Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Parkie]

Funny thing is Elastic I am not Claremont Ghost & I did not upload those vids to You Tube. Maybe hire a psychic & fly him to Perth to solve the Claremont Cul De Sac Murders as I keep referring them to. Just don`t forget to pay the psychic this time for fees and airfare BEFORE HIRING THEM, FFS. Oh yes, He was going to find SS in Yanchep as you reconed. You get the $250,000 Reward then you`d pay for his fees & airfare. Funny thing it doesn`t work like that Elasticity. Friggin heck.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Elastic, what agreement did you have with the psychic? I probably wouldnt pay a psychic if it tuens out they weren't psychic. Of course i would have known before hand and not hired them.

 

[CSK?]

Wouldn't the 'psychic' know beforehand that there would be no payment? or is the power of psychic ability selective?

 

[Sutton]

Ummmm, just because the police investigate something does not mean they beleive they are linked...

RSBM. Of course an investigation doesn't mean they are linked. No one implied that, in any way.

The Post reported that police had linked the videos to the Claremont killings and that's what I took it to mean. If you want to take it another way, go right ahead.

 

[Sutton]

My research re LW shows his parents were actually from country regions so perhaps there was a gun in their household and perhaps it was he who had the gun under the seat. I think he was described as a sexual deviant at some stage...

RSBM. The fact that LW's parents may have owned a gun seems like a giant leap to me, but who knows? Maybe LW was the other suspect mentioned in the CIA program. However, he's now been cleared, so that means the martial artist is the only remaining suspect from the show.

 

[Parkie]

I want to bring something up. Someone asked me to tbh as I normally don`t go down this avenue.
Since the police investigation is going nowhere. The Iona Priest & the Iona Gardener? The girls may have recognised someone from the school (church) that they knew. Two of the girls went to the school. Then there is Julie Cutler & some have mentioned Lorrin Whitehead.But I personally am dismissing Lorrin in here. I remember a case in Bellevue, Perth. There was a priest over the back fence of a lady I boarded with. I say this cause you never know with a school official you`d normally trust to the max. There Ian Moone, it is out there.

 

[papertrail]

just re-watched the CIA documentary -- this came about because I came across a news article that had detail of a press discussion with someone that appeared on the CIA documentary. The news article is attached.

That person is George Kyme.

Then after rereading the recent article (SS anniversary article) in which the woman that found JR was interviewed. In that interview she detailed how when her family were traveling down Woolcoot Road there were a number of chickens roaming around, and that their children and pressured her husband to stop so they could catch a few. It appears that this was the main reason why the family stopped, and the flower picking was a later thought.

The George Kyme article (dated 5/4/97) contains a fair bit of detail about the guy Jason who had discovered CG's remains :
1. Kyme ran a market garden business on Bernard Road Carabooda, about 1km from the CG scene
2. Jason had worked for Kyme approximately 4 months before the CG discovery day -- that would make it he worked for Kyme in December 1996. How long for ?
3. Jason was driving his girlfriend's vehicle on the day of discovery and Kyme assumed that is why he returned to Kyme's premises to raise the alarm
4. Jason's girlfriend was working for Kyme
5. Jason was a plasterer (from Kyme's memory)

I googled Kyme's name (george kyme western australia) surprise surprise -- and found that he was also the director of a chicken hatchery located on Karoborup Road Carabooda which is about 4kms south of the market garden location and according to the online article this business was founded in 1980.

This detail prompted me to recheck some paper clips I have and in particular one clip from West Australian dated 17/3/97 (initial photocopy blackened - attached) which showed a very large strange building and I could never make out what it was. As it turns out it is a very large shed of the design that is used to house chickens in a battery (egg laying) situation.

I then located another copy of the same photo that shows WA police doing a forensic line search in Wellard and I believe this search was done on 619 Millar Road; which just happens to be the property at which JR was located (on that property's north - east boundary which is Woolcoot Road) !

I have also checked the online electoral role and it is clear that the Kyme extended family were connected to the Bernard Road market garden property, and other properties located in Wanneroo.

There are a few points that niggle me now :
1. Did employees of the Kyme market garden, also work at the Kyme chicken hatchery in Carabooda ?
2. Did Jason ever work at the chicken hatchery ?
3. Did Jason's girlfriend ever work at the chicken hatchery ?
4. Did the Kyme chicken hatchery ever supply stock to the Wellard chicken farm ?
4a?If so, did Jason ever make deliveries there ?
5. Kyme mentioned that Jason worked as a plasterer. Did Jason have access to a panel van ?
6. Why did Jason work at the market garden if he was a plasterer ?
7. Did Jason drive his girlfriend's vehicle to the site where he discovered CG ?
8. Did Jason walk to the CG discovery site? If so, why did he not drive there ?
9. Where did Jason live ?
10.Did Jason, or any of his acquaintances including his girlfriend ever attend Claremont area ?
11.Did Jason have access to a taxi ?

I have been unable to find anything that connects the Kyme business to Wellard online. But I consider the 'possible connection' between the Carabooda hatchery and the Wellard chicken farm needs to be followed up.

Is this how the two disposal sites are connected ?

Please bare with me for reposting the above chicken farm discussion - I have a good reason. When I initially posted this new discussion topic, I missed out including a vital piece of information that explained why I checked the CIA doc (Kyme interview) etc. In the recent article published at the 20th anniversary of the Claremont murders, there was an article published on Yahoo. In this article the woman that located Jane Rimmer's remains is quoted as saying a couple of important things - one of these being "The mother of three had been driving with her family along Woolcoot Road in what was then rural Wellard when the children asked if they could stop and chase chickens that had run out in front of them". And "The area was mostly bush and Tammy decided to pick arum lilies — better known as death lilies — that were growing wild along the limestone road’s edge" and "She had picked two when a giant flower twice the size of any others caught her eye, leading her off the road and a few metres into the scrub for a closer look. It was then Tammy suddenly realised she was not alone."

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30647541/jane-rimmer-terrible-discovery-etched-in-the-mind/

Therefore there is a little more to the discovery story that was previously published in news articles and included in the CIA documentary. When I read the 'chicken' part of the story it niggled in my mind; so that is why I did the followup.

Explanation:

I have checked and there was no large chicken / battery building located at Palmerston Farm. The farm is so named because they grow vegetables.

Also re the 'incorrect' news caption of photo published in March 1997. The original photos of the chicken battery building as published after Jane Rimmer's remains discovery and the accompanying news article included a brief discussion about WA police searching Palmerston Farm, BUT this photo was captioned "police hunt for clues". I consider when the photo was re-used in 1997 it was captioned in error to reference Palmerston Farm. Landgate aerial photos show a couple of large long rectangular buildings at 619 Millar Road that appear to match the size of the chicken battery building on the western side of that property.

 

[papertrail]

Further to my post re reasons for JR and CG not being buried due to high rainfall / wetlands locations -- the offender considered any DNA or other forensic evidence would have been washed away. This is different for Sarah Spiers.

As everyone is aware, she disappeared on the 27 January 1996. Weather data obtained via the Bureau of Meterology WA verifies there was NO rainfall in Perth Metro for the period 1st January 1996 until 30th January when there was 3.2mm collected and that is the TOTAL for January 1996.

It is possible she is buried.

Here is the link to the rainfall data for the whole of 1996 which also shows zilch rainfall for February 1996. Data for June 1996 shows 221.4mm, July 210.8mm, August 9.8mm (up to the 3 August - JR discovery day) . I've attached the 1996 year rainfall data. Separate data for 1997 in next message. Interesting (to me) to note that on each of the abduction dates (including Rowe Park February 1995) there was no rainfall recorded.

http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=136&p_display_type=dailyDataFile&p_startYear=1996&p_c=-17019897&p_stn_num=009225

 

[papertrail]

1997 rainfall data

 

[papertrail]

1995 rainfall data

 

[papertrail]

temperature data full year by month - 1995 1996 1997. 3 separate files attached

 

[papertrail]

I want to bring something up. Someone asked me to tbh as I normally don`t go down this avenue.

Are you saying you're not normally honest ? Bless you my child if you have sinned.

 

[papertrail]

For all you doubting thomas's, the reference to the Claremont prostitute is attached - I've circled the relevant paragraphs in the article. Re-reading the article it appears the reference to Claremont is possibly where the girl lived with her parents and is to where LW had stalked her to -- not only stalking her to her private home, but knocking on the door with one of her parents answering the door ! The 'stalking' bit is not in the article but is written about in Marshall's book.

If you then match up what is detailed in this article. to what Marshall (in the book) detailed about LW's visits to brothels. Can't find my note re what page in the book; if someone knows can they please post it. I am sure I detailed the page number previously.

 

[papertrail]

A contributor has recently asked via PM, for me to supply the news article that detailed the physical attributes of the Rowe Park / Karrakatta rapist. Found finally. I've attempted to upload the complete article but WS system will not let it go through due to size. I tried to snip the article smaller still would not upload. So I've snipped the relevant couple of paragraphs, newspaper date and page info and headline - 3 separate files attached. I couldn't figure out how to upload using PM.

Re another contributor's comment that it would be nigh impossible for the height description to be given, if the victim did not 'see' the offender. In many cases, the police experts and rape victim support workers will talk a victim through various things to try and ascertain body build and height. The approximate height can oftentimes be figured out by what the victim is able to describe. The news articles detailed the victim was bashed so this may have occurred prior to or at the time of blind folding. She may have gotten a glimpse of him. The victim's height would also be taken into account by the experts to work out height details.

Again TOO tall for the MAP. I also do not consider a MAP would 'bash' a victim -- there are a multitude of MA control methods that could be used.

 

[papertrail]

in the west today a 49yr old malaysian national is due to arrive in perth this afternoon to face charges over alleged serious sexual assault on a woman in 1996
he was a student at the time, the attack happend in her scarborough villa were he broke in he raped and unlawfully wounded her ,the man was identified during a review of the case by wa state crime operations squad using advancement in forensic technology
wonder what else this blow in got up to?

Here's a link to an article that gives the date the rape occurred - 9 March 1996 in Dover Street Scarborough ! The WA police should be congratulated. It would have to be DNA wouldn't it that got this perp ?

I wonder if this perp was around Claremont as well ??? Could he have been a uni student - article mentions he was studying ? This monster was studying in the AVIATION industry. Does anyone have any ideas where that would have occurred ? see 2nd link below . If he was studying for a pilot license, he would know all about mapping. and would be right into figures.

http://www.communitynews.com.au/news/Alleged-attacker-arrested-after-violent-Scarborough-cold-case-re-opened/7682357
[url]https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30807257/man-accused-over-1996-sex-assault/

[/URL]
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[CSK?]

Hi papertrail, interesting articles, Now I'm not having a dig I just want to know in your mind what is so suspicious about chickens being seen near to the dump site of 1 victim? It is highly possible they are escapee's from a chicken farm from miles away whom just happened to be roaming free in that specific area.

As for the posts regarding DNA and the rainfall e.t.c if your theory is correct then we would be looking for a very smart criminal, DNA testing was still in it's infancy at this stage (having being developed in 1986 with significant progress being made in the late 1990's) to not just understand the consequences of DNA but to then know that leaving the body to be exposed to such extreme conditions as to render that DNA useless to me seems advanced thinking for someone at the time (now days the average person knows a lot more about DNA than they did back then)

I personally can't accept that he was sloppy enough to leave so much evidence in the Karrakatta rape case but evolve into a 'crime scene anti evidence recovery expert' with enough foresight to check upcoming weather patterns and the like. I personally feel either SS was hidden with more care, or that she meant something to him in some way or that being his first kill he felt possessive of her and wanted to keep her body all to himself (Gary ridgeway would move specific bodies around that he didn't want found when police were finding his dump sites, other bodies he didn't care if found.) I honestly think this guy just got lucky with the rainfalls.

If SS was his first kill then it makes sense that he would go to greater lengths to hide the body out of fear of being caught and slowly losing that fear as his confidence grew as a killer. OR her body would be laying some where out in the open like the rest in a location that has yet to be discovered.

 

[papertrail]

Hi papertrail, interesting articles, Now I'm not having a dig I just want to know in your mind what is so suspicious about chickens being seen near to the dump site of 1 victim? It is highly possible they are escapee's from a chicken farm from miles away whom just happened to be roaming free in that specific area.

As for the posts regarding DNA and the rainfall e.t.c if your theory is correct then we would be looking for a very smart criminal, DNA testing was still in it's infancy at this stage (having being developed in 1986 with significant progress being made in the late 1990's) to not just understand the consequences of DNA but to then know that leaving the body to be exposed to such extreme conditions as to render that DNA useless to me seems advanced thinking for someone at the time (now days the average person knows a lot more about DNA than they did back then)

I personally can't accept that he was sloppy enough to leave so much evidence in the Karrakatta rape case but evolve into a 'crime scene anti evidence recovery expert' with enough foresight to check upcoming weather patterns and the like. I personally feel either SS was hidden with more care, or that she meant something to him in some way or that being his first kill he felt possessive of her and wanted to keep her body all to himself (Gary ridgeway would move specific bodies around that he didn't want found when police were finding his dump sites, other bodies he didn't care if found.) I honestly think this guy just got lucky with the rainfalls.

If SS was his first kill then it makes sense that he would go to greater lengths to hide the body out of fear of being caught and slowly losing that fear as his confidence grew as a killer. OR her body would be laying some where out in the open like the rest in a location that has yet to be discovered.

Hi papertrail, interesting articles, Now I'm not having a dig I just want to know in your mind what is so suspicious about chickens being seen near to the dump site of 1 victim? It is highly possible they are escapee's from a chicken farm from miles away whom just happened to be roaming free in that specific area.

As for the posts regarding DNA and the rainfall e.t.c if your theory is correct then we would be looking for a very smart criminal, DNA testing was still in it's infancy at this stage (having being developed in 1986 with significant progress being made in the late 1990's) to not just understand the consequences of DNA but to then know that leaving the body to be exposed to such extreme conditions as to render that DNA useless to me seems advanced thinking for someone at the time (now days the average person knows a lot more about DNA than they did back then)

I personally can't accept that he was sloppy enough to leave so much evidence in the Karrakatta rape case but evolve into a 'crime scene anti evidence recovery expert' with enough foresight to check upcoming weather patterns and the like. I personally feel either SS was hidden with more care, or that she meant something to him in some way or that being his first kill he felt possessive of her and wanted to keep her body all to himself (Gary ridgeway would move specific bodies around that he didn't want found when police were finding his dump sites, other bodies he didn't care if found.) I honestly think this guy just got lucky with the rainfalls.

If SS was his first kill then it makes sense that he would go to greater lengths to hide the body out of fear of being caught and slowly losing that fear as his confidence grew as a killer. OR her body would be laying some where out in the open like the rest in a location that has yet to be discovered.

The coincidence that there was a large battery chicken establishment immediately adjacent to the Wellard disposal location, and that the Eglinton disposal site is also linked to a 'chicken hatchery' although it is a 'loose' connection it is still a coincidence that would need to be taken into account. You have to ask yourself a couple of 'what if' questions. I've done some checking, and battery chicken farms purchase their stock from chicken hatcheries - the guy that found CG was connected to a market gardening business at one stage, and that business is connected to a chicken hatchery. In a lot of places like these where families own interconnecting businesses, employees (especially if they are casual or part-time workers) will interchange between business. ie market garden workers may have worked at the chicken hatchery and vice versa.

No one has yet been able to connect why the Eglinton and Wellard sites were chosen. Just maybe, they were chosen because the offender was connected to each area through employment and this employment was connected to one of the Kyme businesses. I am in no way indicating that any member of the Kyme family is involved.

He might have been 'sloppy enough' with the Karrakatta rape because he was evolving into the monster that he became. I am not saying that the perpetrator checked prior weather reports, but it is interesting to note that he didn't offend when it was raining or rain was expected for any of his victims, but rain did occur after JR and CG (that is fact) and around the time he may have disposed of their bodies, but it is different scenario for SS. You would need to read every newspaper article / media report that was out there between SS and JR to see what he would have been reading and taking notice of. No doubt in my mind he would have been watching and waiting to see what 'they' (the police) were upto. And I am sure he would have been working out his next disposal site immediately after SS.

Could the 'no rain' issue be one of the foundation elements as to why the offender profile included the perp would be washing his vehicle. Both JR and CG disposal sites were accessed via very dusty unsealed roads at the time and merely driving over would have lifted dust -- more evidence.

You never know, he may have had an acquaintance or relative that worked in forensics and so was able to glean information without that acquaintance or relative knowing.

Some documents you may consider interesting. http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi226.pdf. http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi392.pdf


There is a pattern -- you should look into that. Hint -- check out dates.

 

[CSK?]

Thanks for that Papertrail, the clarifications in regards to the hatcheries e.t.c made your initial point more clear. I'll check out those links you provided a little later tonight.

Just a side thought... Does anyone know if it is common procedure to test DNA results from a crime scene against the people actually testing the DNA to ensure no contamination has taken place? because wouldn't it be a huge waste of resources hunting down a killer based on DNA that turned out to be a lab technicians.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I want to bring something up. Someone asked me to tbh as I normally don`t go down this avenue.
Since the police investigation is going nowhere. The Iona Priest & the Iona Gardener? The girls may have recognised someone from the school (church) that they knew. Two of the girls went to the school. Then there is Julie Cutler & some have mentioned Lorrin Whitehead.But I personally am dismissing Lorrin in here. I remember a case in Bellevue, Perth. There was a priest over the back fence of a lady I boarded with. I say this cause you never know with a school official you`d normally trust to the max. There Ian Moone, it is out there.

Why this again? Why all the riddles and sneaky innuendo?

 

[J35]

Does anyone know if it is common procedure to test DNA results from a crime scene against the people actually testing the DNA to ensure no contamination has taken place?

Yes, DNA profiles of the forensic squad and the lab techs would be on the database- it's like a negative control for contamination-- with any match to a techy or forensic squad member indicating contamination and a breakdown in the forensic procedures carried out which can consequently dismiss the evidence.