Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

[Innerchild]

Newtons theories have nothing to do with working out how far a car might travel in surf, Almost certainly the car would have sunk very close to where it entered the water.

Even though the units are Newtons to try to figure out if a car would somehow travel you need buoyancy calculated on density, volume and water displacement. 11,000N down and 1,146N upward.

Apologies PSC for any misunderstanding as I was using Newtons theories of forces to work out how much force was needed to cause the damage to the car and to work out how the car could have entered the water. It just shows most of the theories put out have to defy the laws of physics to have occured.
I'll put a summary next. The police thought the JC case was linked and IMO it's the start of BRE's killings.

I think using Newtons theory to work out how far a car would travel into the surf is just silly. Imo the police thought that the JC case was linked to the CSK. But someone tried to run her off the road. Her flat got broken into & her purse was found at home. IMo I'd say she had a jilted lover.

 

[Innerchild]

 

[Innerchild]

 

[Innerchild]

Stretch of wet sand on the left and behind car, indicates tide going back out (high tide 10 - 11 am) and probably afternoon. Next high tide 24 hours later. Most likely water police would have been involved and experienced and had divers if necessary, but professional tow operators involved. IMO they were towing car in as tide was coming in and using the height of the tide to help bring Fiat in as far as possible with water. Car pulled onto wheels when tide started to go out, if it was upside down at all.

 

[Innerchild]

There is not much about JC’s disappearance that makes sense and the police seemed distracted soon after by a phone call asking to be left alone and a murder on the 27th June and for a while seemed to treat case as a disappearance. However it could have been evidence found or analysed at a later date that made them realise that JC may have been a victim of CSK. This seems like a planned abduction. According to reports she has been followed, house broken into, and possible knowledge of where she worked and where she would be that night. There was a man and women seen leaving by a witness about the same time as JC, they were asked to come forward and no one ever did. If the male and female seen were working together the stronger male could have overpowered JC, unlocked the back door and held her there while the female drove. They could have driven her in her car to a place where I think the planner(s) of the abduction were waiting. IMO this was possibly where CSK committed his first murder. The car was then driven with the female (or another) to dispose of it in the ocean at Cott. However IMO they realised that they couldn’t get it in the water, so took the back seat out which possibly had blood or evidence on it and threw it off the end of groyne. The back seat washed up south of Cott beach later that day, Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June. This followed prevalent tide and coastal drift patterns.They then needed to hide the car in a garage or under tarpaulin, picked up BRE’s car and drove to city to pick up the car they left at abduction site. They take a plastic bag containing the work uniform, which they leave at the Kebab (or coffee) shop while eat / coffee. (The plastic bag is handed into and put in lost property where it stays for around a year until the manager realises it may belong to JC). They take own cars and separate. They have to decide how to dispose of JC’s car. They or BRE could drive it to many locations, bush, plantations, lakes, quarries, but the car ends up at Cottesloe beach, spotted on Wednesday morning. This is probably the most difficult option they could have chosen and defies reasonable logic. We all make assumptions but IMO almost certainly the car was not driven into the water from any of the scenarios using calculations of forces on the car and the damage the car sustained.

 

[petedavo.au]

Construction on Tonkin/Champion Lakes started late 2003, so def could have been entered by CSK and other undesirables prior to that. Would have thought you'd need a 4WD though


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There's a hell of a lot of vacant land along Passmore St / Verna St which isn't bitumen all along. Looks like a lot of heavily used tracks in there. Appears to be easily negotiable with 2wd. But I reckon if anything was there it'd be found by now. Tracks are too well used.
And too close to the accused home means a local might recognise him if they sprung him disposing of stuff.

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[Canning Vale]

There's a hell of a lot of vacant land along Passmore St / Verna St which isn't bitumen all along. Looks like a lot of heavily used tracks in there. Appears to be easily negotiable with 2wd. But I reckon if anything was there it'd be found by now. Tracks are too well used.
And too close to the accused home means a local might recognise him if they sprung him disposing of stuff.

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The land around that area does look quite sparse. Most of it has fencing like it's a farm. There's cows on some of the land.

 

[petedavo.au]

The land around that area does look quite sparse. Most of it has fencing like it's a farm. There's cows on some of the land.

IMO, other dump sites indicate the accused was putting as much distance as he thought would do between the dump site and anything about him. I'd doubt he'd use anywhere near Huntingdale.

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[petedavo.au]

There is not much about JC’s disappearance that makes sense and the police seemed distracted soon after by a phone call asking to be left alone and a murder on the 27th June and for a while seemed to treat case as a disappearance. However it could have been evidence found or analysed at a later date that made them realise that JC may have been a victim of CSK. This seems like a planned abduction. According to reports she has been followed, house broken into, and possible knowledge of where she worked and where she would be that night. There was a man and women seen leaving by a witness about the same time as JC, they were asked to come forward and no one ever did. If the male and female seen were working together the stronger male could have overpowered JC, unlocked the back door and held her there while the female drove. They could have driven her in her car to a place where I think the planner(s) of the abduction were waiting. IMO this was possibly where CSK committed his first murder. The car was then driven with the female (or another) to dispose of it in the ocean at Cott. However IMO they realised that they couldn’t get it in the water, so took the back seat out which possibly had blood or evidence on it and threw it off the end of groyne. The back seat washed up south of Cott beach later that day, Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June. This followed prevalent tide and coastal drift patterns.They then needed to hide the car in a garage or under tarpaulin, picked up BRE’s car and drove to city to pick up the car they left at abduction site. They take a plastic bag containing the work uniform, which they leave at the Kebab (or coffee) shop while eat / coffee. (The plastic bag is handed into and put in lost property where it stays for around a year until the manager realises it may belong to JC). They take own cars and separate. They have to decide how to dispose of JC’s car. They or BRE could drive it to many locations, bush, plantations, lakes, quarries, but the car ends up at Cottesloe beach, spotted on Wednesday morning. This is probably the most difficult option they could have chosen and defies reasonable logic. We all make assumptions but IMO almost certainly the car was not driven into the water from any of the scenarios using calculations of forces on the car and the damage the car sustained.

Being a hotel, the man and woman may have been overseas guests, and might never of made the connection to this case, if they had ever seen reports overseas. And why bother with her car at all, or the bag of clothes?
Maybe there'd be more luck with the police checking for disgruntled ex boyfriends who may have blamed her car being more important than him? Or a neighbour who had a dispute about parking? Or a road rage maniac who had the means to harass her and when he saw the car again on the fateful night, managed to stop her this time?
None of the reports says that Julie recognised the driver, yet she apparently described him to her sister.
An outside (unlikely) possibility is that she was abducted at Cottesloe, and later on some unrelated *advertiser censored* finding the car in the carport with the passenger door unlocked, pushed her car into the sea for his jollies and has ever since been too scared to come forward for being fingered for her disappearance?
Who knows?
I've been searching MSM for parking disputes gone ugly, and road rage incidents ending in murder. Too many

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[Canning Vale]

IMO, other dump sites indicate the accused was putting as much distance as he thought would do between the dump site and anything about him. I'd doubt he'd use anywhere near Huntingdale.

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BRE would know Huntingdale and the surrounding area very well. When he was younger he probably rode miles on his push-bike, discovering what's on the local farmland. He'd know where any old wells, standpipes or mine shafts were located. I don't think he's overly clever, just lucky that he wasn't caught sooner.

 

[DRT]

Being a hotel, the man and woman may have been overseas guests, and might never of made the connection to this case, if they had ever seen reports overseas. And why bother with her car at all, or the bag of clothes?
Maybe there'd be more luck with the police checking for disgruntled ex boyfriends who may have blamed her car being more important than him? Or a neighbour who had a dispute about parking? Or a road rage maniac who had the means to harass her and when he saw the car again on the fateful night, managed to stop her this time?
None of the reports says that Julie recognised the driver, yet she apparently described him to her sister.
An outside (unlikely) possibility is that she was abducted at Cottesloe, and later on some unrelated *advertiser censored* finding the car in the carport with the passenger door unlocked, pushed her car into the sea for his jollies and has ever since been too scared to come forward for being fingered for her disappearance?
Who knows?
I've been searching MSM for parking disputes gone ugly, and road rage incidents ending in murder. Too many

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Airports used to be a popular place to dump cars. If you were going to kidnap someone and make it look like they chose to be missing it would be a good place to leave it. Now with numberplate recognition at the airport it has lost popularity.

An earlier poster in this thread mentioned the possibility of the car being put into the surf by kids as a prank. If you were to do that for a car where the owner turns out to be missing you are not likely to confess IMO.

 

[Canning Vale]

Airports used to be a popular place to dump cars. If you were going to kidnap someone and make it look like they chose to be missing it would be a good place to leave it. Now with numberplate recognition at the airport it has lost popularity.

An earlier poster in this thread mentioned the possibility of the car being put into the surf by kids as a prank. If you were to do that for a car where the owner turns out to be missing you are not likely to confess IMO.

As a teenager, I had friends who pushed someone's small car to the opposite side of the hotel - we thought it was hilarious. The same person put a small car on the footbridge over leach Hwy. However, pushing a car into the ocean isn't funny it's really nasty and quite dramatic!

 

[petedavo.au]

Airports used to be a popular place to dump cars. If you were going to kidnap someone and make it look like they chose to be missing it would be a good place to leave it. Now with numberplate recognition at the airport it has lost popularity.

An earlier poster in this thread mentioned the possibility of the car being put into the surf by kids as a prank. If you were to do that for a car where the owner turns out to be missing you are not likely to confess IMO.

The only nag I have with the prank idea, is the rear seat and the ignition/lights being on.
Which leads me back to... why bother with the car at all?
Unless a dumb attempt to make it look like suicide.
Or whoever disposed of it hated the car, as much as the driver.
Why the ocean? Proximity to their own getaway? Home, vehicle or workplace probably within walking distance.

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[Marples]

Good Question. I see where you are coming from re the long term vexxing question of how victims were lured into the vehicle. IMO the CSK whover he may be was possibly wearing a shirt or a uniform during a couple of the abductions- but not a Telstra Technician one-it would have been" too close to home" if something went awry.
These were highly valued Public Sector "jobs for life". So when the guys were moonlighting second jobs that they really cared little about in the long term scheme of things, they often neglected to mention who they were employed full time by, so if ther was any sort of trouble, dismissal for theft or bad behaviour, no word of it would get back to their real employer, who technically they should have informed and asked permission before starting the second job.
I find the " student" who worked " part time in Hospitality" while driving a brand new Commodore particulary interesting- it is exactly the sort of cover story a public sector employee might invent to stop new aquintances having the chance to report suspicious or antisocial/illegal behaviours back to an valued employer.

Unsure if anyone answered this for you but my step dad worked for Telstra in Qld through the 90's and yes, they did have a uniform [emoji4]


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[petedavo.au]

Good Question. I see where you are coming from re the long term vexxing question of how victims were lured into the vehicle. IMO the CSK whover he may be was possibly wearing a shirt or a uniform during a couple of the abductions- but not a Telstra Technician one-it would have been" too close to home" if something went awry.
These were highly valued Public Sector "jobs for life". So when the guys were moonlighting second jobs that they really cared little about in the long term scheme of things, they often neglected to mention who they were employed full time by, so if ther was any sort of trouble, dismissal for theft or bad behaviour, no word of it would get back to their real employer, who technically they should have informed and asked permission before starting the second job.
I find the " student" who worked " part time in Hospitality" while driving a brand new Commodore particulary interesting- it is exactly the sort of cover story a public sector employee might invent to stop new aquintances having the chance to report suspicious or antisocial/illegal behaviours back to an valued employer.

When going through the West's archives, I did find a Fisheries Officer uniform was reported stolen from an address in Huntingdale, but that was long after the CSKs and after BRE had moved to Kewdale. I know of a Police uniform shirt being purloined by a copper's brother and used in a GROK stunt back in 1990's, I've also seen brand new company uniforms being sold at Good Sammy's too, so it's not beyond the realm of possibilities.

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[JoWa]

Being a hotel, the man and woman may have been overseas guests, and might never of made the connection to this case, if they had ever seen reports overseas. And why bother with her car at all, or the bag of clothes?
Maybe there'd be more luck with the police checking for disgruntled ex boyfriends who may have blamed her car being more important than him? Or a neighbour who had a dispute about parking? Or a road rage maniac who had the means to harass her and when he saw the car again on the fateful night, managed to stop her this time?
None of the reports says that Julie recognised the driver, yet she apparently described him to her sister.
An outside (unlikely) possibility is that she was abducted at Cottesloe, and later on some unrelated *advertiser censored* finding the car in the carport with the passenger door unlocked, pushed her car into the sea for his jollies and has ever since been too scared to come forward for being fingered for her disappearance?
Who knows?
I've been searching MSM for parking disputes gone ugly, and road rage incidents ending in murder. Too many

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Or maybe someone was chasing her again, she drives off the road (away from where it was found) at high speed, rolls it down a rocky embankment into the sea. The back seat floating loose and out the back window before the roof is fully caved in. She tries to swim out the window but doesn't make it to shore, body is never recovered.


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[JoWa]

There is not much about JC’s disappearance that makes sense and the police seemed distracted soon after by a phone call asking to be left alone and a murder on the 27th June and for a while seemed to treat case as a disappearance. However it could have been evidence found or analysed at a later date that made them realise that JC may have been a victim of CSK. This seems like a planned abduction. According to reports she has been followed, house broken into, and possible knowledge of where she worked and where she would be that night. There was a man and women seen leaving by a witness about the same time as JC, they were asked to come forward and no one ever did. If the male and female seen were working together the stronger male could have overpowered JC, unlocked the back door and held her there while the female drove. They could have driven her in her car to a place where I think the planner(s) of the abduction were waiting. IMO this was possibly where CSK committed his first murder. The car was then driven with the female (or another) to dispose of it in the ocean at Cott. However IMO they realised that they couldn’t get it in the water, so took the back seat out which possibly had blood or evidence on it and threw it off the end of groyne. The back seat washed up south of Cott beach later that day, Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June. This followed prevalent tide and coastal drift patterns.They then needed to hide the car in a garage or under tarpaulin, picked up BRE’s car and drove to city to pick up the car they left at abduction site. They take a plastic bag containing the work uniform, which they leave at the Kebab (or coffee) shop while eat / coffee. (The plastic bag is handed into and put in lost property where it stays for around a year until the manager realises it may belong to JC). They take own cars and separate. They have to decide how to dispose of JC’s car. They or BRE could drive it to many locations, bush, plantations, lakes, quarries, but the car ends up at Cottesloe beach, spotted on Wednesday morning. This is probably the most difficult option they could have chosen and defies reasonable logic. We all make assumptions but IMO almost certainly the car was not driven into the water from any of the scenarios using calculations of forces on the car and the damage the car sustained.

Maybe you could talk to some panel beaters or crash investigators for help with your calculations. Theory is never the same as real life, there are too many variables. Also maybe surf lifesavers that work at the Cottesloe club could help you with information about ocean conditions and what effect they may have on a car.


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[petedavo.au]

Innocent man convicted after DNA bungle

EXCLUSIVE, Grant TaylorThursday, 27 April 2017 12:50AM

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/dna-debacle-ng-b88456639z

The victim initially protested his innocence to police but later agreed to plead guilty on the advice of his lawyer who apparently told him that no one was likely to believe him and that he risked a prison sentence if he went to trial.

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[Canning Vale]

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/dna-debacle-ng-b88456639z



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If there's doubt with the DNA evidence, not all jurors will have the confidence to convict.

 

[petedavo.au]

If there's doubt with the DNA evidence, not all jurors will have the confidence to convict.

If there's reasonable doubt, the prosecution won't use it, as it will get thrown out by the Judge. And if that is all they got, then the brief will become a nolle prosequi

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