Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[c4rtm4n]

<modsnip> If you google the phrase I have in quotes and handle you can find the page.

 

[Bartholemeus]

He didn't say you said it. He said, that you said, old mate said it. Which is correct AFAIK.

Are you able to answer my questions?

 

[Frankie1972]

Sorry, I didn't realise that I was breaking TOS by discussing this. If you google the phrase I have in quotes and handle you can find the page.

sorry I see it now but I have talked to old mate by phone and got the right story

 

[Frankie1972]

He didn't say you said it. He said, that you said, old mate said it. Which is correct AFAIK.

Are you able to answer my questions?

yes I will but I'm at work now

 

[Peter Kurten]

Cartman,

Many witnesses did have to sign documents relating to secrecy with regards to different matters, but it depended on the type of matters they were exposed to. You will find through many old news reports that witnesses often went to the media after speaking to the Police. This in itself is proof that those particular ones did not sign anything.

As for the co-ordinates, I generated those myself from the positions of the crosses left at both sites, of which I have visited personally. I struggle to believe there are any official co-ordinates other than ones taken by some sort of forensic effort by Police.

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/...5e?width=316&api_key=avk63k6qqhrxbfdc3b277sxs

 

[Frankie1972]

Apologies for going over old ground but;

1. What was the sequence of events the next day?
2. When did you realise that the girl you saw walking along the highway had been abducted?
3. How long was the gap in between that night and speaking with police?
4. Did you approach police? All as a group? Or separately? If so, who went first?
5. Did they interview you as a group, separately, or both?
6. Did they try any techniques such as hypnosis?
7. So you told police you saw nothing and would have seen if anything happened?
8. And old mate said he saw CG talking to someone in a white car?
9. Have you ever spoken to old mate and said, "Hey old mate, I'm pretty sure I didn't see anything, are you sure you saw something?"
10. What about the mate 2? What does he think? AFAIR he also didn't see anything. Have you spoken to him about the discrepancy in what you two saw and what old mate said he saw?
11. On how many occasions did police (macro or whatever incarnation) talk to you?
12. Have they asked for your DNA?
13. Are you still in contact with mate 2 and old mate?

1. We just went back to Claremont to pick up old mates car
2. Old mate rang me on the Monday and said do you remember that girl walking passed that night she gone missing
3. That Monday we talked to the police
4. After old mate rang me I called the police, there were 3 cars at my home in 20 mins. Then I tell the police about old mate and they asked if I could call old mate to come over. He was there in 15 mins
5. They interviewed us all separately
6. Yes mate 2 they hypnotise, but nothing came from that.
7. I said to the police I seen a girl walking passed us on the other side of the road with a black dress and white top on
8. After talking to him on the phone recently he said he did not think a car stopped that night, he just remember some brake lights coming on the same way as CG was walking
9. Refer to Q8
10. Mate 2 and myself seen the same thing the girl walking pass in black dress and white top
11. I seen marco about 4/5 times
12. They asked for all the cloths I was wearing that night
13. Just old mate I have not seen mate 2 for about 10 years.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Ok, thanks for your answers.

I'm still not clear on this;

Did old mate tell macro he saw CG talking to a car?

 

[Frankie1972]

Ok, thanks for your answers.

I'm still not clear on this;

Did old mate tell macro he saw CG talking to a car?

i know he done not like talking about that night I'm not sure why, but I will try talking to him again. The last time I talked to old mate he said no car stop that night. But I will try to ask him again about what he said to the police ok

 

[Parkie]

Frankie; You mention the words marco instead of Macro & cloths instead of clothes but you can get separately right.Which a lot of people stuff up. You got the word interviewed right. You don`t have bad English. You are doing it on purpose. You have imposed yourself at least 3 times in my opinion as a friend of a victim, or you were there at the pub or you were at the bus stop. Tell you what, go have a chat to the SCS & get them to confirm you are that you say you are? When you have contacted them, I will phone them up to confirm this. Because this has gone on long enough with you. It is now time you prove it. Call the SCS, Tell them who you are & I will simply ask if you, ARE ACTUALLY one of the Bus Stop boys? We have no need to know your name. But you can prove to us that you are legit. Balls in your court now... Frankie ....

 

[Frankie1972]

Frankie; You mention the words marco instead of Macro & cloths instead of clothes but you can get separately right.Which a lot of people stuff up. You got the word interviewed right. You don`t have bad English. You are doing it on purpose. You have imposed yourself at least 3 times in my opinion as a friend of a victim, or you were there at the pub or you were at the bus stop. Tell you what, go have a chat to the SCS & get them to confirm you are that you say you are? When you have contacted them, I will phone them up to confirm this. Because this has gone on long enough with you. It is now time you prove it. Call the SCS, Tell them who you are & I will simply ask if you, ARE ACTUALLY one of the Bus Stop boys? We have no need to know your name. But you can prove to us that you are legit. Balls in your court now... Frankie ....

im not a friend of the victim.
My English is not good
i only have one profile
i was at the bus stop and conti that night
who is SCS
i have been telling the truth all along
you ring SCS ask then the 3 names of the guys at the bus

 

[Bartholemeus]

I think it's highly unlikely, near impossible that Macro would interview the 3 bus stop guys, only try to hypnotise one, and when told by one guy that he saw CG talking to someone in vehicle that they wouldn't approach the other two immediately and ask if they saw what old mate saw. If old mate did mention the car at any time to police then Frankie would have known because Macro would have asked him if he also saw it. Macro allegedly spoke to Frankie 4 or 5 times and during this time he never ascertained what old mate said to them? Couple that with the other discrepancies and it's beyond reasonable doubt that this is not true. <modsnip>

 

[Parkie]

Frankie you know what scs stands for, its the sucessor of the macro task force. Ring them. Confirm it is you. Then when we call them, they can till you are legit, and not b. S. It is the only way you can prove it Frankie cause you could be anyone....

 

[Parkie]

They can then tell us you are legit, i mean. *

 

[c4rtm4n]

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the explanation and coords, yeah I'm with you, I thought there might have been an address in a newspaper or something..

Here is another paper I've found http://www.investigativepsych.com/encounteranddeath.pdf which is not quite so mathematical as the other one I posted. It uses data based on 54 US caught serial killers with 10 confirmed (charged/convicted first 10) victims. It says that on average the point of first encounter / abduction point (PFE) is usually close to home. The body dump (BD) locations are usually further away, but as the victim count climbs the BD locations get closer to home.... Considering JR was found closer to claremont than CG, I'm not sure if CSK is really near to the average of that study. Not that we should expect so anyway.

Some quotes from the paper:

The mean distance serial killers traveled from their home bases to abduct the first victims in the series was 0.5 miles. The mean distance serial killers traveled from their home bases to abduct their tenth victims was 0.2 miles.

The mean for all the first body dump locations was 24.5 miles and the mean fo rall the tenth body dump ten locations was 0.4 miles from the offender&#8217;s home.

It also says that 28% of victims in the study were prostitutes, none of the known CSK victims were.

92% didn't know their victims.
3% were friends..
1% were family..
4% barely knew the victim (incluiding one way acquaintances)

Here is something else I found. It is Australian.. written years ago but interesting based on what we know.... http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/mapping/catalano.pdf

 

[Bartholemeus]

Geo-location

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/mapping/catalano.pdf

Found a great paper by a guy from UWA. He uses methods that are simplified adaptations on the work of leading geo-location experts such as Rossmo and Godwin and Canter etc (these guys were mentioned by Cartman a few pages back). Typically you need a GIS to feed specific case based information in to get some intelligence. This guy has simplifiedm the process and showed some of his workings.

I only read the Green River material as the rest focuses on trying to determine where an offender will strike next. Not really relevant at this stage.

This paper has no date but Ridgeway is never mentioned and the author has an altavista email address. Ridgeway was arrested in 2001 and the author references material from 1999 so this paper was likely written in around 2000.
Some interesting excerpts from the paper:

Dietze et al (1990) found that serial murderers often spent a great deal of time driving around as a form of recreation and prelude to criminal activity

Creepy

As disposal sites are most likely pre-determined, or at least the offender would tend to exercise more control over their selection it is more likely that abduction sites will be influenced by available time

I think it's the other way around with the CSK. Yes the disposal sites are predetermined but a large part of the choice would be based on time and distance. I can't see a time related difference between Subiaco, Fremantle and Claremont. Maybe Fremantle is a bit bigger and harder to find women without someone else being around? But Subiaco - not much different to Claremont. Clubs open to similar times.

One of the fundamental problems with the previous analysis was that it assumed that the offender determined the crime sites. However, given that the victims were prostitutes working common areas, abduction sites were more likely due to this than the offender&#8217;s choice.

This rings true with CSK assuming he had some fascination with Claremont. I'm sure he would have preferred to get his victims from the Rowe Park type place but knew he had to get closer to the action to increase the chance of coming across a victim on his hunting nights.

The model uses &#8220;doughnut&#8221; buffers around each abduction site. The &#8220;hole&#8221; represents the area where it is assumed that the offender will not act because it is too close to his residence. The &#8220;dough&#8221; is the distance within which the offender is prepared to travel and act. The distances selected are in accord with those from the literature, though subjectively scaled to take into account the distances between the abduction and disposal sites and local driving times

Unfortunately we don't have access to empirical data so any reference to a buffer zone and killer residence zone is a guess.

Green River, Star Lake and Auburn are isolated areas that are too far from The Strip for &#8220;dates&#8221; and suggest some local knowledge and are classified as individual.

Ridgeway lived in Auburn.

In analysing this pattern, the first consideration was that of the routes between abduction sites and disposal sites. Map 2 shows the approximate route frequency between abduction and disposal sites.

Have a look at Map 2 where the most common route bottlenecks to less common routes - Auburn.

If the offender was attempting to minimise travel distance between abductions and disposal sites, then he would need to have been residing somewhere along Pacific Highway South between Riverton Heights and Federal Way (see also Map 1).

Pretty god damn close

Kent stands out as the most likely location of the offender. Auburn is the second most likely candidate from this list

Ridgeway lived in Auburn

Abduction sites, which make up half of the data, appear more related to the victims&#8217; behaviour and say little about the offender&#8217;s activities.

Good to know

 

[Parkie]

Bartho the CSk was not worried unless seen, inmo that is. If someone was annoying him too much, he would do something about it. He would do something about it. Something he has done before going by what happened in Lane way behind H`j`s. He would have had a gutsfull of the ***** & decided they have given enough clues and annoyances for him to snap...

 

[Parkie]

Bartho, what did the CSK hate? Was it old rich money & their kids? Did they defend him in a lawsuit & charge huge money for little work? Or maybe it was the Lions Eye Institute who refused to believe in what he said. Who was it that was left in bushland near the bypass?

 

[Bartholemeus]

The main thing I take out of Catalano's article is;

1. The disposal sites rather than the abduction sites give us more clues to the killer's location. The killer has to go to where his prey is but he typically chooses the disposal sites
2. Rational decision making based around reducing the amount of time and distance between abduction and disposal.

I will further add my own assumptions

3. The CSK used rational decision making in determining his dump sites based on;
a. Time he had before sunrise to either dispose of the body or arrive back home (parents, wife, gf etc). This would have limited how far out of the city he could have travelled and he would have had to consider his drive home

b. He wanted to have the best possible chance of maximising the time before the bodies were discovered, taking into account point a.

c. He want to drop CG exactly 180 degrees from JR using The Conti as an axis. My best guess for this is not confuse investigators.




So he has limited time but wants to drop his victims far enough out to increase early discovery. The more efficient his routes are (abduction > ritual location > disposal location > back home) the further out he can drop the bodies. Or maybe the more time he can have with then at the ritual location. So he has to be efficient.

The whole 180 degree thing suggests he is central. Cartman pointed out around the Floreat area is central. I think anywhere inside the Golden Triangle is central enough.

Let's say the CSK lives at Padbury. For CG; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Eglington > Padbury. That's approximately 92km. For JR; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Wellard > Padbury 104km

Let's say the CSK lives in Kardinya. For CG: For CG; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Eglington > Kardinya. That's approximately 120km. For JR; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Wellard > Kardinya 74km



So;

For the CSK to live South of the River there's a massive discrepency in travel time. It would be quicker for him to go East (over the other side of Albany Hwy).
For the CSK to live North of the River there's more leeway but as soon as you go not much further North than Claremont you have to start questioning why he would have dropped JR South (remember at this stage bodies hadn't been found).

When you live in the Golden Triangle you generally consider South being a slightly quicker way out of the city.

I lean towards this being why he dumped JR South and then to confuse investigators he swapped to 180 degree to the North while still being able to adhere to his disposal parameters. I very much think the CSK lives in the golden triangle, if not slightly to the north (City Beach, Floreat etc)

I'd love to know where SS is because it might give us an idea why he chose his first disposal site.

 

[Parkie]

fu2.

& / Roe

 

[Parkie]

Was it the Tallow Co. side or the other side of Roe.. Sorry, just playing games. No one helps me.. Not even Minister Hames...Hey Kim Hames...