Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[papertrail]

I thought it said taxi but I could be wrong. This is what has been posted previously in the thread;

Golf Course - 1995
In 1995 a young woman got into a taxi in Claremont and the driver drove her to the other side of the railway line to the golf course. Forcibly stripped of her clothes, she managed to escape, banging on the door of a nearby house and screaming for the couple who lived there to let her in. Completely traumatised, it took an hour for her to finally splutter out what had happened.


I think it was based on an article provided by so can you please check? I've always thought taxi but if this is wrong then there's another non-taxi related sex attack to add to the list.

From memory the Davies Road attack is Marshall's rendition. I don't think I have ever read it in any of the news articles I have. Therefore it would be an 'extra' but the thing is, that from t he way way that Marshall refers to this Davies Road attack, and a couple of other attacks, it is not easy to pinpoint the date or year of the Davies Road attack. I'll see if I can find the book page and post it later.

 

[Bartholemeus]

found this article on my computer; think I have already posted it on WS ages ago. This is the article that mentions the guy in the back seat of the taxi grabbing the woman's wrist. West Australian 22/2/1997 page 5.

We also do not know if the taxi driver was involved, if he was one of the drivers with a criminal record that was booted out of the taxi industry during the clean up of the industry.

you should note that article stated the woman had hailed a taxi "near the club". This article does not mention whether the woman was climbing into front or back seat.

There's lot of conflicting media reports on this one. If the above one is true this is a possible scenario;

- Club going guy gets into cab
- Let's go buddy
- Hang on a sec, let me try get 2 fares. let me see where this lady is going
- she's hot, I'll hide in case she doesn't want to share a cab
- damn she's spotted me, I'll grab her hand
- Whoops, looks like she had a fall, drop me home and let's never mention this again

Also, the guy in the cab could have known her and as she was walking to the cab, try to prank her. Once he's learnt she's got a broken ankle he stays quiet.


Pretty out there theories but possible.

I'd like to see Macro make a public appeal covering a whole heap of things including;

1. If you were that driver or passenger, please talk to us. We need to be able to rule things out. There will be know reprisal regarding the broken ankle.

2. If you were the driver of the car on Stirling Rd, please talk to.....

3. If you were the driver of the car talking to CG, please talk to us....

4. if it could have been you driving the dirty cab on Pipidinny Rd, please talk to us.....

5. If you had a colleague who drove a new white commodore station wagon back then, please talk to us.....

 

[Sutton]

Here's screenshots of the golf course incident and Karrakatta as described in The Devil's Playground. Davies Road is not mentioned in the book.

(Chapter 30)

 

[billywhizz]

This article pinpoints a location on a map at the corner of Bayview Terrace and Princess Road. It's my interpretation that this is where the woman jumped out (especially considering other articles that say she caught a taxi near the club).

Video clue hope. June 11, 1996

The article also states the taxi driver was in on the attack.

which article? that link just goes to a WS page. if it's on that page can you please advise which post?

 

[Sutton]

which article? that link just goes to a WS page. if it's on that page can you please advise which post?

Sorry, I don't know why the link isn't working properly. Here it is again, it's the PDF posted by Papertrail in thread 2, post #936.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Western-Australia-2&p=12141533#post12141533

 

[billywhizz]

Sorry, I don't know why the link isn't working properly. Here it is again, it's the PDF posted by Papertrail in thread 2, post #936.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Western-Australia-2&p=12141533#post12141533

thanks for clearing that up.

i thought that papertrail would have been the one to originally post the article stating the taxi driver was involved in the attack, considering they now believe otherwise.

might as well not post any of the old articles if no one is going to take any notice of what they say.

cheers

 

[Peter Kurten]

Sprintman,

Thanks very much for providing this. It helps me immensely; much appreciated.

Peter,
Photo resolution isn't great at that scale but hope it helps..
Regards

 

[papertrail]

thanks for clearing that up.

i thought that papertrail would have been the one to originally post the article stating the taxi driver was involved in the attack, considering they now believe otherwise.

might as well not post any of the old articles if no one is going to take any notice of what they say.

cheers

The article that Sutton referred to, ie posted in message number 936, when I first posted that article I did so due to the conversation at the time being about Jane and her 4 friends.

I believe the referencing by the media in 1996 about the taxi driver's alleged involvement in the October 1994 event, was total media hype due to the hysteria about the possibility a rogue taxi driver was involved. Simple as that.

I have never indicated at any time that I believed the taxi driver was involved as I believe it is not proven and am open to discussing issues either way.

 

[papertrail]

There's lot of conflicting media reports on this one. If the above one is true this is a possible scenario; - Club going guy gets into cab - Let's go buddy - Hang on a sec, let me try get 2 fares. let me see where this lady is going - she's hot, I'll hide in case she doesn't want to share a cab - damn she's spotted me, I'll grab her hand - Whoops, looks like she had a fall, drop me home and let's never mention this again Also, the guy in the cab could have known her and as she was walking to the cab, try to prank her. Once he's learnt she's got a broken ankle he stays quiet. Pretty out there theories but possible. I'd like to see Macro make a public appeal covering a whole heap of things including; 1. If you were that driver or passenger, please talk to us. We need to be able to rule things out. There will be know reprisal regarding the broken ankle. 2. If you were the driver of the car on Stirling Rd, please talk to..... 3. If you were the driver of the car talking to CG, please talk to us.... 4. if it could have been you driving the dirty cab on Pipidinny Rd, please talk to us..... 5. If you had a colleague who drove a new white commodore station wagon back then, please talk to us.....

For all we know, police may have spoken with the driver and the (crouching) guy.

 

[papertrail]

There's lot of conflicting media reports on this one. If the above one is true this is a possible scenario;

- Club going guy gets into cab
- Let's go buddy
- Hang on a sec, let me try get 2 fares. let me see where this lady is going
- she's hot, I'll hide in case she doesn't want to share a cab
- damn she's spotted me, I'll grab her hand
- Whoops, looks like she had a fall, drop me home and let's never mention this again

Also, the guy in the cab could have known her and as she was walking to the cab, try to prank her. Once he's learnt she's got a broken ankle he stays quiet.


Pretty out there theories but possible.

I'd like to see Macro make a public appeal covering a whole heap of things including;

1. If you were that driver or passenger, please talk to us. We need to be able to rule things out. There will be know reprisal regarding the broken ankle.

2. If you were the driver of the car on Stirling Rd, please talk to.....

3. If you were the driver of the car talking to CG, please talk to us....

4. if it could have been you driving the dirty cab on Pipidinny Rd, please talk to us.....

5. If you had a colleague who drove a new white commodore station wagon back then, please talk to us.....

For all we know, police may have spoken with the driver and the (crouching) guy.

The Pipidinny Road alleged taxi sighting; the vehicle may have been one of the disused taxis but still displaying logos etc as was the case before the taxi industry cleanup.

And the 'crouching' guy may well have been the same guy that Sarah Spiers shared with back to South Perth on the night of 25 - 26 January 1996.

 

[CSK?]

Well i was away for a few days come back and had over 73 pages to catch up on (boy you guys were busy for 5 days) I procrastinated for a few days, finally got to reading, after 70 odd pages I realized I was on an older thread from early 2015:gaah:

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Well i was away for a few days come back and had over 73 pages to catch up on (boy you guys were busy for 5 days) I procrastinated for a few days, finally got to reading, after 70 odd pages I realized I was on an older thread from early 2015:gaah:

So you must have a fair idea of who the CSK is now then with all that reading

My money has shifted significantly to LW (thanks to Barts persuasive reasons, which were listed pages back, for why he could well be the man...or men). And I am also thinking that as useless as Macro has been.... GENERALLY police around the world have a fair idea of who is responsible for crimes and maybe that is the reason why they focused on LW so intently and so narrowly for so many years. Now they just cant pin him but the killings have stopped so to some extent they are satisfied (and happy to collect a wage from the investigation)

I like to take a holistic view of proceedings haha.

While I am not dismissing Drocs versions of events and I still have his suspect up there in the odds maybe it is reasonable to think that Droc thought he knew what was happening but he might well have been simply wrong. I have definitely shifted to LW though.

I also think there is a slight but reasonable chance that someone totally of the radar could be responsible and that is why there has never been a conviction.

 

[GreenDevil]

So you must have a fair idea of who the CSK is now then with all that reading

My money has shifted significantly to LW (thanks to Barts persuasive reasons, which were listed pages back, for why he could well be the man...or men). And I am also thinking that as useless as Macro has been.... GENERALLY police around the world have a fair idea of who is responsible for crimes and maybe that is the reason why they focused on LW so intently and so narrowly for so many years. Now they just cant pin him but the killings have stopped so to some extent they are satisfied (and happy to collect a wage from the investigation)

I like to take a holistic view of proceedings haha.

While I am not dismissing Drocs versions of events and I still have his suspect up there in the odds maybe it is reasonable to think that Droc thought he knew what was happening but he might well have been simply wrong. I have definitely shifted to LW though.

I also think there is a slight but reasonable chance that someone totally of the radar could be responsible and that is why there has never been a conviction.

I am quite convinced that LW is their man, until police publicly announce that he is cleared, he will always be my no 1. There is just so little evidence in this case it's just not enough to proceed with a trial after charging someone. They don't want to risk taking it to court without the evidence, bottom line is that they need a confession. Without one the case is stone dead cold.

 

[Bartholemeus]

So you must have a fair idea of who the CSK is now then with all that reading

My money has shifted significantly to LW (thanks to Barts persuasive reasons, which were listed pages back, for why he could well be the man...or men). And I am also thinking that as useless as Macro has been.... GENERALLY police around the world have a fair idea of who is responsible for crimes and maybe that is the reason why they focused on LW so intently and so narrowly for so many years. Now they just cant pin him but the killings have stopped so to some extent they are satisfied (and happy to collect a wage from the investigation)

I like to take a holistic view of proceedings haha.

While I am not dismissing Drocs versions of events and I still have his suspect up there in the odds maybe it is reasonable to think that Droc thought he knew what was happening but he might well have been simply wrong. I have definitely shifted to LW though.

I also think there is a slight but reasonable chance that someone totally of the radar could be responsible and that is why there has never been a conviction.

This is precisely where I am at. While we should all keep an open mind, he still the most likely. There's better suited profiles and better suited vehicles (i.e. taxi) but he's got the best circumstantial evidence. Potentially Stanbury spent 8 years chasing down every little lead into every little nook and cranny and just strengthened their belief that it's most likely LW. In such cases it's rare for the perp not to be one of the main POIs.

The problems with LW

1. DNA. If they have DNA he is ruled out
2. Karra - either they have Karra DNA and he didn't do Karra or CSK, or they have DNA and He didn't do Karra but Karra and CSK aren't linked, or they have lost Karra DNA.
3. The profile doesn't fit. By no means would I rule LW out but there's better profiles going around
4. The car. He had a Hyundai. If reports are true, the CSK used a Commodore.
5. Abduction method. He's either very compelling to get them into his car, or used blitz method, or isn't the CSK.

But there's a reasonable chance they know it's him and have no physical evidence. Murders stopped. Harassed by police but never took legal action.....

 

[CSK?]

with LW the one major thing that struck me as odd (and maybe it is just my perception) but in that current affairs type interview he did, whenever she asked if he was the killer he would never out right say "no i'm not" he would say "I've always said I wasn't". others might not see the difference but to me it just seemed a strange way of denying it.

 

[Bartholemeus]

There's been a lot of media speculation over the last 2 years. Some of that seems to contradict (i.e. police have fibres from JR matching a specific new model commodore which was witnessed by 3 people at a bus stop, but on the other hand police think it was a blitz attack). Noel Coward was asked for DNA before he passed and I have unconfirmed reports that Macro are still taking DNA.

MAP and NSP (know sexual pervert) were mentioned on CIA but the media have never mentioned them since.

Taxi is still the most likely explanation as to how the girls were abducted but police are seemingly at a dead end with this line of inquiry.

There's a lot of contradictions throughout this case. It's fascinating and probably why it gets a lot of interest.

 

[c4rtm4n]

Hey there,

I just signed up after recently reading The Devil's Garden, I've read/skimmed some of the threads about this case and think I have some understanding of people's general theories. I haven't got a clue who did it, but I am certain it can't be all the POI's.

I was thinking about known facts and maybe I am wrong, but from what I can tell the main things we know are 3 women went missing after being out in Claremont, 2 of whose bodies were found at opposing ends of Perth. The killer must have had access to a car of some descrption.

One thing in the book I found interesting was geographical profiling for serial crime. I did some googling and found there is quite a lot about some of the techniques and formulas they use. One such paper is http://www.math.washington.edu/~morrow/mcm/7272.pdf. It discusses 3 methods and a hybrid which I wanted to check out. To summarise they are:

1. Great Circle - take the 2 furthest crime points, find the middle and draw a circle. The idea is the criminal will live within the circle..

2. Centrography - Take the mean of the x coords and y coords of each crime to find the centre of mass for the crimes. However this centre does not take into account that there is often a buffer zone betweeen where a criminal lives and where they operate.

3. Rossmo’s Formula - Criminals won't travel too far to commit crime. There is a buffer zone around criminals residence where crimes are less likely be committed. Probabilty of living based on grid of crimes. I don't really understand the maths.

4. Gaussian Rossmooth - Hybrid of Rossmo's formula - I definitely don't understand this..

Rossmo's Formula requires 5 crimes before it should be used. Unfortunately more crimes means more data points. If we include Claremont and the cemetary rape (was it really CSK?), you could say we had 5 crimes or 3 abductions plus two body sites is 5 too, but since I don't understand the maths........

I don't know the exact loaction of the sites Jane and Ciara were found, nor do we know exactly where they "went missing" so I have taken approximate locations based on what I have read.

Jane -32.264423 115.859806
Ciara -31.584123 115.648691
Claremont -31.982219 115.781233

And I did a hybrid of Great Circle, Centrography and wanted to take into account a buffer zone based on the above 3 points.

The sites Jane and Ciara were found in is 78km apart as the crow flies. This mid point is on west coast highway 71 (WCH) about 200 meters north of The Blvd. The distance between sites by road of an example route via WCH is approx 92.6km. Which is give or take about 101 mins driving according to google maps. The halfway by this route is on WCH somewhere near Rochdale Road. The mean (centrography) of claremont Jane and Ciara is on WCH a couple of hundred meters south of Oceanic Drive.

I've plotted these points here: https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/claremontlocations

And I got out my compass out and did the following:

I originally added in a route via mitchell freeway as google said it was quicker, but after thinking about it, would you really drive into the city after abducting someone, if you didn't have to? I think you would drive carefully at the speed limit on moderately used roads and avoid points of possible congestion (even in the middle of the night).

Taking into account a buffer zone, I wonder if the CSK lives north of City Beach in the 6km radius of the midpoint between Jane and Ciara. (yeah I know, it may as well be half of perth....)

Since, I've just signed up, I haven't been able to see the upload images etc, so if someone has already post this type of thing and I have missed it, I apologise. I found it an interesting exercise nonetheless.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Hypothetical 1

Let's say in 2008 Macro don't have DNA and LW is still #1. What would Macro do? What would you do?

1. Get in a new Macro head and go through the case from top to bottom and rule out suspects
2. Put LW on ice. There's no more evidence going to come to light unless DNA emerges or the souvenirs are recovered.

What happens when the majority of people still on the list are ruled out? What happens when all new leads and theories are chased down until they are either ruled out and taken to a point where it's highly unlikely?

3. Back to square one where LW is still the most likely
4. Find an alternate way to catch him because it's not going to happen using the status quo
5. Use the media to try and unsettle him (give him false confidence etc)
6. Monitor him. Try find out where those souvenirs are.

If it is him, he'll never be caught unless they find those souvenirs (or DNA of course)

Hypothetical 2

Let's say in 2008 they do have DNA and LW and the Usual Suspects have been ruled out. What would Macro do? What would you do?

1. Public campaign (they did this in form of CIA) to try get new leads
2. Started trying to DNA test everyone they can

But what if that turned out empty?

3. More testing
4. Another public campaign (potentially they are doing this through BC) but it's not really enough.


Surely if you have DNA, and no POI and just need to match DNA to get back in the game you need a public appeal.

"We have DNA. We need people to call us regarding information on this, this and this"

Then get a list of new suspects and test them.

But this hasn't happened? Why? Is there a reasonable reason?

 

[c4rtm4n]

Something I find interesting about the CIA doco, is why would they describe the NSP (KSP!?) with gun without any identifaibale characteristics and then describe the MAP as well MAP, well educated, wealthy english parents. Worked with SS and met JR. Why give possibly identifiable details about one POI but not the other?

I also wonder if they know who MM man is. Could MM and the MAP be one and the same?

 

[Peter Kurten]

Hi Cartman,

Thanks for your input and welcome to the thread. I like the way you've put together that data in the diagram. I did a similar thing, only using David Canter's general formula. As opposed to just using geodesic distances. I've integrated behavioural factors into the equation such as initial crime salience, arterial roads, and the fact that the first publicly known disposal site was south, and the north one was an obvious reaction. For your information, the exact centre of the two disposal sites is the front verge of 309 The Boulevard in City Beach. I calculated this using measurements to within the nearest few metres.

Personally, I feel the Karrakatta cemetery is more of a salient clue than anyone thinks. I would classify the offender as a marauder due to the close proximity of the abductions. I also feel that the cemetery is the sort of location that would be difficult to navigate for someone novel, especially at night. I therefore believe that there is some sort of anchor point very close by to the cemetery that has caused the offender to be come familiar with its layout. Perhaps a school, workplace or point of business. I'm using this as a guide to research different people who were active in the area during that period.