Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[Parkie]

No I don`t Barth. But who is it off the Roe Hgy, near the bypass.? Love a nice ten thous...

 

[billywhizz]

Bartho, what did the CSK hate? Was it old rich money & their kids? Did they defend him in a lawsuit & charge huge money for little work? Or maybe it was the Lions Eye Institute who refused to believe in what he said. Who was it that was left in bushland near the bypass?

Can you tell us about Roe Highway, you obviously know?

You in the past have claimed you have a dodgy eye and visit the Lions Eye Institute.

You are attention seeking again.

<modsnip>

 

[billywhizz]

He would have had a gutsfull of the ***** & decided they have given enough clues and annoyances for him to snap...

Who is they? Who has given enough clues for the CSK to snap?

 

[billywhizz]

The main thing I take out of Catalano's article is;

1. The disposal sites rather than the abduction sites give us more clues to the killer's location. The killer has to go to where his prey is but he typically chooses the disposal sites
2. Rational decision making based around reducing the amount of time and distance between abduction and disposal.

I will further add my own assumptions

3. The CSK used rational decision making in determining his dump sites based on;
a. Time he had before sunrise to either dispose of the body or arrive back home (parents, wife, gf etc). This would have limited how far out of the city he could have travelled and he would have had to consider his drive home

b. He wanted to have the best possible chance of maximising the time before the bodies were discovered, taking into account point a.

c. He want to drop CG exactly 180 degrees from JR using The Conti as an axis. My best guess for this is not confuse investigators.




So he has limited time but wants to drop his victims far enough out to increase early discovery. The more efficient his routes are (abduction > ritual location > disposal location > back home) the further out he can drop the bodies. Or maybe the more time he can have with then at the ritual location. So he has to be efficient.

The whole 180 degree thing suggests he is central. Cartman pointed out around the Floreat area is central. I think anywhere inside the Golden Triangle is central enough.

Let's say the CSK lives at Padbury. For CG; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Eglington > Padbury. That's approximately 92km. For JR; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Wellard > Padbury 104km

Let's say the CSK lives in Kardinya. For CG: For CG; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Eglington > Kardinya. That's approximately 120km. For JR; Claremont > Ritual site (macro think close by) > Wellard > Kardinya 74km



So;

For the CSK to live South of the River there's a massive discrepency in travel time. It would be quicker for him to go East (over the other side of Albany Hwy).
For the CSK to live North of the River there's more leeway but as soon as you go not much further North than Claremont you have to start questioning why he would have dropped JR South (remember at this stage bodies hadn't been found).

When you live in the Golden Triangle you generally consider South being a slightly quicker way out of the city.

I lean towards this being why he dumped JR South and then to confuse investigators he swapped to 180 degree to the North while still being able to adhere to his disposal parameters. I very much think the CSK lives in the golden triangle, if not slightly to the north (City Beach, Floreat etc)

I'd love to know where SS is because it might give us an idea why he chose his first disposal site.

Thanks

Keen to know why sunrise? If CSK had a wife, huge risk that she might wake up during night. Same with parents. I don't think being back by sunrise would minimise this risk, it is still huge.
There is also the dirty taxi spotted in Eglinton, if that person was returning home they would not have made it by sunrise.

I think JR was most likely put in a place where the killer could regularly drive past, on way to a holiday home or similar (if living in golden triangle). Basically someone that owned multiple properties, one of which could also be an inbetween site.
CG was just to lead investigators away from the above I feel.

You would not drop JR further from home and then CG closer to home. CG location etc. would have been to get attention further away from that location and looking for other bodies in same area as JR. SS probably similar location to JR

I doubt CSK trying to form a pentragram with body locations as that would fail if not all are found. CSK would be contacting police with information trying to get the bodies found so that people can connect the dots and form the pentagram.

 

[Parkie]

Who is they? Who has given enough clues for the CSK to snap?

31 34 964 approx./ 115 40 493 Eglington to 32 16 261 115 51 541 Wellard. Well that goes thru the top corner of the Conti pub to scare ya heaps.. In fact if you go to the exact co ords you will find it might go right thru the Pub.INMO. Maybe the bottom of the stairwell...Who knows.

 

[Parkie]

Billy I feel there is someone near the Roe corner. Could smell him for 2 months 3 years ago or more. Was not the Tellow plant. Bit hard to look atm.

 

[Parkie]

It might be 5 to 6 yrs ago now. There was a Midland guy who came into $10,000. Legally that is. Prob from a rellies will. Anyways him & that money is missing. But I used to smell something just nth of Roe & the Bypass. Whether it is the Bellevue side or the Military rd side I don`t know. But for about 3 weeks I could smell it.Look it up.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Double post

 

[CSK?]

Bart, That report you posted about dump sites e.t.c a few pages back, also with the comment about a percentage of serial killers liked driving around... did that get you thinking of LW? I'm not familiar with Perth, is Cottesloe part of that area? it also mentioned first victims being dumped a lot closer to home e.tc wasn't julie cutler (presumed first victim according to articles) found near Cottesloe also?

If only we could link LW to a commodore!

PAPERTRAIL how is that write up you were doing on LW coming along? would love to see what you have on him.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Keen to know why sunrise?

1. Firstly, because it's too risky to dump a body during daylight. It has been previously discussed that SS was taken at 2:06am and sunrise on that day was 5:36am. That's 3.5 hours to have her dumped before sunrise. Given she hasn't been found it's possible she was either taken further out of the city or buried (which takes time). If our guy had to go a step further and get home by sunrise then the time he has decreases significantly.

2. Whether the CSK has had to get home by sunrise is unknown. He may have made a wife, girlfiend or parents who were at home.

If CSK had a wife, huge risk that she might wake up during night. Same with parents. I don't think being back by sunrise would minimise this risk, it is still huge.

They could have been away. I think if CSK had a wife or live in gf then she had to be away at the time. With parents - he's an adult and can probably say he was out all night with friends etc.

Unless it's LW. Domineering mother who would be asking questions. But consider this - LW went out every Thurs to Sun night at specific times. My recollection is he only left the house when his parents went to bed. So if he's going out like this is reasonable he's occasionally doing it for longer periods. But I'd assume Lancey would have to be back tucked in by sunrise.

There is also the dirty taxi spotted in Eglinton, if that person was returning home they would not have made it by sunrise.

Because possibly he only needed to dump the body by sunrise and coming home in the light was not a problem. If you think I've been saying the CSK would have had to be home by the sunrise then you are mistaken. Could be either. Only one thing is quite obvious - he has to dump the bodies before sunrise.

I think JR was most likely put in a place where the killer could regularly drive past, on way to a holiday home or similar (if living in golden triangle). Basically someone that owned multiple properties, one of which could also be an inbetween site.

Maybe. But generally people only acquire a property portfolio with age. PW had 19 of them but I'm sure if he had any out that way they would have been searched.

CG was just to lead investigators away from the above I feel.

I agree and also think the location of CG (straight line through Conti) is not a coincidence and done to confuse investigators, but there's still the issue of time.

Sunrise was 6:16 am. CG was abducted right on midnight. He still had to do what he needed to do and either dump the body or be back home by 6:16am. There's also the theory that serial killers will act rationally and limit their travel. If he wanted to throw investigators why not go to the forest areas on the eastern side of Albany Hwy? The best answer is he lives in an area where the quickest route to the outskirts of the city is south, and when he has to dump another body in a different area, his best option is North. The area that best fits that description is Claremont and the surrounding suburbs.

Also take into account the the CSK has chosen one location for his killings. Once there was media attention he could have switched up to Subiaco, Fremantle, Vic Park or a number of suburban areas with night clubs. But he didn't. Something tied him to Claremont. Would a guy who lives in Cannington, Thornlie, Boorogoon etc stick to Claremont? Possible, but unlikely.

I know Birnie's favourite patch was Stirling Hwy when he lived SOR but he was undetected until caught. There wasn't a media spotlight on that area regarding abductions. Given Birnie has probably done other murders in other areas he would have probably switched up had thei been a media spotlight. But not our CSK. Claremont or bust for him.

You would not drop JR further from home and then CG closer to home. CG location etc. would have been to get attention further away from that location and looking for other bodies in same area as JR. SS probably similar location to JR

I agree. If the CSK does or did live in the golden triangle then JR is closer. It's probably the one place NOR where it's quicker to hit the city limits going South (as opposed to North or East).

I doubt CSK trying to form a pentragram with body locations as that would fail if not all are found. CSK would be contacting police with information trying to get the bodies found so that people can connect the dots and form the pentagram.

Crabstick and AngelJoan are the only posters considering this sort of stuff.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Bart, That report you posted about dump sites e.t.c a few pages back, also with the comment about a percentage of serial killers liked driving around... did that get you thinking of LW?

Cartman posted some interesting stuff on geo-location. It's quite complex (calculus) and really they're talking about the theory behind GIS (Geographic Information Systems) algorythms. Essentially computer programs where you enter in a heap of assumptions and data based on your specific case and the algorythms spit out potential location likelyhoods. Part of the algorythms contain empirical data based on behavious or captured serial killers. We don't have easy access to this data, nor do we have some of the important data regarding the CSK case.

I did a quick bit of research and stumbled across that Catalano paper (as did Cartman). Upon digesting it I noticed it was quite accurate and then applied the prinples to the CSK case but added some other variable that I think are relevant.

The part about the driving - yep, I immediately thought of LW who did a lot of driving and stalking.

I'm not familiar with Perth, is Cottesloe part of that area? it also mentioned first victims being dumped a lot closer to home e.tc wasn't julie cutler (presumed first victim according to articles) found near Cottesloe also?

It's the neighbouring suburb. Generally the patrons of the Claremont nightlife area live in Dalkeith, Nedlands, Claremont, Swanbourne, Cottesloe and Mosman Park.

The thing about Julie Cutler is we don't know if it was the killer who dumped her car in the surf. Very risky. We also don't know where the body is. Did it go in the water and get taken by a shark? Was it dumped elsewhere and then the car dumped?

If only we could link LW to a commodore!

Almost impossible this late in the piece. Macro accused him early on of hiring a car for SS so they would have checked every car hire place in Perth and come up with nothing. His parents owned a service station so he may have had access to cars there but why would a brand new Commodore be at a service station getting a service?

 

[Frankie1972]

Frankie; You mention the words marco instead of Macro & cloths instead of clothes but you can get separately right.Which a lot of people stuff up. You got the word interviewed right. You don`t have bad English. You are doing it on purpose. You have imposed yourself at least 3 times in my opinion as a friend of a victim, or you were there at the pub or you were at the bus stop. Tell you what, go have a chat to the SCS & get them to confirm you are that you say you are? When you have contacted them, I will phone them up to confirm this. Because this has gone on long enough with you. It is now time you prove it. Call the SCS, Tell them who you are & I will simply ask if you, ARE ACTUALLY one of the Bus Stop boys? We have no need to know your name. But you can prove to us that you are legit. Balls in your court now... Frankie ....

perkie they are not going to give you confidential information. Any smart people would know that.

 

[Frankie1972]

Bart, That report you posted about dump sites e.t.c a few pages back, also with the comment about a percentage of serial killers liked driving around... did that get you thinking of LW? I'm not familiar with Perth, is Cottesloe part of that area? it also mentioned first victims being dumped a lot closer to home e.tc wasn't julie cutler (presumed first victim according to articles) found near Cottesloe also?

If only we could link LW to a commodore!

PAPERTRAIL how is that write up you were doing on LW coming along? would love to see what you have on him.

why you say if you can link LW to a commodore

 

[Frankie1972]

Billy I feel there is someone near the Roe corner. Could smell him for 2 months 3 years ago or more. Was not the Tellow plant. Bit hard to look atm.

I hope you informed macro? Could be the brake through they are looking for. Good job perkie

 

[Frankie1972]

1. Firstly, because it's too risky to dump a body during daylight. It has been previously discussed that SS was taken at 2:06am and sunrise on that day was 5:36am. That's 3.5 hours to have her dumped before sunrise. Given she hasn't been found it's possible she was either taken further out of the city or buried (which takes time). If our guy had to go a step further and get home by sunrise then the time he has decreases significantly.

2. Whether the CSK has had to get home by sunrise is unknown. He may have made a wife, girlfiend or parents who were at home.



They could have been away. I think if CSK had a wife or live in gf then she had to be away at the time. With parents - he's an adult and can probably say he was out all night with friends etc.

Unless it's LW. Domineering mother who would be asking questions. But consider this - LW went out every Thurs to Sun night at specific times. My recollection is he only left the house when his parents went to bed. So if he's going out like this is reasonable he's occasionally doing it for longer periods. But I'd assume Lancey would have to be back tucked in by sunrise.


Because possibly he only needed to dump the body by sunrise and coming home in the light was not a problem. If you think I've been saying the CSK would have had to be home by the sunrise then you are mistaken. Could be either. Only one thing is quite obvious - he has to dump the bodies before sunrise.



Maybe. But generally people only acquire a property portfolio with age. PW had 19 of them but I'm sure if he had any out that way they would have been searched.


I agree and also think the location of CG (straight line through Conti) is not a coincidence and done to confuse investigators, but there's still the issue of time.

Sunrise was 6:16 am. CG was abducted right on midnight. He still had to do what he needed to do and either dump the body or be back home by 6:16am. There's also the theory that serial killers will act rationally and limit their travel. If he wanted to throw investigators why not go to the forest areas on the eastern side of Albany Hwy? The best answer is he lives in an area where the quickest route to the outskirts of the city is south, and when he has to dump another body in a different area, his best option is North. The area that best fits that description is Claremont and the surrounding suburbs.

Also take into account the the CSK has chosen one location for his killings. Once there was media attention he could have switched up to Subiaco, Fremantle, Vic Park or a number of suburban areas with night clubs. But he didn't. Something tied him to Claremont. Would a guy who lives in Cannington, Thornlie, Boorogoon etc stick to Claremont? Possible, but unlikely.

I know Birnie's favourite patch was Stirling Hwy when he lived SOR but he was undetected until caught. There wasn't a media spotlight on that area regarding abductions. Given Birnie has probably done other murders in other areas he would have probably switched up had thei been a media spotlight. But not our CSK. Claremont or bust for him.




I agree. If the CSK does or did live in the golden triangle then JR is closer. It's probably the one place NOR where it's quicker to hit the city limits going South (as opposed to North or East).


Crabstick and AngelJoan are the only posters considering this sort of stuff.

you say LW only went out when his parents went to bed. Is that a fact or what you think

 

[Frankie1972]

1. Firstly, because it's too risky to dump a body during daylight. It has been previously discussed that SS was taken at 2:06am and sunrise on that day was 5:36am. That's 3.5 hours to have her dumped before sunrise. Given she hasn't been found it's possible she was either taken further out of the city or buried (which takes time). If our guy had to go a step further and get home by sunrise then the time he has decreases significantly.

2. Whether the CSK has had to get home by sunrise is unknown. He may have made a wife, girlfiend or parents who were at home.



They could have been away. I think if CSK had a wife or live in gf then she had to be away at the time. With parents - he's an adult and can probably say he was out all night with friends etc.

Unless it's LW. Domineering mother who would be asking questions. But consider this - LW went out every Thurs to Sun night at specific times. My recollection is he only left the house when his parents went to bed. So if he's going out like this is reasonable he's occasionally doing it for longer periods. But I'd assume Lancey would have to be back tucked in by sunrise.


Because possibly he only needed to dump the body by sunrise and coming home in the light was not a problem. If you think I've been saying the CSK would have had to be home by the sunrise then you are mistaken. Could be either. Only one thing is quite obvious - he has to dump the bodies before sunrise.



Maybe. But generally people only acquire a property portfolio with age. PW had 19 of them but I'm sure if he had any out that way they would have been searched.


I agree and also think the location of CG (straight line through Conti) is not a coincidence and done to confuse investigators, but there's still the issue of time.

Sunrise was 6:16 am. CG was abducted right on midnight. He still had to do what he needed to do and either dump the body or be back home by 6:16am. There's also the theory that serial killers will act rationally and limit their travel. If he wanted to throw investigators why not go to the forest areas on the eastern side of Albany Hwy? The best answer is he lives in an area where the quickest route to the outskirts of the city is south, and when he has to dump another body in a different area, his best option is North. The area that best fits that description is Claremont and the surrounding suburbs.

Also take into account the the CSK has chosen one location for his killings. Once there was media attention he could have switched up to Subiaco, Fremantle, Vic Park or a number of suburban areas with night clubs. But he didn't. Something tied him to Claremont. Would a guy who lives in Cannington, Thornlie, Boorogoon etc stick to Claremont? Possible, but unlikely.

I know Birnie's favourite patch was Stirling Hwy when he lived SOR but he was undetected until caught. There wasn't a media spotlight on that area regarding abductions. Given Birnie has probably done other murders in other areas he would have probably switched up had thei been a media spotlight. But not our CSK. Claremont or bust for him.




I agree. If the CSK does or did live in the golden triangle then JR is closer. It's probably the one place NOR where it's quicker to hit the city limits going South (as opposed to North or East).


Crabstick and AngelJoan are the only posters considering this sort of stuff.

CG was not Abducted at midnight, I seen her walking down Stirling hwy at 12.20 am. Please check your information before posting. Thanks

 

[Frankie1972]

All you have to do Frankie is call the SCS up. They will have all your details. Confirm that you are you. That`s it. We can phone them up & ask if you really are who you say you are. That being one of the Burger boys who saw CG. But you can`t do that can you Frankie. I think everyone has come to the conclusion that you are not one of the Burger boys at all but just a troll. Because one of the real trio would say; I can prove it & do it. Yep, a troll pretending to be one of the burger boys. Billy or Barth had to call out the girl who reconed she was at Iona & couldn`t answer his questions either. A yearbook or google couldn`t help her either. You are full of it Frankie.

They will not give you confidential information. You should try calling them and asked the 3 guys name,then I will confirm the names to you. You will not do that because they will not give you the informations. I think you should tell macro what you smelled 5/ 6 years ago. Your really on to some think it's could be the brake thought that Australia has been waiting for. So well done to you Perkie australia thanks you for your information

 

[billywhizz]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...k=03618acb95ecbaaf6fc6978b38d5df14-1466611534

EXTENSIVE analysis of the alleged Salt Creek backpacker kidnapper’s possessions has revealed “highly relevant” material, a court has heard — before placing more suppressions on the case.

On Tuesday, the Adelaide Magistrates Court was told of major developments in the case against the southern suburbs man, 60, whose identity cannot be reported.

However, a new set of suppression orders prohibits The Advertiser from reporting that information.

The man, 60, has yet to plead to charges of attempted murder, rape, aggravated cause serious harm and detaining a person to commit an indictable offence in February this year.



this might even end up being the guy. a victim was possibly hit with a hammer

 

[billywhizz]

ok. Claremont. regarding the blitz attack theory-

perhaps the reason it's Claremont and not other night spots in Perth is because of that phone box in that particular location. SS and CG both disappeared from a few metres near it. perhaps CSK was in that carpark out the back of the tunnel and hanging around there most nights. Perhaps even roams around Claremont and finds a victim to follow back to the designated blitz location point. this would allow to notice whether a police presence also, and perhaps Karrkatta victim was also followed back to Rowe park. After this abduction went public the location was changed.

SS was first, and he actually let her start the call and order a taxi because he was nervous.
Realising mistake he gets JR before she rings taxi. Same with CG. (*making an assumption that JR made it to the phone box)

This would explain why JR so soon after SS, and why nothing until CG. She was probably the only woman who had walked around Claremont after dark for a long time.

The phone box on Bay View terrace could also have been tampered with, forcing people to use the phone box on Stirling Rd.

Similar to Pipidinny Rd and Woolcoot Rd, the phonebox gives a vantage point of traffic approaching from all directions.

If working as a duo one person could work as a spotter. In this location one would just hang out waiting to blitz attack while the other guy drove up and diverted the victims attention.

If we are to believe Frankie and CG wasn't really seen talking to the occupants of a vehicle... Then what about the three guys that also saw SS standing on that side of the road and a car driving up? Did that even happen?

The public appeal for info about these vehicles doesn't seem to have been made in the early days, but maybe it was.

If Karrakatta rapist had shoulder length hair you can pretty much rule out military, navy, police, possibly most professional careers? If they were professional then perhaps recently fired etc and had let themselves go.

 

[Bartholemeus]

perhaps the reason it's Claremont and not other night spots in Perth is because of that phone box in that particular location. SS and CG both disappeared from a few metres near it. perhaps CSK was in that carpark out the back of the tunnel and hanging around there most nights. Perhaps even roams around Claremont and finds a victim to follow back to the designated blitz location point.

There's a number of problems with this;

1. There's better spots. 2 unit blocks over looks that car park.
2. After JR the media coverage was heavy. One would need a very compelling reason not to change patch.
3. It doesn't make sense for the CSK to allow SS to cross the road. This to me all but rules out car park blitz attack.
4. The CG car sighting didn't hit the media until 2008. Might not be true. But I think SS car was mentioned early (can anyone clarify either way?) If so, probably accurate info.
5. Did CG cross the road to use phone? Maybe.

Similar to Pipidinny Rd and Woolcoot Rd, the phonebox gives a vantage point of traffic approaching from all directions.

Not that it matters but there is no such vantage point from Woolcoot.

If we are to believe Frankie and CG wasn't really seen talking to the occupants of a vehicle... Then what about the three guys that also saw SS standing on that side of the road and a car driving up? Did that even happen?

The public appeal for info about these vehicles doesn't seem to have been made in the early days, but maybe it was.

I recall confirming CG was never public until 2008 which casts some doubt. Unsure about SS car though? Anyone know?

Not sure what advantage they would have by lying though?