Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

[Kambo]

There are quite a few articles at the time mentioning that the car was likely/ driven off the Cottesloe groyne - I am starting to think that this is correct. Perhaps the BLF (Brave Little Fiat) flipped over and hit the rocks of the groyne going down. This impact and the force of the seas could have resulted in the damage.

There is a far chance if you pushed a car down the hill or put it in drive and let it roll by itself, whether that be off the groyne or down the ramp it wouldn't go straight. Perhaps it went off the groyne but not the end as it veered to the right and not with enough speed and it rolled over on the way down, or crashed over the wall onto the sand and was taken out by the water. Have seen cars go in at boat ramps and end up 50m off shore in a matter of minutes.

Think it's unlikely some one was in the driver seat when it went in. Way to risky for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Moustachio]

An earlier poster pointed to studies that showed, no, serial killers are just average ...

 

[Canning Vale]

An earlier poster pointed to studies that showed, no, serial killers are just average ...

Hi Moustachio,

Many thanks for your post. I'm no expert, but have read quite a bit about serial killers, in an attempt to try and fathom what they do, which is so bizarre. There's quite a bit about them on the FBIs profile page, if you'd like to read that.

From what I've read it's a myth that all serial killers have high I.Qs. Could it be true that David and Catherine Birnie, Ivan Milat or Eric Cooke were clever people. At one stage, Eric Cooke was a lawnmower man, and a nighttime thief. There's three examples of serial killers. What's your thoughts Moustachio?

 

[Moustachio]

If there's reasonable doubt, the prosecution won't use it, as it will get thrown out by the Judge. And if that is all they got, then the brief will become a nolle prosequi

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

It doesn't really work that way, with respect. It's for the jury (or judge alone in particular cases) to decide if there's reasonable doubt. Evidence will be admissible as long as it is relevant and not prejudicial. A judge would only refuse to admit it then, or there was some other technical impediment. So far as I know they don't have the old 'nolle' in WA, they have a 'no case' - where the judge dismisses the charges on the basis that no jury could convict on the evidence presented.

 

[Spinnaker]

This article posted by no name says that "Miss Cutlers car was found on its roof, 35m off the beach near the Cottesloe groyne".

 

[Innerchild]

One thing for sure is that there is a s... load of damage to BLF.

It seems there are conflicting reports. These are from Cär in Surf Mystery

Quote The entry point of the car in the water remains a mystery. There was no evidence such as scrape marks, that the car had been driven or pushed off the groyne. To drive from the service road around the walkway to the groyne would have involved negotiating deep sand drifts that have blown across the walkway. The officer ……. Marine Parade to the Cottesloe SLSC and boatshed. Such an entry would involve running the car off a 1 m? concrete retaining wall …a narrow stretch of sand and into the surf. Unquote

Even if Fiat went off groyne at 60km/hr the force on the car would have been about 4,000N, and I'd estimated it needed around 30,000N to cause the damage, although looking at the photo there seems to be more damage than I thought. The motor was not running, although ignition on, being pushed onto ocean and landing on rocks, maybe 1,000 - 2,000N. I'm not even sure it was found near groyne, some articles indicated it was and some didn't.

Quote It was found about 35m off the beach well away from the groyne. Unquote
One article indicated the damage to the roof may have been caused by being dragged across the rocks at the Groyne, but the same article said it was found well away from the groyne!!

Quote The roof of the …. a Fiat 125 about 14 years old had been caved in by…. across the rocks at Cottesloe Groyne. Unquote


It seems to me BLF still has a story to tell as to what happened for it to end up at Cott had everyone baffled then and still does now!

There are quite a few articles at the time mentioning that the car was likely/ driven off the Cottesloe groyne - I am starting to think that this is correct. Perhaps the BLF (Brave Little Fiat) flipped over and hit the rocks of the groyne going down. This impact and the force of the seas could have resulted in the damage.

 

[Moustachio]

Hi Moustachio,

Many thanks for your post. I'm no expert, but have read quite a bit about serial killers, in an attempt to try and fathom what they do, which is so bizarre. There's quite a bit about them on the FBIs profile page, if you'd like to read that.

From what I've read it's a myth that all serial killers have high I.Qs. Could it be true that David and Catherine Birnie, Ivan Milat or Eric Cooke were clever people. At one stage, Eric Cooke was a lawnmower man, and a nighttime thief. There's three examples of serial killers. What's your thoughts Moustachio?

I'm happy to say - I have no idea.

On the other hand, I have met a few bona fide psychopaths in my time - and some of them were dumb. So, you can be both cruel and dumb, in my view.

 

[Innerchild]

Make and Model of car, you may be able to confirm this noname.First report: The car, a Fiat 125 was Julie's.
The ‘West Australian’ newspaper, page 8 of its 23rd Juneedition, that Julie’s 1963 (sic) Fiatsedan

The Daily News 23rd June edition, led the day with news that Julie’s car was a two-tone Fiat sedan

The Friday 24th edition of the Daily news, on page 7, says that Julie’s car was a 1973 two-tone Fiat sedan.

On Wednesday 29th June, on page 3, the ‘West Australian’ writes that the Fiat is grey.

Daily News 30th June 1988: the car is now a 1968 Fiat 125 sedan. The paper prints a photograph of a poster that Julie’s friends and family are distributing that shows two photos of Julie and a picture of a similar car.

Every subsequent report says 1968 125 Fiat and needed to have it accurate showing photos IMO

 

[CaptainTurbid]

Any theories why BRE went quiet after CG? I know in 1997 when I worked at the WC they were considering what software packages to purchase in preparation for the new millennium. In 1998 we were busy ensuring data was migrating correctly too. All the different regions were affected by the preparations.

Perhaps BRE worked within a team, on one of the pre-Millennium projects. I should imagine Telstra was very busy at that time.

In addition, there’s been the introduction of “gory” computer games which probably kept BRE entertained for hours!

If BRE is indeed CSK I'd be interested in knowing at what point in time he met/left his wives. Perhaps these women kept his "dark passenger" at bay?

Alleged case 1 was in 88 then nothing till the run from 95-97 (that wapol have said are connected anyway!) Be interesting to know if there was correlation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[petedavo.au]

It doesn't really work that way, with respect. It's for the jury (or judge alone in particular cases) to decide if there's reasonable doubt. Evidence will be admissible as long as it is relevant and not prejudicial. A judge would only refuse to admit it then, or there was some other technical impediment. So far as I know they don't have the old 'nolle' in WA, they have a 'no case' - where the judge dismisses the charges on the basis that no jury could convict on the evidence presented.

Suggest searching DPP WA nolle prosequi cases. Same with WA Police summary prosecution noble prosequi cases. There are many. It's where the prosecution pulls the charges. A judge can't enter a nolle prosequi, only the prosecution can, but it must be done before judgement otherwise a double jeopardy scenario would exist, if the prosecution wanted to recharge later on after new evidence is found.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[no name]

Spinnaker I think that article was 1 of only 2 that I found in The West Australian.


In my first post after going to the library I mentioned that the "facts" of the case, which extended to the condition & location of the vehicle, very much depended on which newspaper was telling the story & presumably dependant on who they spoke to to obtain those facts. On the whole, I think it is quite obvious that the police fully expected her body to be washed up ashore, thus confirming it was a probable suicide and only got somewhat serious about her disappearance once that didnt occur. I dont think much care was taken to report the "facts" accurately at all for that reason.

To be honest, I wish I had a week to spend at the library. In almost 2 hours I'd looked fairly thoroughly through the 1st reel of the Daily News only. I had another 8 or so to go through with no time to do it. I then had a really quick look at the 2 articles that were listed in the library catalogue and then only very briefly in the issues of the various papers immediately following her disappearance. My focus at the time was finding a picture of the car & I was manically loading and unloading reels without paying much attention to exactly where the info was coming from. I have the order the photos were taken in and the info in the articles as best reference for the most part. I hope I haven't broken the rules referencing them as such.

I have no idea why the photos are upside down and sideways - they are not like that in my computer but my apologies about that anyway.


The article in the Sunday Times in 2000 connecting her to CSK possibly states that whilst they police have more evidence to suggest a connection, they remain tightlipped. Id be interested to know what that may be considering in 2000 they didnt appear to have any clues at all regarding the identity of CSK from memory. Perhaps we are in for a real eye opener of a trial sometime next year after all.

Has anyone ever compared the dates of any of the numerous disappearances in Perth against WA school holidays? Ive had a quick look but couldn't locate them. If BRE is responsible for any, then perhaps whilst with his 2nd wife, that may be a factor.

 

[DRT]

1st shot from Daily News
2nd - 3rd shots from West Australian in days following her disappearance
4th - 5th relating to Vanessa Devlin murder

Does anyone think the body found at Cottesloe Beach has any relation to the JC case or co-incidence in location.
A conspiracy theorist might consider it to be an accomplice going to talk or a person feeling guilty. I remember hearing it at the time but I am guessing police considered it not related. Not sure of the exact date but it is shortly after 10 July 1988 because that is the when the pool results were. If it was a 2 person job to get the car in the water it may be why no one has talked. 800 metres away is quite a distance, in hindsight it is probably just the Daily News tabloid style journalism.

 

[no name]

Spinnaker I think that article was 1 of only 2 that I found in The West Australian.

In my first post after going to the library I mentioned that the "facts" of the case, which extended to the condition & location of the vehicle, very much depended on which newspaper was telling the story & presumably dependant on who they spoke to to obtain those facts. On the whole, I think it is quite obvious that the police fully expected her body to be washed up ashore, thus confirming it was a probable suicide and only got somewhat serious about her disappearance once that didnt occur. I dont think much care was taken to relay the "facts" accurately at all for that reason.

To be honest, I wish I had a week to spend at the library. In almost 2 hours I'd looked fairly thoroughly through the 1st reel of the Daily News only. I had another 8 or so to go through with no time to do it. I then had a really quick look at the 2 articles that were listed in the library catalogue and then only very briefly in the issues of the various papers immediately following her disappearance. My focus at the time was finding a picture of the car & I was manically loading and unloading reels without paying appropriate attention to exactly where the info was coming from. I have the order the photos were taken in and the info in the articles as best reference for the most part. I hope I haven't broken the rules referencing them as such. I hope that answers your question regarding clarification of the make/model in the articles too Innerchild.

I have no idea why the photos are upside down and sideways they are not like that in my computer but my apologies about that anyway.

The article in the Sunday Times in 2000 connecting her to CSK possibly states that whilst they police have more evidence to suggest a connection, they remain tightlipped. Id be interested to know what that may be considering in 2000 they didnt appear to have any clues at all regarding the identity of CSK from memory. Perhaps we are in for a real eye opener of a trial sometime next year after all.

Has anyone ever compared the dates of any of the numerous disappearances in Perth against WA school holidays? Ive had a quick look but couldn't locate them. If BRE is responsible for any then perhaps whilst with his 2nd wife, that may be a factor.

 

[no name]

Must admit that was my thought too immediately after reading it. Someones nervous!

 

[petedavo.au]

Someone might want to visit this exhibit at UWA. It has photos of Cottesloe from 1988
http://www.lwgallery.uwa.edu.au/exhibitions/kevin-ballantine

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Regarding the roof damage to BLF - maybe someone weakened the corner and mid- car supports with a sledge hammer or angle grinder before ditching the car into the [emoji305] sea.

Not sure why this would occur????

BLF may have been physically abused before being left for dead in the ocean.

(Please excuse my poor attempt at humour - I mean no disrespect to any of the victims)

 

[meticulously]

Noname :"I have no idea why the photos are upside down and sideways - they are not like that in my computer but my apologies about that anyway."
-----------------------------

Yes noname, that happens unfortunately at times .
Have edited this for clarity . If Anyone needs help photo editing articles like this just let me know .

.

 

[Canning Vale]

Spinnaker I think that article was 1 of only 2 that I found in The West Australian.


In my first post after going to the library I mentioned that the "facts" of the case, which extended to the condition & location of the vehicle, very much depended on which newspaper was telling the story & presumably dependant on who they spoke to to obtain those facts. On the whole, I think it is quite obvious that the police fully expected her body to be washed up ashore, thus confirming it was a probable suicide and only got somewhat serious about her disappearance once that didnt occur. I dont think much care was taken to report the "facts" accurately at all for that reason.

To be honest, I wish I had a week to spend at the library. In almost 2 hours I'd looked fairly thoroughly through the 1st reel of the Daily News only. I had another 8 or so to go through with no time to do it. I then had a really quick look at the 2 articles that were listed in the library catalogue and then only very briefly in the issues of the various papers immediately following her disappearance. My focus at the time was finding a picture of the car & I was manically loading and unloading reels without paying much attention to exactly where the info was coming from. I have the order the photos were taken in and the info in the articles as best reference for the most part. I hope I haven't broken the rules referencing them as such.

I have no idea why the photos are upside down and sideways - they are not like that in my computer but my apologies about that anyway.


The article in the Sunday Times in 2000 connecting her to CSK possibly states that whilst they police have more evidence to suggest a connection, they remain tightlipped. Id be interested to know what that may be considering in 2000 they didnt appear to have any clues at all regarding the identity of CSK from memory. Perhaps we are in for a real eye opener of a trial sometime next year after all.

Has anyone ever compared the dates of any of the numerous disappearances in Perth against WA school holidays? Ive had a quick look but couldn't locate them. If BRE is responsible for any, then perhaps whilst with his 2nd wife, that may be a factor.

Hi Spinnaker,

Many thanks for the good work, you've done well! With regard to disappearances within the school holidays, what about the religious holidays? He made reference to the clown outfit being good for a bahmisfa - I think that's Jewish. Sorry don't know how to spell Bahmisfa.

 

[meticulously]

POLICE SEEK 2 IN CAR PUZZLE

edited for clarity



.

 

[meticulously]

Vanessa Devlin newspaper article .
Tried to edit for clarity but its still extremely difficult to read all .

.