does "he left his DNA on the body of..." as written by Bret Christian, actually indicate they (police) have a partial or full DNA sample, or that the sample police have (that is if they do have one) they have been able to obtain enough of a match to be able to hone in on race, physical characteristics etc.

Also interesting in the Mark Webster article is this little line on pg2 "substances such as dirt or textile dyes contaminating the DNA interfere with the DNA profiling"

We know there is some link with ink / screen printing.

You know, I reckon the DNA (if they have it) has been left on bindings used on the girls - we know the Rowe Park girl was bound, and perhaps binding was used on CG.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Does "he left his DNA on the body of..." as written by Bret Christian, actually indicate they (police) have a partial or full DNA sample, or that the sample police have (that is if they do have one) they have been able to obtain enough of a match to be able to hone in on race, physical characteristics etc.

I don't know but BC said this in The Post on Dec 5 2015;

Importantly, he left his DNA on the body of the 1997 victim, Ciara Glennon, traces that police have now matched to a teenager&#8217;s late-night abduction in Claremont and rape in Karrakatta cemetery in February 1995 (&#8220;Fourth serial killer victim&#8221;, POST, October 17).

I'm unclear on how much a profile is need to be able to say there is a match? But I'd assume there'd have to be a complete or almost complete profile.

Maybe some DNA buffs on here can clarify?

 

[Sutton]

Papertrail

Thanks for posting your source/explaining why you are unable to post the actual document.

 

[Sutton]

...I'm unclear on how much a profile is need to be able to say there is a match? But I'd assume there'd have to be a complete or almost complete profile.

Maybe some DNA buffs on here can clarify?

Snipped. I'm not a DNA buff, but I do think CODIS can be searched for only one matching locus. This document instructs the forensic scientist on how to do a keyboard search, with parameters of what stringency must be used, how many loci must match, and how many mismatches are allowed (example on page 16). These are all variable inputs, indicating any number could be input for the matches and mismatches.

That's my understanding of it, based on watching a bunch of Cold Case Files and scanning the document.

I saw Google hits that explained why partial matches have not been used to search for familial matches, but one DNA document a week is all I can handle. The subject seems relevant as to why police have recently started doing familial searches.

http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/183aa47b-4b50-4af9-8c56-e3fb7e4b131d/CODIS-04-18-2014.aspx

 

[Sutton]

What are people's views on whether the CSK is someone who has been even slightly suspected publicly of these crimes, or whether it is someone that has not been discussed on this or other forums. For me, I think the odds would be pretty much even: 1.90 we have discussed him, 1.90 we haven't.

I go back and forth. I think police have talked to him, maybe as a serious suspect, or maybe just briefly. I probably lean towards he has been publicly suspected, but I can't give the odds.

What about finding Sarah? Does anyone think the killer intended for her to be found, but she wasn't? Or did he intentionally hide her so well bc he never wanted her found?

 

[J35]

I'm unclear on how much a profile is need to be able to say there is a match? But I'd assume there'd have to be a complete or almost complete profile.

Maybe some DNA buffs on here can clarify?

Depends on the number of matching loci, the STR profiler used, the probability statistic of each loci and the overall cumulative probability of the matching loci (it has to be statistically significant for the given population genetics).

 

[88mph]

I go back and forth. I think police have talked to him, maybe as a serious suspect, or maybe just briefly. I probably lean towards he has been publicly suspected, but I can't give the odds.

What about finding Sarah? Does anyone think the killer intended for her to be found, but she wasn't? Or did he intentionally hide her so well bc he never wanted her found?

My gut says SS was an accident and as such he hid her more thoroughly - burried her.

The next two were intentional kills.