Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #13

[Spinnaker]

IMO Around 1997/1988 the CSK makes a couple of clever strategic moves, He stops abducting girls from Claremont and leaves WAPOL to focus on the attention seeking buffoon LW.
He also aquires a wife complete with an" instafamily " young child, which elevates him from a brooding ,quiet ,recently divorced , 30 i'sh single, to a nondescript, married ,montage paying , doting young father ,- just one, amongst tens of thousands in the State.
It could not have worked out better for him.
He possibly returns to his old original stomping ground of the Perth CBD for a victim, LB and is no doubt delighted when WAPOL go to great lengths to flatly deny her disappearance is connected to the feared CSK.
The next year LG in Kalgoorlie fits his classic MO- young lady alone after a night of clubbing -and this disappearance is written off as "bikie related".
The rat- cunning of this offender should be underestimated. Apart from the KK rape ,where he must have gone very , very close to being unexpectedly caught, by some unknown event, he has shown the ability to adapt, move around, and confound investigators time, after time.
I think he will be shown to be right up there with Milat in terms of being one of being one of Australias worst serial killers.
All JMO and theory,

Going over some earlier posts and found this very good post from 7SJ707 (or should we call him/her 007 ).

Just want to discuss LB who went missing on Tuesday 10 November, 1998. The below was taken from GROK's excellent timeline posted at below link:

LB:
Lived: Maylands, Parents lived Huntingdale
Relationship: Lived with boyfriend
Worked: Sex Worker Northbridge
Schools: Huntingdale Primary and Kalamunda High School

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Media-Timelines-Photos-*NO-DISCUSSION*/page9

One thing which really stands out for me is the fact that LB parents lived in Huntingdale. Is it possible that BRE knows LB or knows of her. Or perhaps has seen LB in the area, at the local shops etc .. and started stalking her?

Would be very good to know how close BRE's house/s are in relation to LB's parents or if there is a connection in the area. Perhaps LB's path crossed with BRE's. I think this connection is too close to ignore.

https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/wa/brown-lisa

EDIT: The above all IMO.

 

[lampformypath]

Here's an interesting site with a lot of information on a various cases. You'll need to scan right down to find all the stuff about CSK, but something that I read about the May, 1996 attack on the poor 21 year old woman that had her head bashed against a wall, I haven't read before. This bloke smashed her head 6 times against a wall, that's incredible anger and attempted murder I would think? If it's the alleged CSK that tells me that he more than likely just punched our girls the minute they got in the car, no suave charm here once he'd had them, blitzed, total shock/semi-conscious, driven out of there and then restrained and taken from car, I think to Karrakatta cemetery, did whatever horrible things, then onward to the drop off point, east, south, north. JMO.


"1996 (May 3): Woman (21) indecently assaulted in laneway behind Club Bayview. 2am assailant ripped her skirt off and her head was bashed against a wall six times before she fled."
http://awn.bz/ClaremontSerialKillings2.html
There's some interesting posts too at the bottom, some from our WS pages!

 

[MissUnderstood]

Just pure speculation and MOO...i believe with SS if BRE is responsible, she was hidden particularly well....with JR / CG he possibly became blasé...hoping they would be found...more notoriety..more publicity...liked the attention media reports gave him. Made him feel important, ego boost.

I'm thinking this way too. He may have taken time and buried her or covered her really well. Maybe he didn't have time with the others and just put them out in the open. Maybe he felt a little guilty that Sarah's family was in so much pain from her disappearance that he left the others where they would be found. Who knows how such a mind works! All my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Spinnaker]

I'm thinking this way too. He may have taken time and buried her or covered her really well. Maybe he didn't have time with the others and just put them out in the open. Maybe he felt a little guilty that Sarah's family was in so much pain from her disappearance that he left the others where they would be found. Who knows how such a mind works! All my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perhaps he took SS to Karrakatta to do his horrible deeds and Lo and behold there was a convenient, freshly dug grave that he utilised on this occasion. Being an opportunist and also perhaps inexperienced at this point he used this opportunity.

Perhaps he then went on to plan his D sites.

Agree we can't fathom how his mind works re guilt, ego etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Careful people, going off topic here a bit! Might have to sit in the naughty chair! Back to CSK sleuthing.... onward.....!

yes we have to maintain the integrity of this thread.....
I agree......


......and like a previous poster suggested, I also thought about Paull's Valley and Mundaring Weir area as possible locations of victims' remains.

 

[pauldking]

I know Paulls Valley like the back of my hand. Now is the time to walk the bush land whilst the firmament is nice and moist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DRT]

Hi.

First time poster here. I have been reading this site since early this year mainly due to the lack of MSM and because I found I was doing the same analysis as people on this site after BRE was caught. While I no longer live in WA but visit there still I am now wary of visiting Mundaring with the Thylacine on the loose, Nannup Tiger and Alien trout that don't go on the BBQ.

In all seriousness, if there is a pattern in determining where SS is, the issues we have is that she was the first missing and normally in establishing a pattern you need 3 occurrences to confirm a theory. Numbers 1 2 could be numerical and go to 3 or each number could be doubling and the next in the pattern could be 4.

The Perth area has a lot of bushland and if there is no pattern then its random or the straight line theory.

I don't seem to have been much help but when I looked at theories through the many threads, it hit me on the head as to why no one could determine a positive area.

 

[lampformypath]

I know Paulls Valley like the back of my hand. Now is the time to walk the bush land whilst the firmament is nice and moist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Believe it or not I have a "coincidence" with Paulls Valley,(not relevant to CSK case), but when it popped up here I went, ok here we go again. So I've been looking into how far to each D site for JR and CG and then how far to Paulls Valley for possible SS, in our East/South/North theory.

SS - KK is 44 minutes (39.3 klms) from Paulls Valley
JR - KK is 32 minutes (41.4 klms) from Woolcoot Road, Wellard
CG - KK is 46 minutes (54.6 klms) from Pipidinny Road, Eglinton

All near enough to 40 minutes, under an hour, pre-planned perhaps? Thinking, thinking.... And how is the straight line theory going "Spooks", or anyone else who has such abilities to plot??? The alleged CSK has a "technical" mind, so plotting/mapping would be quite natural for him I would expect. And I'm trying to find it, but didn't CGE post some photos of 4WD trip in Mundaring and mention going marron fishing there previously, or do I have my wires crossed?

 

[justified]

Could you elaborate on the sequencing/patterns please. Found that interesting but not quite grasping it. Thanks!

 

[pauldking]

Hi.

First time poster here. I have been reading this site since early this year mainly due to the lack of MSM and because I found I was doing the same analysis as people on this site after BRE was caught. While I no longer live in WA but visit there still I am now wary of visiting Mundaring with the Thylacine on the loose, Nannup Tiger and Alien trout that don't go on the BBQ.

In all seriousness, if there is a pattern in determining where SS is, the issues we have is that she was the first missing and normally in establishing a pattern you need 3 occurrences to confirm a theory. Numbers 1 2 could be numerical and go to 3 or each number could be doubling and the next in the pattern could be 4.

The Perth area has a lot of bushland and if there is no pattern then its random or the straight line theory.

I don't seem to have been much help but when I looked at theories through the many threads, it hit me on the head as to why no one could determine a positive area.

'
You can download a trial version from the following link that applies Rossmo's formula. I am unaware if this can be applied in partial retrospection but worth a crack if you're keen:

http://geographicprofiling.com/products/

 

[DRT]

Could you elaborate on the sequencing/patterns please. Found that interesting but not quite grasping it. Thanks!

I guess I am saying there are too many unknowns to make a positive assumption as much as we would all like to solve this.

Normally for a pattern to form you need 3 occurrences. The first in the sequence on the assumption that SS is the first murdered victim has an unknown location. The second in sequence being JR is Woolcoot Road, Wellard and CG third in the sequence Pipidinny Road, Eglinton.

If you look at the straight line theory using Claremont as another point, you could assume that SS is on the same line, but how many kms away.

If you maybe say SS is at a T junction to Claremont based on those sequences. I don't pretend to know where that would be maybe an equilateral triangle.

We also have unknowns of if there are other deceased victims that could make it a square or other patterns.

 

[Molly Dooker]

'
You can download a trial version from the following link that applies Rossmo's formula. I am unaware if this can be applied in partial retrospection but worth a crack if you're keen:

http://geographicprofiling.com/products/

Perhaps we could crowdfund some software...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[b4u]

SS - KK is 44 minutes (39.3 klms) from Paulls Valley
JR - KK is 32 minutes (41.4 klms) from Woolcoot Road, Wellard
CG - KK is 46 minutes (54.6 klms) from Pipidinny Road, Eglinton

Maybe the CSK stopped off for a midnight snack at Hungry Jacks Claremont before his attacks.

With the CSK's originating close to a Hungry Jacks,
and since there are no Hungry Jacks at either of the above 2 locations,
you could be on the money with the theory that a third victim of the same killer might be found in Paulls Valley where there are also no Hungry Jacks.

Either that, or the CSK had some plumbing or attention deficit issues which required remediation every 46 minutes or less.

 

[petedavo.au]

Maybe the CSK stopped off for a midnight snack at Hungry Jacks Claremont before his attacks.

With the CSK's originating close to a Hungry Jacks,
and since there are no Hungry Jacks at either of the above 2 locations,
you could be on the money with the theory that a third victim of the same killer might be found in Paulls Valley where there are also no Hungry Jacks.

Either that, or the CSK had some plumbing or attention deficit issues which required remediation every 46 minutes or less.

How long before a large coke makes you want to take a wizz, would depend a lot upon the time after consuming a whopper meal and the time of abduction. But all jokes aside, has the owners of HJs gone through their credit card transactions for each night and come up with a list of the same cards being used on all three known abductions? Or BEEs banking records? It's worth a shot and might determine how far he traveled.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[lampformypath]

I guess I am saying there are too many unknowns to make a positive assumption as much as we would all like to solve this.

Normally for a pattern to form you need 3 occurrences. The first in the sequence on the assumption that SS is the first murdered victim has an unknown location. The second in sequence being JR is Woolcoot Road, Wellard and CG third in the sequence Pipidinny Road, Eglinton.

If you look at the straight line theory using Claremont as another point, you could assume that SS is on the same line, but how many kms away.

If you maybe say SS is at a T junction to Claremont based on those sequences. I don't pretend to know where that would be maybe an equilateral triangle.

We also have unknowns of if there are other deceased victims that could make it a square or other patterns.

Thanks DRT for all this, not my forte, but trying to help as best I can. What if we take JC as first victim as per information below (Bolded by me):
[h=2]"Possible related cases[edit][/h]It has also been suggested by Liam Bartlett, a journalist, that Sarah Spiers was not the first victim.[SUP][3][/SUP] He wrote that police have told the father of a fourth missing woman, 22-year-old Julie Cutler, that his daughter was probably a victim of the Claremont killer.
Ms. Cutler, a university student, from Fremantle, vanished after leaving a staff function at the Parmelia Hilton Hotel in Perth at 9pm, one night in 1988. Her car was found in the surf near the groyne at Cottesloe Beach two days later. Her fate is also unknown."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders

This would mean that the CSK waited another 8 years after this murder to kill again, I don't really think so, but who knows. Of course this would be the West part of the straight line theory, very close by, but he was younger and perhaps new at this macabre "game", or maybe he didn't plan it at all, just started with this one and then thought he'd better go in different directions after this and head opposite of West and so on? And perhaps there are more victims at each point of the compass that haven't been found? Strange that police would tell JCs father that his daughter was "probably" a victim of CSK even though there was such a big time lapse between this and the Claremont killings? Why would they relate this one and not one of the other many missing women?

 

[pauldking]

Thanks DRT for all this, not my forte, but trying to help as best I can. What if we take JC as first victim as per information below (Bolded by me):
"Possible related cases[edit]

It has also been suggested by Liam Bartlett, a journalist, that Sarah Spiers was not the first victim.[SUP][3][/SUP] He wrote that police have told the father of a fourth missing woman, 22-year-old Julie Cutler, that his daughter was probably a victim of the Claremont killer.
Ms. Cutler, a university student, from Fremantle, vanished after leaving a staff function at the Parmelia Hilton Hotel in Perth at 9pm, one night in 1988. Her car was found in the surf near the groyne at Cottesloe Beach two days later. Her fate is also unknown."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders

This would mean that the CSK waited another 8 years after this murder to kill again, I don't really think so, but who knows. Of course this would be the West part of the straight line theory, very close by, but he was younger and perhaps new at this macabre "game", or maybe he didn't plan it at all, just started with this one and then thought he'd better go in different directions after this and head opposite of West and so on? And perhaps there are more victims at each point of the compass that haven't been found? Strange that police would tell JCs father that his daughter was "probably" a victim of CSK even though there was such a big time lapse between this and the Claremont killings? Why would they relate this one and not one of the other many missing women?

So JC to CG is 46.5 km`s ? One radian is 57.29 degrees as you will know.

 

[CP345]

Thanks DRT for all this, not my forte, but trying to help as best I can. What if we take JC as first victim as per information below (Bolded by me):
[h=2]"Possible related cases[edit][/h]It has also been suggested by Liam Bartlett, a journalist, that Sarah Spiers was not the first victim.[SUP][3][/SUP] He wrote that police have told the father of a fourth missing woman, 22-year-old Julie Cutler, that his daughter was probably a victim of the Claremont killer.
Ms. Cutler, a university student, from Fremantle, vanished after leaving a staff function at the Parmelia Hilton Hotel in Perth at 9pm, one night in 1988. Her car was found in the surf near the groyne at Cottesloe Beach two days later. Her fate is also unknown."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders

This would mean that the CSK waited another 8 years after this murder to kill again, I don't really think so, but who knows. Of course this would be the West part of the straight line theory, very close by, but he was younger and perhaps new at this macabre "game", or maybe he didn't plan it at all, just started with this one and then thought he'd better go in different directions after this and head opposite of West and so on? And perhaps there are more victims at each point of the compass that haven't been found? Strange that police would tell JCs father that his daughter was "probably" a victim of CSK even though there was such a big time lapse between this and the Claremont killings? Why would they relate this one and not one of the other many missing women?

As to why the police said this to the parents of Julie I'm not sure but you have to remember this was before BE was arrested. Knowing what we know about what BE was up to in 88 I'd say the same police no longer believe it. BE was a 19 year old living at home and just starting out in his alleged crimes. I sincerely think he wouldn't have been involved in the confounding Cutler disappearance leaving no clues at the same time he was climbing in windows, waking up victims then running off leaving a kimono with his DNA on it.

 

[apoptosisfutz]

I guess I am saying there are too many unknowns to make a positive assumption as much as we would all like to solve this.

Normally for a pattern to form you need 3 occurrences. The first in the sequence on the assumption that SS is the first murdered victim has an unknown location. The second in sequence being JR is Woolcoot Road, Wellard and CG third in the sequence Pipidinny Road, Eglinton.

If you look at the straight line theory using Claremont as another point, you could assume that SS is on the same line, but how many kms away.

If you maybe say SS is at a T junction to Claremont based on those sequences. I don't pretend to know where that would be maybe an equilateral triangle.

We also have unknowns of if there are other deceased victims that could make it a square or other patterns.

What if KK rape is counted as number 1?

 

[Falco120]

If SS was in a shallow grave in bushland and therefore she's been there for 20 years. What would happen to the body if a bush fire had gone through? Would there be anything left?

 

[lampformypath]

So JC to CG is 46.5 km`s ? One radian is 57.29 degrees as you will know.

Say what??? Remember I am a "bear of little brain" like Pooh Bear! Maths is not my subject, now English composition, ah, loved that! Sorry Pauldking, please explaaain?