Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #6

[Bartholemeus]

Do all the pick up points of the girls follow a "bog lap" of the area?

Would be interesting to know if the police managed to locate any cars that were seen more than once in the footage on the night of CG pickup.
They would be high on my list even more so if it was a white vs commodore

Nope. It's not really a "bog lap" area like say Fremantle or Northbridge. JR was last seen outside Conti which maybe some guys might drive past. The other two spots are remote and if someone was doing laps, not really. Maybe SS.

As for military - certainly a possibility but Conti and Club were not hot spots for military guys.

 

[crabstick]

Do you have evidence to say otherwise?
A rape victim runs naked through the doors of a hospital straight from the crime within 5 minutes and there is no DNA? Sorry, but its true. And the link between the rape victim and the CSK crime is well documented in the provided links.
Police are DNA testing everyone they identify in the pub video. That is as late as last year that I know of. If you are not sure, you are welcome to ring them yourself.

The Post has reported police have forensic evidence linking Ciara Glennon's killer with a rapist who abducted a 17-year-old woman from a Claremont street then raped her in Karrakatta Cemetery in 1995.

The young woman had left Club Bay View shortly after midnight and was walking to a friend's house when she was abducted, taken to the cemetery, raped and released, The Post reported.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...vestigate-1995-rape-lead-20151016-gkaq8i.html
Title search: Claremont serial killer case: WA Police investigate 1995 rape lead
Date: October 16 2015, Emma Young
Online: 22 Oct 2016, Status: Non Paywall, Time: 10:15pm AEST

Sorry, but this is not necessarily true.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Honestly..I don't know! It sickens me to think what could be going through these vile minds!
How far would a SK go to gain power and control? How long is a piece of string?
I guess we're only going to get that insight if the offender is caught.

The Claremont murders were specific - a certain type of girl from a specific area. I'm struggling to see he would change area, abduct a pre-pubescent boy, * and use a different method to kill. Less that 1% chance IMO.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Do you have evidence to say otherwise?
A rape victim runs naked through the doors of a hospital and there is no DNA? Sorry, but its true. And the link between the rape victim and the CSK crime is well documented in the provided links.
Police are DNA testing everyone they identify in the pub video. That is as late as last year. If you are not sure, ring them yourself.

1. No I don't but I never claimed I did.
2. Whilst I'm quite sure they have Karra DNA, I'm not 100%.
3. The forensic link between Karra and CG is claimed to be DNA. Police have neither confirmed nor denied. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that supports the No DNA theory.
4. You don't know they are testing everyone who was in the Conti. Even if they were, it doesn't necessarily mean they have DNA. Afterall, the tested 2500 taxi drivers when they didn't have DNA.
5. I highly doubt police would tell a random calling in that they are testing everyone for DNA.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Did you forget about Brett Cowen? He certainly chased skirt having married and had a child with her, yet he was still preoccupied with young boys.
Then there are these...

Lot's of pedophiles are married. But in private they're not running around chasing skirt because they're actually interested in young boys.

Daniel Seibert
Convicted of 1979 manslaughter; killed ten people across America in three months in mid-1980s including two children and a Southside Slayer victim.

As I said - his main gig was adult women. The two kids he killed were the children of one of his adult female victims.

Personally, I don't think there is enough evidence to say the CSK is responsible for GR..but there isn't enough evidence to rule him out either. Stalemate!

I haven't ruled it out. Just saying the chances are extremely thin.

It get brought up every now and then and the only rationale is "they were dumped not far from each other and it happened a few months after CG". Nothing else really matches.

 

[crabstick]

I wonder if Moreys reference to Christian was Bret Christian of The Post?

Did Sarah McMahon know too much? Sarah McMahon buying $10000 worth amphetamine might know a few customers and what went on working 600 metres up the road from Bay View tce?

Where the hell is Morey getting enough amphetamine to sell $10000 lots at a time? Who has $10000 lots of amphetamine? That is not a small player.

Early on in the investigation Mr Morey claimed that in the last conversation he had with Ms McMahon she told him that she was meeting a nurse or doctor called Christine or
Christian and that they intended going to the casino that night. It was suggested by counsel assisting at the inquest, Mr Urquhart, that this account may have been fabricated by Mr Morey, based on incorrect information which it appears may have been conveyed to him by Patricia McMahon, Sarah McMahon’s mother, in the days after the disappearance. [p22]

It would appear, he may be connected to our DNA guy. He has the skill sets, borrows cars, bags full of strangulation device, sells large sums of amphetamine, and serving prison for murder.
If he was SAS, then he would be trained in all the attributes needed in abduction and murder. One of his skills is mechanic, and he worked for an east west trucking company.
But whose DNA do the police have? An associate? Because we will presume a conviction means he has been DNA tested. Unless he is arrested on his way out of prison?
Just wondering who Christian might have been Morey was stating McMahon was going to the casino with? Our recent body in the suitcase lady from Mosman park went the casino, with possible money laundering activity, Maybe McMahon was going to casino laundering with someone, It does appear a manifested alias of Morey. Maybe it was a pseudonym for something else?
According to a key witness, McMahon was buying $10000 sums of amphetamine off Morey. McMahon was working only 700 metres from the Claremont abduction area. Where was she doing business? In 2000 and prior for that matter in Claremont?
If McMahon was in Claremont, Morey must of been in Claremont. It does state it in the inquest he was in Nedlands next door. We have an alleged highly trained serial killer in the area with the skills to build fake taxi, drive it through sand, and abduct, at the time.
http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Mcmahon_finding.pdf [22]

 

[crabstick]

Was the wire used to tie the girls up, not telephone cable, but reticulation cable used in sprinkler reticulation? They look similar. Sarah McMahon worked at Hugall and Hoile? Was our Karrakatta rape victim a reticulation installer in a van?

source: pressreader.com

 

[crabstick]

There is the proof of DNA testing. And suggestions Kerry Turner may have fallen victim. (Dark Blue DATSUN 260z)

According to The Subiaco Post, police believe the killer used a mid-1990s white Holden Commodore VS series 1 to abduct and kill at least two of his victims.

They have linked fibres found on Jane Rimmer's body to the upholstery of a car matching that description.

The newspaper also reports the killer had some link to screen-printing and had a way of "printing coloured words and patterns on fabric such as T-shirts".

After years of apparent inaction on the unsolved case, these are the latest clues to be revealed by the Post, which identified a link between the killer and the rape of a woman in Karrakatta Cemetery in October.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...w-clues-on-murderers-car-20151204-glfnot.html

 

[CSK?]

Ironically, Karrakatta cemetery is not far from two military training facilities.
If someone was going to abduct girls on their own, they would need some pretty good training.
How do you get a full grown adult in a vehicle on your own in middle Claremont, 200 metres from Club Bay View then drive off?
Military trained might do it. Although Im wondering if Morey was actually SAS. I have a feeling he was impersonating his capacity to scare people. Plenty do it.
You try get a 25 year old girl in a taxi on your own via abduction. I feel at least Sarah entered a taxi under the premise she was entering a taxi then someone has lept out behind the station wagon (luggage bay) back seat and strangled her.
Im going to speculate there was not a single vehicle used in the abductions.
Potentially swapped vehicles in each case.
Police need to reinterview the Karrakatta to see what else.
Karrakatta victim had a bag put overhead?
Sounds military.
Wonder if DM borrowed a van from the truck yard for Karrakatta?
He obviously had all the tools.

I've never had any form of armed services/self defense/martial arts training in my life but i'm pretty sure if I wanted too I could quite easily blitz attack and abduct most women/girls within a minute either by brute force or absolute compliance because of fear.

 

[elastic]

They don't know it was a panel van. Could have been a van van. Those ones with the sliding side doors.

Thinks about it; victim is bagged and can't see attacker or car. Thinks it's a van, maybe a pv. There is no way of distinguishing it to be a PV. If she thought she was in a roomy area - could be a van, pv or hilux. If there was a drop tray could be a pv, could be a hilux. Unless she saw the vehicle, it would be impossible to tell.

Bart,

They do have a very good idea it was a panel van. Remember the victim walked passed the panel van first which was parked in a nearby car park before she was abducted further down the road. It has been claimed that this panel van was the car that abducted her. There is a newspaper article detailing this very detail as fact. So if the car was seen, then they know there was a panel van parked near the abduction, the only thing they do not know with any certainty is whether that Panel Van was the car used in the abduction. I think they must have worked out that she felt like she had been transfered and carried to this van and have determined it to be the car used in the Karrakatta abduction.

I can not find the news paper article but I think it may be one of the post articles. It definitely said she walked passed a panel van parked in a car park before she was abducted though.

Police were checking all panel van owners 3-5 years ago so I assume the panel van must now be considered fact in the police circles.

 

[CSK?]

I'm with Bart on this one, although it does happen and it is possible, I think the chances of the CSK going from good looking upper class young women from an affluent area to an 11 year old boy is extremely unlikely. The CSK either has a link to Claremont or to the type of victims found there or else he would be taking the easy route of abducting and murdering common prostitutes which would be a safer bet against being caught.

Does anyone have any idea what exactly Lance Williams job entailed? I know it was to do with roads, so wouldn't this give him the skill set to dump the bodies at the locations bisecting the abduction area opposed to the common theory of someone in the armed services?

I'm too lazy to search through 6 threads so does anyone recall off the top of their head an estimated date of when LW's close friend died, and what was the cause of death?

 

[elastic]

I don't have a problem with you posting here. I don't have a problem with your theories (unless the MLC is yours which I've been unable to check so far because the search engine on this platform is poor). As for your theories aligning with the media (it's one guy rather than the media by and large), I've never seen one that assumes the CSK was a speed addict, strangulation, blunt force trauma, or that they were tied up, or anything recent that assumes a panel van was used.

As for your panel van DNA testing story, I'm not definitely discounting it but you have to admit there are some serious flaws in it. Perhaps you can explain why you have only now decided to bring this to the table? It's not as if it hasn't been talked about.

Bart, The bolded part, Blunt force trauma, this could be a punch, a whack in the head with an object, or even whacked in the head with a fire poker.... I know you are a fan of the fire poker theory, so tell me again why you have never heard of blunt force trauma when you have most definitely heard the fire poker rumour. I am not ruling in or out fire poker, but I beleive an object was used for at least one of the victims.

 

[elastic]

Bart,

They do have a very good idea it was a panel van. Remember the victim walked passed the panel van first which was parked in a nearby car park before she was abducted further down the road. It has been claimed that this panel van was the car that abducted her. There is a newspaper article detailing this very detail as fact. So if the car was seen, then they know there was a panel van parked near the abduction, the only thing they do not know with any certainty is whether that Panel Van was the car used in the abduction. I think they must have worked out that she felt like she had been transfered and carried to this van and have determined it to be the car used in the Karrakatta abduction.

I can not find the news paper article but I think it may be one of the post articles. It definitely said she walked passed a panel van parked in a car park before she was abducted though.

Police were checking all panel van owners 3-5 years ago so I assume the panel van must now be considered fact in the police circles.

Just so you dont think I am lying about this here is the post article:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/54883877/to-serial-killer/47

"The 1995 Karrakatta victim described being abducted in a white panel van that was waiting in Claremont's Rowe Park, opposite the showgrounds subway" QUOTE FROM THE POST ARTICLE DECEMBER 5th 2015

The karrakatta victim was able to identify the colour of the panel van, and she saw the panel van, its a panel van.

 

[Bartholemeus]

There is the proof of DNA testing.

There is only one person claiming there is DNA. The link you provided gives that person as their source.

Typically with journalism, when one outlet breaks a story the rest follow and uncover more info. They go to their sources and confirm Intel and get new info. Not in this case though. Not one media outlet was able to uncover anything.

Police have refused to confirm or deny.

Therefore, at this stage, there's not really enough proof to be sure they have DNA.

And suggestions Kerry Turner may have fallen victim. (Dark Blue DATSUN 260z)

Can you provide a link please. Not saying it doesn't exist, just want to understand the context of the theory.

 

[Mo Joe]

I believe they have. Police have said numerous times that they don't believe any other murders are linked (including SM). Whether that's accurate or not is another story.

Please provide evidence of the Police saying that GR is not connected.

 

[elastic]

With Sarah McMahon, it is almost 100% certain that she was killed by Donald Morey, he has been all but proven guilty of killing her, he was an associate of hers, called her from the same area she went missing from within hours of her going missing, was nabbed for an attempted murder of another women some years later and at a coroners inquest into Sarah's disappearance swore black and blue that Sarah was still alive and that he knew where she was overseas but for her safety (or something along those lines) couldn't divulge this info to anyone. Sarah McMahon is not linked to the CSK whatsoever.

Kerry Turner is a different story altogether, I think she could make a great fit as an early CSK victim based on her having been out clubbing and being found dumped miles away, I'm not sure what police know that haven't had them ever publicly link the case in anyway but the circumstances do seem awfully familiar.

The CSK had 3 known victims in a space of about 20 months, this murder frequency is some what rare in a budding serial killer, I won't make up a stat but I know a good portion of serial killers have had their first kill 4 - 8 years prior to the murders picking up pace. Julie Cutler in 1988 would be a nice fit as a 'first kill' in terms of time frame, and if LW is in fact the CSK then that would almost be certain considering his links to her.

I hadn't really paid any attention to the Kerry Turner case and certainly had no idea of the circumstances surrounding her disappearance, so thank you crabstick for bringing that to my attention, certainly gives me something to put a little further research into.

Donald Morey is due for release this year, and he may have already been released. I don't think there will be any official announcement when he is released. But we will have another serial killer on the loose here in WA if the courts do let him out. I wonder who will be stupid enough to sign off Morey's release.

Keep an eye out for any missing woman once he is released, he will undoubtedly kill again, and given he is a seasoned hardened killer, he will probably get away with it.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Bart,

They do have a very good idea it was a panel van. Remember the victim walked passed the panel van first which was parked in a nearby car park before she was abducted further down the road. It has been claimed that this panel van was the car that abducted her. There is a newspaper article detailing this very detail as fact.

I recall the article saying it might have been a pv. In what context exactly I don't recall.

But to suggest this is necessarily fact is flawed. Every large media story has incorrect facts reported, especially at the start.

It may have been a pv.

 

[elastic]

Originally Posted by Bartholemeus
I believe they have. Police have said numerous times that they don't believe any other murders are linked (including SM). Whether that's accurate or not is another story.

Please provide evidence of the Police saying that GR is not connected.

There were reports the Police were actively looking into up to 20 unsolved historical missing persons and murder cases for links. So this information is a direct contradiction to the information Bart has produced.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Please provide evidence of the Police saying that GR is not connected.

why should I do this? I have never claimed there's irrefutable evidence they 're not connected. I have said it's extremely unlikely - which it is.

 

[elastic]

I recall the article saying it might have been a pv. In what context exactly I don't recall.

But to suggest this is necessarily fact is flawed. Every large media story has incorrect facts reported, especially at the start.

It may have been a pv.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/54883877/to-serial-killer/47

Above is the newspaper article direct link.

Here is the direct quote:

"The 1995 Karrakatta victim described being abducted in a white panel van that was waiting in Claremont's Rowe Park, opposite the showgrounds subway" QUOTE FROM THE POST ARTICLE DECEMBER 5th 2015

This was published in the Post December 5th 2015