Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Peter Kurten]

Hi Sprint man. I went to the site to try and find the exact site using my knowledge from photos etc. I followed the only track that came south off the road and all it led me too was a very narrow windy track up to a couple of old washers and a mattress. I don't think it's the same one as the one I went on was broken as opposed to the straight one in photos. I'm very keen to see a 95 birds eye view of the CG site (with a pinpoint if possible) and an aerial view of Government road in Nedlands.

Thanks for your message. PS, what are your thoughts on a fake taxi used in these crimes? You have heard or notice anything ?

 

[sorrentomoon]

How many reviews can one case need ?
I believe that the news paper articles and the news print agencies are in cohorts , I have the feeling that there's many stakeholders in this . What was the Murdoch university interest in this last year ?
Does Western Australia have a newspaper called the advertiser like Geelong ?
Ill get around to throwing it all out there shortly , I just have a abundance of questions for the web slueths fraternity

cheers mark

I am so interested in what you have to say markncis 're Victoria and the lorrin whitehead disappearance, (the ex iona college mum of 5, being connected in the csk case).. let's take this out of w.a for a bit?... your thoughts please Mark?

 

[firestarter]

I am so interested in what you have to say markncis 're Victoria and the lorrin whitehead disappearance, (the ex iona college mum of 5, being connected in the csk case).. let's take this out of w.a for a bit?... your thoughts please Mark?

It appears Markncis has been banned.
I am sure he or she will pop up again under another user name.

 

[Sprintman]

Peter, Attached is the 1995 photo taken in Jan/Feb. I was interested in the path the CSK took for both JR and CG based on something Burnie said about SK's having patterns. Similarities are that both involved a long run North or South for a hour or so drive and then pretty much one turn down the first remote road. Both sites were the first reasonable vegetation that would provide cover once houses were not seen. It doesn't seem to me that they were well planned sites. Just the first that were encountered within a reasonable distance of travel, a simple turn, no houses and then reasonable cover. I was working in the Sw when these crimes occurred so didn't know the Claremont scene well at all however my feelings have always been that this was a fake taxi. I saw some longer footage of JR at some point and my strong impressions was that she was ditching her friends to head some where else and was waiting for a taxi to take her elsewhere.. (looking up the street where the taxis were likely to come from, looking at her watch etc). I will give you a better photo of Pippindinny Rd with the site. I have never been there however the site is obvious from the traffic that used the loop track. The vegetation seems to have changed a bit since then also. I will check out Government rd for you..

 

[Sprintman]

Here's more of Pippindinny Rd in 95. Next one in 2000. As said I've never been there but I'm sure this is the site and I've attached the same shot but using photo from 2000 which shows the heavy vehicle use in the loop by the investigators, visitors etc. I'm not sure where her body was found in relation to the site itself but it shows you what I mean about it being the first reasonable cover once the houses had been lost from view.

 

[Sprintman]

Pippindinny Rd in 2000.

 

[Sprintman]

Government rd in 1995 Peter..

 

[CSK?]

Anyone know who the Joe1orbit character was? he certainly seemed like an avid fan of the CSK. This wasn't you in your early days waving the CSK flag was it, Dr.? -oops I mean Parkie.

He seemed like a strange character, totally obsessed with killers, who was he? does he still post? and is he ?

That Joe1orbit and Jen1orbit were handles of Edward Edwards, an American serial killer. He was found guilty of about 5 killings, and his 'parkie' side claimed the murders of another 50 or so victims ranging from the black dahlia to JonBenet Ramsey.

He died in prison around 2010sh (give or take a few years)

 

[Peter Kurten]

Sprintman, thanks so much for those posts + pics. Very useful!

It does look like the vegetation has changed a bit, so knowing the exact point wouldn't be all that useful.

I agree about the disposal sites, it just looks as if they've dumped the bodies as soon as they've come across a completely remote or rural area. Interesting that he dragged CG so far from the road, perhaps he wasn't happy with the short period between JR's abduction and discovery.

We can assume however, that Rowe park and Karrakatta were planned crime sites, which is interesting I think.

Some facts for everyone hear to think about:

- Don Spiers is adamant that SS would not get into a car with anyone she doesn't know.
- Her friends said that she wasn't drunk but tired.
- If the Police are correct, there was less than 3 minutes between the call and when the taxi arrived. Subtract about a minute and a half for hanging up, crossing the road, and waiting for that other car of good Samaritans to go past. She literally would have jumped straight in.

On top of all this, she doesn't sound like the person to call a taxi and then bail on it instantly without even waiting at all. Not even I would do that and I'm quite inconsiderate at times. I really do think that she got into a fake taxi, with a stolen roof sign and adhesive taxi labels on the door.

I think knowledge of the layout of the Karrakatta cemetery had come from either one of two things, maybe both. Working very close to the boundary of KK or attending Hollywood Senior High School and either going to and from there through the cemetery or hanging out there during school, perhaps smoking.

 

[Sprintman]

Agreed.. I'm not sure where the first rape took place but there is an obvious area of bush in 1995 on the eastern side of the cemetery that looks suitable and was not far from Hollywood hospital where the poor girl ended up. That would have to have been a pre planned site to know the entry point, tracks etc and what would be visible or not given the proximity to the road and surrounding houses. Yes, I didn't mention it but Sarah's abduction, in my opinion, had fake taxi all over it given the circumstances of the call and timing.
My point about the first photo is that at the end of the track as it is in 95 you can see what look to be beehives. So there is an existing, although light track, into that area. Either the CSK knew of the track and used it or it was just coincidence that he stopped at the same point. Either way I'm wondering if the bee keeper was ever identified? Not pointing the finger but they may have seen something as it seems that they continued to use the area before and post discovery.

 

[Sutton]

That Joe1orbit and Jen1orbit were handles of Edward Edwards, an American serial killer. He was found guilty of about 5 killings, and his 'parkie' side claimed the murders of another 50 or so victims ranging from the black dahlia to JonBenet Ramsey.

He died in prison around 2010sh (give or take a few years)

Wow. No way. I'd love to know how you found this out. I read a book about him a few years ago (It's Me, Edward Wayne Edwards, the Serial Killer You Never Heard of) and he went to trials of other killers, had a blog(s) about killers and was really interested in other murders. He is definitely guilty of more than five murders, possibly even that of his own mom. Probably one of the most cunning killers I know of (there's no 'proof' or details on so many of his crimes though).

Too bad no one realized he was Jen1/Joe1 at the time (if he was). Maybe he could have given some insight from a serial killer's perspective, or provided a criminal profile.

P.S. He is apparently being implicated in the Steven Avery case (Making a Murderer). This is a sham, Avery is as guilty as sin. IMO.

 

[marble]

Wow. No way. I'd love to know how you found this out. I read a book about him a few years ago (It's Me, Edward Wayne Edwards, the Serial Killer You Never Heard of) and he went to trials of other killers, had a blog(s) about killers and was really interested in other murders. He is definitely guilty of more than five murders, possibly even that of his own mom. Probably one of the most cunning killers I know of (there's no 'proof' or details on so many of his crimes though).

Too bad no one realized he was Jen1/Joe1 at the time (if he was). Maybe he could have given some insight from a serial killer's perspective, or provided a criminal profile.

hmm.

This is the blog that info probably came from, appears to be by the author of the same book you read, Sutton:
http://coldcasecameron.com/killers-timeline/1990-1999/

Please Note that blog has some *REALLY* Cuckoo theories on it/ regarding Edwards. The email address/handle being one of them. IMO.

More likely Joe1orbit and Jen1orbit were handles of Joe Weintraub, a con man from florida. See posts regarding this in an archived newsgroup thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.crime/oZwD82xq8zE

(end derail)



https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.true-crime/vocc1xljPNE/waqm2sWySmoJ

 

[Sutton]

Haha. Yes, I came back to edit my post (but it was too late) and add the book is a bit kooky. The author, a retired detective, makes some far-fetched assumptions. However, I think some of it is true and there are also independent accounts not included in the book.

 

[Bartholemeus]

My point about the first photo is that at the end of the track as it is in 95 you can see what look to be beehives. So there is an existing, although light track, into that area. Either the CSK knew of the track and used it or it was just coincidence that he stopped at the same point. Either way I'm wondering if the bee keeper was ever identified?

The beekeeper was one of the original suspects. To my knowledge he was never ruled out but there was no other circumstantial evidence. He spent a fair bit of his time in Herne Hill.

 

[Sutton]

Of these two scenarios, which one makes more sense?

Scenario 1:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Load the bleeding body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water.

Scenario 2:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a remote location, some distance away, where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Leave.

The first scenario is much riskier than the second. You have to drive two places--first with a frightened victim and then with a dead body. You have to clean up the mess in your car. You have to carry the victim to the disposal site.

Scenario one only makes sense if the killer took the girls to his home or his work to assault them. Then he'd have to move them.

Also, why didn't the killer go just a little bit further and dump the bodies in water? Wasn't Jane very close to a stream? Would it have been harder to place Ciara in the ocean (easy enough to time the tides)? It seems safer to place them in water to remove any type of evidence.

Can anyone see any flaws in this reasoning? Do y'all think the killer did the first or second set of actions?

Didn't police say they believed the killer killed the girls close to Claremont? Or am I confusing that (with the statement that the girls were killed the night of their abductions)?

-----

There are only so many beekeepers in WA. Does anyone know how old the POI was in the mid 90's? Was he strong enough to carry a body? Did he have two beekeeping locations or 20? Do we know anything else about him?

Why would he dump a body so close to areas he frequented (and possibly still had equipment)? Unless he wanted to keep the victims close by?

Sorry, I'm all over the place, hope this makes sense.

 

[CSK?]

I can't honestly recall the web site where I read that the Joe1orbit and Jen1orbit were usernames of Edward Edwards but I do recall whomever the usernames belonged to were trying to sell all material written under the names as well as physical documents, notebooks e.t.c to a publisher. I had followed a few links and sites around and ended up coming across claims that it was infact Edward Edwards.

Regardless of if it was him or not it introduced me to Edwards whom I'd never heard of and this guy is one hell of a nut case character to say the least! he made a lot of claims about framing people for murder and being responsible for some of the highest profile murders in the 21st century. some of which was utter rubbish, some quite possibly true. he claimed to have murdered the 3 young boys from the 'paradise lost' documentry and was even shown in the doco standing behind mark byers as he visited his step sons grave, so kind of trippy that he managed to appear in that, he definitely took being a serial killer fan boy to a whole new level.

I will continue to look around for the sites that stated J1orbit(s) were Edwards, if I can come across them again I will let you know.

 

[elastic]

Of these two scenarios, which one makes more sense?

Scenario 1:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Load the bleeding body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water.

Scenario 2:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a remote location, some distance away, where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Leave.

The first scenario is much riskier than the second. You have to drive two places--first with a frightened victim and then with a dead body. You have to clean up the mess in your car. You have to carry the victim to the disposal site.

Scenario one only makes sense if the killer took the girls to his home or his work to assault them. Then he'd have to move them.

Also, why didn't the killer go just a little bit further and dump the bodies in water? Wasn't Jane very close to a stream? Would it have been harder to place Ciara in the ocean (easy enough to time the tides)? It seems safer to place them in water to remove any type of evidence.

Can anyone see any flaws in this reasoning? Do y'all think the killer did the first or second set of actions?

Didn't police say they believed the killer killed the girls close to Claremont? Or am I confusing that (with the statement that the girls were killed the night of their abductions)?

-----

There are only so many beekeepers in WA. Does anyone know how old the POI was in the mid 90's? Was he strong enough to carry a body? Did he have two beekeeping locations or 20? Do we know anything else about him?

Why would he dump a body so close to areas he frequented (and possibly still had equipment)? Unless he wanted to keep the victims close by?

Sorry, I'm all over the place, hope this makes sense.

What makes you think of only these two scenarios? is this because Bart made the comments abut the throats being slit, and this was based on the insect theory. The counter argument is a very strong man could cause a similar wound via strangulation.


Scenario 3:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim. Load the dead body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water. (This could be days after the abduction if the secondary location is a house/workplace/industrial building etc)

Scenario 4:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a remote location, some distance away, where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle her to death. Leave.

Or even scenario 5:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear, maybe kill her or badly injure her via strangulation with a chord/washing line. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim again if still alive. Load the dead body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water. (This could be days after the abduction if the secondary location is a house/workplace/industrial building etc)

But if Bart is correct on the knife then if very well could be scenario 6:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim until dead or badly injured and passed out. Load the dead body back into your vehicle with binding etc still intact. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Slice her throat near the grave site, drag her to another location 20 metres or so away, Leave her near, but not in, water.

Also Bart could you share any information on the tool that was apparently missing from Lance Williams home, or what the tool may have been, and whether the information about this is reliable enough to say that Ciara may have had an impression from an object struct to her head? This could imply something went wrong and panic set in, if a tool was involved could this be someone who works on cars alot, or has a trade background, if not Lance Williams, then I suppose any man could have a tool readily available.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Of these two scenarios, which one makes more sense?

Scenario 1:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Load the bleeding body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water.

Scenario 2:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a remote location, some distance away, where you may or may not sexually assault her. Cut her throat. Leave.

The first scenario is much riskier than the second. You have to drive two places--first with a frightened victim and then with a dead body. You have to clean up the mess in your car. You have to carry the victim to the disposal site.

Scenario one only makes sense if the killer took the girls to his home or his work to assault them. Then he'd have to move them.

Also, why didn't the killer go just a little bit further and dump the bodies in water? Wasn't Jane very close to a stream? Would it have been harder to place Ciara in the ocean (easy enough to time the tides)? It seems safer to place them in water to remove any type of evidence.

Can anyone see any flaws in this reasoning? Do y'all think the killer did the first or second set of actions?

Didn't police say they believed the killer killed the girls close to Claremont? Or am I confusing that (with the statement that the girls were killed the night of their abductions)?

Scenario 2 makes more sense but again this case throws up curve ball after curve ball.

Police definitely think the girls were killing not far from abduction site and not long after abduction event. They say this on CIA. As far as I know they searched hard locally to find the kill site. I assume this means every sqm of Karrakatta (I wonder if they ever exactly identified the rape location of the 1995 abduction and rape?).

Police are also quite certain that the dump sites are not the kill sites

There are some problems with this theory;

1. Where can you take an abductee without them screaming?
2. The CSK most likely cut their throats. Lots of blood on ground and in car

Then there's problems with the alternate theory;

1. How do you keep an abductee at bay when driving 50km?


Potential scenario;

1. Lures girls into car/taxi/fake taxi
2. Feigns a breakdown in a dark area on way to dropping girls off
3. Strangles them and maybe binds them, puts them in boot or on floor of back seat
4. Drives to intermediate site not far from dump site
5. Does whatever his ritual is - probably some sort of sexual assault
6. Cuts throat to make sure they are dead
7. Dumps them


So,

- If it's true that throats were cut - no matter which we look at it, lot of blood which means a lot of plastic to line a car or car boot
- If he strangled them, then this would not have been easy

-----

There are only so many beekeepers in WA. Does anyone know how old the POI was in the mid 90's? Was he strong enough to carry a body? Did he have two beekeeping locations or 20? Do we know anything else about him?

Why would he dump a body so close to areas he frequented (and possibly still had equipment)? Unless he wanted to keep the victims close by?

Sorry, I'm all over the place, hope this makes sense.

Not sure but a guess would be 40s. Had a honey shop I think. Also was familiar with Wellard.

 

[Bartholemeus]

What makes you think of only these two scenarios? is this because Bart made the comments abut the throats being slit, and this was based on the insect theory. The counter argument is a very strong man could cause a similar wound via strangulation.

I'm not sure you're understanding the concept. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough;

If a dead body is left in the open, as it decomposes insects appear and get in on the action. They will start in obvious places of access - orifices or open wounds.

It was found that there was a lot of insect action on the throats of both girls. Science shows this is consistent with throats being cut, as in the insects started at the neck because it was an open wound and the easiest point of access. If the throats weren't cut then the insect action would have most likely been somewhere else.

Despite all the problems with blood at kill site or in cars or homes, it's almost certain that throats were cut.

 

[elastic]

The beekeeper was one of the original suspects. To my knowledge he was never ruled out but there was no other circumstantial evidence. He spent a fair bit of his time in Herne Hill.

Papertrail linked the guy who discovered the one of the bodies to chicken farms operating in both areas from memory, it was a stretch but a link none the less.

So if the beekeeper was a POI it would seem a bit stupid to plant a body near an area you regularly visited. Unless you wanted the body found desperately, maybe for the media attention, and wanted to make it seem like the discovery was innocent due to being at work and being required to visit the area.

Or if you were the POI who did labouring and odd maintenance jobs for chicken farms in the areas then after Sarah Spiers maybe you wanted the body discovered for the attention and made sure the second body was discovered. Again being in the area for work would seem innocent.

More than likely though its neither and these bodies were dumped and not burried because the killer/s wanted to leave in a hurry. It probably took alot longer to dig a shallow grave and in the middle of the night you couldnt really tell who was lurking and maybe watching in the area whilst you took hours to dispose of the body. Hiding Sarah Spiers probably felt far more risky than dumping the other two if they took time to hide her the first time round. If Karakatta was the first then he didn't even bother to move the body anywhere and just dumped it at the secondary location and got out of there, maybe spooked, who knows, the second time he has taken the body and hid it very well where it still has not been found. This could have been because the sexual assault/rape could have taken place and he may have left evidence, or felt comfortable burying it before realising it was more risky than dumping the body and driving off before anyone in the area realises you are there.