Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[elastic]

I'm not sure you're understanding the concept. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough;

If a dead body is left in the open, as it decomposes insects appear and get in on the action. They will start in obvious places of access - orifices or open wounds.

It was found that there was a lot of insect action on the throats of both girls. Science shows this is consistent with throats being cut, as in the insects started at the neck because it was an open wound and the easiest point of access. If the throats weren't cut then the insect action would have most likely been somewhere else.

Despite all the problems with blood at kill site or in cars or homes, it's almost certain that throats were cut.

If someone was to pull a chord, washing line tight enough around someone as small as the CSK victims, and if this someone practiced martial arts, or was big in stature, are you convinced against all probability that the wounds from this action, when pulled tight and hard enough from a man powerful enough with a chord/washing line could not cause lacerations deep enough to start this insect eating frenzy around the neck area?

And did this information come from Debbie Marshall's book, is that the only source?

What about the tool?

 

[elastic]

Scenario 2 makes more sense but again this case throws up curve ball after curve ball.

Police definitely think the girls were killing not far from abduction site and not long after abduction event. They say this on CIA. As far as I know they searched hard locally to find the kill site. I assume this means every sqm of Karrakatta (I wonder if they ever exactly identified the rape location of the 1995 abduction and rape?).

Police are also quite certain that the dump sites are not the kill sites

There are some problems with this theory;

1. Where can you take an abductee without them screaming?
2. The CSK most likely cut their throats. Lots of blood on ground and in car

Then there's problems with the alternate theory;

1. How do you keep an abductee at bay when driving 50km?


Potential scenario;

1. Lures girls into car/taxi/fake taxi
2. Feigns a breakdown in a dark area on way to dropping girls off
3. Strangles them and maybe binds them, puts them in boot or on floor of back seat
4. Drives to intermediate site not far from dump site
5. Does whatever his ritual is - probably some sort of sexual assault
6. Cuts throat to make sure they are dead
7. Dumps them


So,

- If it's true that throats were cut - no matter which we look at it, lot of blood which means a lot of plastic to line a car or car boot
- If he strangled them, then this would not have been easy



Not sure but a guess would be 40s. Had a honey shop I think. Also was familiar with Wellard.

Wasn't there always two theories, one was that they may have been killed near by, now that reiterated by Karrakatta being linked, and the other that they were murdered near the dump site, how close we don't know, but detectives scoured the close proximity looking for blood and evidence believing they may have been killed near the dump site.

 

[Elwood_1]

Scenario: Taxi/Abduct/Invite the girl home. Roofie/sleeping tablet her before/during/after you have transported them and had your fun. At some indeterminate time in the future get rid of the body in a location far removed from your home, but where you have some degree of familiarity. Repeat until publicity satisfies your need for 'fame'.

Depart country. Don't come back. Stay off DNA databases. Don't have a Facebook account, post online in your real name, or publish pictures of yourself. Learn how to keep a secret.

IMHO a cotton rope ligature is unlikely to break the skin if used for strangulation purposes, but if tied tightly, post mortem swelling would cause it to cut deeply into the flesh, but it would most likely still be present when the body was found. Skin is very tough.

Question: Do we know that the bodies were 'bled'. Depending upon the wounds (if any), a body without a heartbeat may not bleed very much at all. There may be some bowel, bladder evacuation, but not always. A dead body isn't necessarily messy. They can just look like a sleeping person initially.

 

[Bartholemeus]

And did this information come from Debbie Marshall's book, is that the only source?

It would be foolish to take intel out of DM's book as gospel. Police blind sided her so it wouldn't be a stretch for them to give misinformation.

What about the tool?

He got banned again.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Wasn't there always two theories, one was that they may have been killed near by, now that reiterated by Karrakatta being linked, and the other that they were murdered near the dump site, how close we don't know, but detectives scoured the close proximity looking for blood and evidence believing they may have been killed near the dump site.

Publicly, I've only hear police and media say they believe killed soon after and close by. However, recently there was a pic of police searching somewhere rural. We never worked out where this was.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Is there any further info on the fact their throats were cut? I remember reading an article text from the age (late 1998) on some serial killer website , that mostly talked about LW. If I remember correctly, they went on to talk about the rumours and that the Police had to quash rumours of mutilation. They went on further to say "the Age believe they were strangled". Now I can't find the dam article so you've just got to take my word for it. Of course, we have to take all media articles with a grain of salt.

In my personal opinion, I don't think their throats were cut. The fact that JR had fibres on her "not consistent with seated normally in a car" suggests that there was no lining of plastic or of any other sort. I doubt the killer wanted to the mess associated, especially in a new car like that whoever's it was.

 

[enzeder]

Is there any further info on the fact their throats were cut? I remember reading an article text from the age (late 1998) on some serial killer website , that mostly talked about LW. If I remember correctly, they went on to talk about the rumours and that the Police had to quash rumours of mutilation. They went on further to say "the Age believe they were strangled". Now I can't find the dam article so you've just got to take my word for it. Of course, we have to take all media articles with a grain of salt.

In my personal opinion, I don't think their throats were cut. The fact that JR had fibres on her "not consistent with seated normally in a car" suggests that there was no lining of plastic or of any other sort. I doubt the killer wanted to the mess associated, especially in a new car like that whoever's it was.

BBM - Is this is the article you are looking for?.

Publication: The Age - Date: 30/05/1998

WHO KILLED THESE WOMEN? - THE HUNT FOR A SERIAL KILLER - Part One
http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/app...0&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=news980601_0220_2955

Police have revealed little about the bodies or the investigation, but the rumors became so frightening they told The Age emphatically: "They were not mutilated."

WHO KILLED THESE WOMEN? - THE HUNT FOR A SERIAL KILLER - Part Two
Publication: The Age - Date: 30/05/1998: http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/app...0&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=news980601_0205_0762

 

[Sutton]

...Police definitely think the girls were killing not far from abduction site and not long after abduction event. They say this on CIA. As far as I know they searched hard locally to find the kill site. I assume this means every sqm of Karrakatta (I wonder if they ever exactly identified the rape location of the 1995 abduction and rape?).

Police are also quite certain that the dump sites are not the kill sites

What are some possible ways in which police would be able to determine they were killed near the abduction sites?

1. Some type of pollen or soil or seed that is only located near the Claremont area was found under the girls' nails or tangled in their hair.
2. Jane's watch was stopped at 2:20ish am (and maybe it had a crack in the glass). But this doesn't necessarily indicated she was killed then as the damage could have occurred during a blitz attack.

There are problems with both of these explanations. Can anyone think of another idea?

1. Where can you take an abductee without them screaming?

Maybe he just told them he'd let them go if they cooperated. I got the impression that Karrakatta was not screaming. The Swanbourne Hotel carpark girl who escaped in 1994 said her very loud screams did not bother her attacker at all. No one came to her rescue. This attack could be totally unrelated though.

I don't know where you could take them that would be isolated enough that no one would hear. Maybe his basement?

...Then there's problems with the alternate theory;

1. How do you keep an abductee at bay when driving 50km?

You might hit them in the head with a tire iron or other tool. But I see what you mean. The killer might have preferred to kill the girls at the disposal site, but had to kill them early because he couldn't control them.

Potential scenario;

1. Lures girls into car/taxi/fake taxi
2. Feigns a breakdown in a dark area on way to dropping girls off
3. Strangles them and maybe binds them, puts them in boot or on floor of back seat
4. Drives to intermediate site not far from dump site
5. Does whatever his ritual is - probably some sort of sexual assault
6. Cuts throat to make sure they are dead
7. Dumps them


So,

- If it's true that throats were cut - no matter which we look at it, lot of blood which means a lot of plastic to line a car or car boot
- If he strangled them, then this would not have been easy

Possible, can't think of anything that doesn't fit with this scenario.

 

[Sutton]

What makes you think of only these two scenarios? is this because Bart made the comments abut the throats being slit, and this was based on the insect theory. The counter argument is a very strong man could cause a similar wound via strangulation.


Scenario 3:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim. Load the dead body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water. (This could be days after the abduction if the secondary location is a house/workplace/industrial building etc)

Scenario 4:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a remote location, some distance away, where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle her to death. Leave.

Or even scenario 5:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear, maybe kill her or badly injure her via strangulation with a chord/washing line. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim again if still alive. Load the dead body back into your vehicle. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Leave her near, but not in, water. (This could be days after the abduction if the secondary location is a house/workplace/industrial building etc)

But if Bart is correct on the knife then if very well could be scenario 6:
Abduct a girl. Restrain her through violence or bindings or fear. Drive to a second location where you may or may not sexually assault her. Strangle the victim until dead or badly injured and passed out. Load the dead body back into your vehicle with binding etc still intact. Drive for an hour with the body. Carry the body to a remote location off a busy road. Slice her throat near the grave site, drag her to another location 20 metres or so away, Leave her near, but not in, water...

RSBM. You're right. There are many other scenarios. I was questioning why the killer would do something so risky for no additional benefit.

Yes, my own belief is the girls' throats were cut, and that is based on what Bart has said. I don't agree with some of his opinions, but I trust his word. Bart explained it to me that the cut throats aren't just his own conclusion, but the conclusion of the investigation, to the best of his knowledge.

And I think we have all seen that he is not going to just take someone's word for it.

I don't think manual strangulation could case a wound similar to a cut. MOO. But the drapery cord you suggested probably could. I don't think it necessarily would (because the attacker would probably need a garrote of some type and that would create a cut all the way around or the attacker would have to straddle the victim and strangle her while she was on her back).

Your scenarios are all possible.

 

[Sutton]

...Question: Do we know that the bodies were 'bled'. Depending upon the wounds (if any), a body without a heartbeat may not bleed very much at all. There may be some bowel, bladder evacuation, but not always. A dead body isn't necessarily messy. They can just look like a sleeping person initially.

RSBM. There might not be much post-mortem bleeding in a stab or gunshot wound, but what about a gash to the major veins and arteries in the neck?

Are there any hunters on the thread? If you shoot a deer, don't you later cut his neck to drain some of the blood? (Please, no overly graphic details.)

 

[Sutton]

Is there any further info on the fact their throats were cut? I remember reading an article text from the age (late 1998) on some serial killer website , that mostly talked about LW. If I remember correctly, they went on to talk about the rumours and that the Police had to quash rumours of mutilation. They went on further to say "the Age believe they were strangled". Now I can't find the dam article so you've just got to take my word for it. Of course, we have to take all media articles with a grain of salt.

In my personal opinion, I don't think their throats were cut. The fact that JR had fibres on her "not consistent with seated normally in a car" suggests that there was no lining of plastic or of any other sort. I doubt the killer wanted to the mess associated, especially in a new car like that whoever's it was.

How do you think it happened?

 

[Peter Kurten]

How do you think it happened?

This is purely my own opinion.

I believe Jane Rimmer's attack was more of a sexual nature. I believe she was taken to Karrakatta Cemetery and raped. I believe that she was strangled using a thin sharp ligature, perhaps plastic washing line, then driven straight to the place where the killer dumped her body.

I believe Ciara's murder was different. I don't think she was sexually attacked, and instead the killer became frustrated at her for some reason or another. I believe she died from blunt trauma wounds to the head and perhaps other injuries to her body.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Yes thanks, great! I've been looking for that.

 

[elastic]

Yes thanks, great! I've been looking for that.

There is also this article

The body of one of these, Ms Jane Rimmer (23), was found last August. She had been strangled. The second woman, Ms Sarah Spiers, who was also in her early 20s and vanished last year, is still missing. It is understood that all three were past pupils of the Iona Presentation Convent in Perth, where Mrs Glennon had worked as a teacher.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irishwoman-s-death-linked-to-australian-serial-killer-1.58756

Not sure how reliable the Irish paper was at getting that information but they appear to be well informed in there two articles on Ciara Glennon, the other article being:
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/f...ss-as-serial-killer-still-roams-free-1.149685

I wonder if the information about Jane being strangled came from Denis Glennon?

I am leaning towards strangulation over throat cut

 

[Sutton]

This is purely my own opinion.

I believe Jane Rimmer's attack was more of a sexual nature. I believe she was taken to Karrakatta Cemetery and raped. I believe that she was strangled using a thin sharp ligature, perhaps plastic washing line, then driven straight to the place where the killer dumped her body.

I believe Ciara's murder was different. I don't think she was sexually attacked, and instead the killer became frustrated at her for some reason or another. I believe she died from blunt trauma wounds to the head and perhaps other injuries to her body.

Okay. This makes sense, more or less. But why was Ciara even in contact with the killer in the first place? Maybe he intended on assaulting her? Or...?

Do you have a guess as to why the CSK stopped? Did he die? Or move away?

 

[GreenDevil]

Peter, I'm curious as to how you've got the opinion that JR's murder was sexually motivated, she was strangled and that she was raped at Karrakatta? What made you form this opinion?

 

[Peter Kurten]

Peter, I'm curious as to how you've got the opinion that JR's murder was sexually motivated, she was strangled and that she was raped at Karrakatta? What made you form this opinion?

Hi GreenDevil,

My opinions are fuelled by both logic and an accumulation of small bits of information I see around the place.

There was an article a while ago (again, it would take me ages to find it) that quoted a Police officer regarding the discovery of Jane's body just after it was found. He said something like "whether she participated in a consensual sex act or was the victim of a rape, we are yet to determine". That, on top of the fact that the killer abducted again afterwards, suggested to me that it was an overall successful sexual attack for him.

I believe, SS and JR were both taken to Karrakatta, but that's more based on my line of thinking regarding employees of a particular business in that area. The police hadn't made that particular association at that point so I don't think the killer was too fussed about re using that area; After all, he kept using Claremont.

As for strangulation, I've seen and heard it enough for me to form a belief, while I still have an open mind. Insect activity may have started from just the accumulation of sever bruising in itself, as opposed to an open knife wound.

GreenDevil, I would love to know the type of tool that the Police took from Lance William's house. Can you say whether it is a specific or rare tool as opposed to just a spanner of socket set?

I believe the killer is still living in Perth. The reason I suspect he stopped is because is he met a partner. Again, purely opinion.

 

[Elwood_1]

I think it would be incredibly risky to blade kill and then transport. Cutting the neck arteries produces a blood spray that can easily reach 30 feet, and until the brain tells the heart to stop beating, or you run out of blood it will keep spraying, and then there will be continued drainage from the brain itself (50-60ml of blood per 100g of brain = ~1liter) There could also be a lot of noise involved, bladder release, maybe a bowel purge too. STINKS! The victim and everything nearby will usually be literally showered in blood, and you will have a pool many feet across which will leave the victim and probably the cutter literally drenched in it. If it was outside, the next day the area will be covered in swarms of flies and ants, and be visible for days.

The problem with transportation is simple. Random Breath Testing. You had an excellent chance of getting pulled over, but if you were covered in blood you had a big problem, unless you took the time to stop for a makeover. Plus, dead blood STINKS. You can smell it, especially a few hours later. Also, WAPOL can pull you over and search your car for no reason. Sorry, I meant a 'license check'. The Birnies drugged, transported, and then killed at the disposal site, and were apparently spoken to by a potential victim while they had another victim 'sleeping' peacefully in the back of their car.

Explaining to Senior Constable Plod that it is your new girlfriend asleep in the back seat after a few too many adult beverages is a lot easier and less memorable for him later than finding a body with its head half off wrapped in plastic in the boot and a driver looking like he just stepped out of Friday the 13th. Killing someone is likely to get our man pretty amped up too, dilated pupils, sweat slime, cortisol stink, shaking hands, jittery voice, fast breathing, lots of 'um' and 'ah' while talking, anxious, rapid jerky movements, walking stiff legged, wants to go (right NOW). Cops are trained to look for that. And he could even be carrying facial wounds from fightback. Getting pulled over with a dead body in the boot would have his adrenaline redlining, and his driving would be crap.

Jayne had VR fibers on her? That means she wasn't wrapped when she picked them up initially. So she wasn't bled at that point. Also, if you transport a cut body that hasn't been bled you then have a large blood soaked tarp and your own clothing that you need to get rid of, and if there was any further leakage you risk a spill inside the car. That is a clean up and disposal problem just as bad as trying to get rid of a body, and a potentially massive DNA sample left in the vehicle. IMHO it would be unwise to cut, and like the Birnies, it would be far safer to drug and transport for a suffocation/strangulation kill at the dump site.

Look at it like this, you get pulled over with a roofied chick in the back of your car. Awkward, but you picked her up outside a pub, she's out of it, and you are just going for a drive to a quiet spot to watch the sunrise until she wakes up and the fun begins. Happens every day. Brand new girlfriend, just met, true love. Good times.

Even if at that point Senior Constable Plod decides something is amiss and he takes the major step of arresting you on suspicion it is your word against hers. What have you actually done that can be proven in a court of law? Essentially nothing. Picked up a chick, but she says you abducted her and drugged her?! If she can even remember what happened from the drugs, the alcohol, and the stress. That's crazy talk. I bet she does this all the time. What was she doing wandering the streets in the wee small hours alone anyway, everyone asks. Hmmm.

You are essentially clean, and claiming to be the REAL victim. You were just doing what anyone would do, and now someone is accusing you?! Of what exactly. Talking any more at this point is simple self incrimination. Zip it. Meanwhile, she has a positive blood alcohol reading, tests positive for a recreational drug, stinks of pub mank, makeup everywhere, has clearly made some very bad decisions, can't really remember much, and is hysterical. Maybe even lashing out, and maybe there was that other time... Mum and Dad have arrived, it's 5.00am, everyone is tired, lots of shouting and crying, rape kit (negative), blood tests, major family dramas. Horrible. Maybe they just want to call it a lesson learned and go home. Most likely, as nothing really happened/we will talk about this at home young lady/how could you be so stupid?!

If at that point the police make the incredibly pointless move to actually charge you with something (that is their option, not the family's (I believe)), the most they can probably hang on you is maybe Deprivation of Liberty (2 year good behavior bond for a first offense). Maybe. If the Magistrate doesn't give the Prosecuting Sergeant a bollocking, and throw the entire case out due to a lack of evidence. Most probable.
The likely scenario is that they will carefull consider that they have an unreliable and possibly uncooperative (ahem) 'victim', minimal to no evidence that an offense was even committed, no witnesses, shift change is coming up - and if there is the usual overtime ban they will then be working for time off in lieu which they will never get and wifey will pitch a fit. As usual. Meanwhile, you have long since chosen to no longer cooperate with them after you elected to invoke your legal right to remain silent awaiting proper legal representation having up until this point declined to utter or sign any form of formal statement.

You might get a stern caution from the East Perth Lockup Duty Sergeant when you leave that morning, with your ribs bruised and your ears still ringing from when you fell over and landed on that phone book three times during informal questioning in the stairwell away from the video cameras. You may even still be soaking wet from when you complained of being hot and they put that fire hose on you in their special holding cell and then kindly turned on that big industrial exhaust fan that they had back then to dry you off a bit. Brrr, East Perth can be chilly first thing in the morning.

And off to breakfast at Valentinos before dropping the car back. Cappuccino or Macciato, that is the question... Easy as.

 

[GreenDevil]

Hi GreenDevil,

My opinions are fuelled by both logic and an accumulation of small bits of information I see around the place.

There was an article a while ago (again, it would take me ages to find it) that quoted a Police officer regarding the discovery of Jane's body just after it was found. He said something like "whether she participated in a consensual sex act or was the victim of a rape, we are yet to determine". That, on top of the fact that the killer abducted again afterwards, suggested to me that it was an overall successful sexual attack for him.

I believe, SS and JR were both taken to Karrakatta, but that's more based on my line of thinking regarding employees of a particular business in that area. The police hadn't made that particular association at that point so I don't think the killer was too fussed about re using that area; After all, he kept using Claremont.

As for strangulation, I've seen and heard it enough for me to form a belief, while I still have an open mind. Insect activity may have started from just the accumulation of sever bruising in itself, as opposed to an open knife wound.

GreenDevil, I would love to know the type of tool that the Police took from Lance William's house. Can you say whether it is a specific or rare tool as opposed to just a spanner of socket set?

I believe the killer is still living in Perth. The reason I suspect he stopped is because is he met a partner. Again, purely opinion.

Considering it appears as though he has been cleared, it should be okay to reveal. They took a set of tools from a fire place, that was missing the fire poker.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Thanks GreenDevil. Very interesting.

Sprintman, are you aware of the article that Papertrail posted about the two fake taxis reported just after Jane Rimmer went missing? One was a commodore, the other a falcon. On top of that, Steve the narrator of the CIA documentary mentioned the "flourishing" illegal taxi industry, and the order that went out to close it down.