Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

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As I mentioned before some older cars were easy to access, without a key - and didn't have steering locks. It would be easy enough for a strong person to steer a small car, whilst walking alongside it.

I don't think Cottesloe's beachside cafe/restaurant was there then, if it was, it probably closed early in winter.

During the 1990s Perth had much less population and the nightlife wasn't lively, like it is nowadays :happydance:.

Nightclubs closed at 3am and afterwards people gathered at a friends house or went home!

Ahhh misinformation- please keep your comments knowledgeable.
Nightclubs in 1988 and throughout 90's had licences until 6am. On any night, they closed earlier if there were not enough patrons to warrant staying open.
And IMO the nightlife was just as lively throughout the decades, only Meth use changing things in last 5-10 years
 
Ahhh misinformation- please keep your comments knowledgeable.
Nightclubs in 1988 and throughout 90's had licences until 6am. On any night, they closed earlier if there were not enough patrons to warrant staying open.
And IMO the nightlife was just as lively throughout the decades, only Meth use changing things in last 5-10 years

Plus a few select clubs over the years opened from approximately 3am - 10am like the old Freezer nightclub in Northbridge, where the die-hard clubbers would go when everything else closed at 6am.
 
How about Red Hill Amphitheatre? Also Hollywood Reserve in KK cemetery, adjacent Karella St seems to pass through a west to east direction in these images.
It's been suggested previously "the position of the bodies was deliberate to within 10 to 15 metres. They indicate to where Sarah Spiers can be found."
 
Is there anyone who lived in the Gosnells or Huntingdale area during the mid 1980s. BRE probably rode a bicycle back and forth to school. Near to G High School is a pathway which runs alongside the river. Does anyone remember BRE as a youth? Any sports that he played after school?

Do you or others that may have known BRE know what happened to his sister? There seems to have been a suggestion somewhere on one of these threads that she had an accident in NZ.
 
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This is today at Cottesloe as every year the water hits the boat ramp without tide or weather. The bottom of Indiana tearooms
 

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Thread # 5
05-21-2016, 12:39 PM#423
BenJones84
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Originally Posted by elastic
to assume the CSK is plotting wuith his dump sites, and tagetting victims based on their irish names/meanings/links is also concerning.
The CSK is clearly positioning the bodies with high accuracy. The killer must have a very good knowledge of maps. In 1996, there was no google earth, definitely someone with an interest in orienteering.. but hey look who I'm explaiing it to.

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I have attached images posted by Ben Jones in #5. Instead of regarding Cottesloe beach as due west", if you fix an east- west line to the image with respect to the north - south line of JR and CG centering on the Conti, where would this line pass through?

Could it be a directional marker for SS? Parkerville?

How about Red Hill Amphitheatre? Also Hollywood Reserve in KK cemetery, adjacent Karella St seems to pass through a west to east direction in these images.
It's been suggested previously "the position of the bodies was deliberate to within 10 to 15 metres. They indicate to where Sarah Spiers can be found."
 
How about Red Hill Amphitheatre? Also Hollywood Reserve in KK cemetery, adjacent Karella St seems to pass through a west to east direction in these images.
It's been suggested previously "the position of the bodies was deliberate to within 10 to 15 metres. They indicate to where Sarah Spiers can be found."

Hollywood reserve would be very close to where the KK attack was - given the victim ran a short distance to Hollywood hospital.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ahhh misinformation- please keep your comments knowledgeable.
Nightclubs in 1988 and throughout 90's had licences until 6am. On any night, they closed earlier if there were not enough patrons to warrant staying open.
And IMO the nightlife was just as lively throughout the decades, only Meth use changing things in last 5-10 years

Absolutely spot on! We were out until 5am easy & then ended up at Fast Eddies. Nightlife was brilliant and no glassings or one punch to the head that I was ever aware of.
 
Do you or others that may have known BRE know what happened to his sister? There seems to have been a suggestion somewhere on one of these threads that she had an accident in NZ.[/QUOTE

She is alive and well and married]
 
Ahhh misinformation- please keep your comments knowledgeable.
Nightclubs in 1988 and throughout 90's had licences until 6am. On any night, they closed earlier if there were not enough patrons to warrant staying open.
And IMO the nightlife was just as lively throughout the decades, only Meth use changing things in last 5-10 years


My apologies Spooks, I was thinking of the '80s. The nightlife is much more lively these days.
 
Absolutely spot on! We were out until 5am easy & then ended up at Fast Eddies. Nightlife was brilliant and no glassings or one punch to the head that I was ever aware of.

Yes less aggro - common nightclub drugs back in 80's and 90's, were cocaine, ecstasy, LSD, and speed.
Heroin was around, but not generally in the clubs because of its effects. It's illegal to be "asleep" in licensed premises in WA.

Methamphetamine has changed the drug scene. I've heard professionals who work with addicts say that heroin would take approximately 5-10 years to significantly ruin a person's life and health beyond repair. Whereas methamphetamine can do comparable damage in much shorter time frame, like 3-6 months.
 
I remember the work blouse and dress were handed in to Police several months after JC went missing. I am going entirely off memory here ,bearing in mind it was nearly 30 years ago and shockingly undereported at the time but I was under the impression the bag was left under a table at a very popular high volume breakfast /lunch diner called Apollos or something similar a few doors up from the tobbaconist shop on the corner of Hay Street.
I remember thinking at the time it was exactly the type of place you might slide into for an unobtrusive coffee at 8 or 9 am on the way to pick up your own vehicle from the city carparks after being up all night getting up to no good disposing of someone elses. Anything not of value left under those tables either deliberately or inadverdently through being tired could rightly be expected to go straight in the trash.
However due to the style of diner tables and the frequency of people leaving handbags. shopping etc behind , I have been informed they actually had a lost property storage area out the back and this is where it sat until its signifigance was realised and it was handed in.
It is only in later years I have seen reference to "King Kebabs" which I assume would me more of a late night eatery catering for the Pub/ Nightclub crowd on King Street,and unlikely to have long term lost property storage.


o
Thanks 707, that is very interesting and probably more likely than going for a kebab with her attacker(s) the previous night.
AND DRESS!! Was this handed in as well??
 
Monday Night in Inner City Perth Nightclub land 20 June 1988 it is going to be a slow night.
At the Parmelia Hilton it is Hospitality Staff who all pretty much know each other ,a smattering of interstate/ international guests, Miners on break,Northbridge types and the odd Hooker.
JC has left her purse at home,she is not working four hours minimum wage to then spend it on after work drinks. Free or nothing at the staff function. A few other hospitality workers from surrounding nightclubs are also aware of/ invited to the after work function.
In the car park as she leaves JC is possibly tricked into to giving her abductor a ride home- South of the River. ? Car broken down.? Too much to drink.? Sure why not.
After rebuffing unwanted advances she is assaulted, put in the back seat then driven to a remote location.
Whilst returning from this location her killer rolls the car ,and has to limp it back into Perth, cover /hide it, then brazenly drive it down to the surf in Cottesloe-perhaps as another poster has surmised, intending to dump the back seat there before realising he could get the whole car in.
Fearfull of publicity jogging the memory of someone who has assisted him with the recovery and disposal at some stage,(tow truck driver, farmer ,passerby ) he has afterwards called the West Australian Newspaper claiming to be JC and not wanting a fuss made or to be found. The last thing he wanted was a front page picture of the Fiat.

So I think he came close to being caught
A as an informal aquaintance of JC through work
B rolling the car , having to store /hide it for a day or two
C driving the damaged car through suburban back streets and into the sea without being observed.
All JMO and theory.

Thanks for your scenarios', Interesting, getting into the mind set of the killer. Recent newspaper articles I posted from very close to the time of the disappearance IMO are useful, as later reporting seemed to have summarised and / or missed some details out maybe reflecting the later journalist’s bias or ideas.
The earlier ones also may have had inaccuracies as they were reporting as the crime was unfolding, didn't have information of the plastic bag with work shirt that was seemingly reported found a year later, or the concerns of the family that JC was being stalked.

I find it interesting that the back seat was found on the Monday (I have not been able to find this yet but what has been reported from a long and detailed article on this in the Post. At around 12.30 am the next morning, Monday 20th June, wearing a high-collared black evening dress, ... Later that same day a car’s backseat was retrieved from the sea, near the groyne, at Cottesloe Beach") and the car on Wednesday.

Did someone take the back seat down to the end of the groyne early on the Monday morning of the 20th June (JC last seen 12.30am), and throw it off the end?
It would match the southerly coastal drift patterns and minimal tide coming in that it washed up on the beach south of Cott later that day.
Storing the car under tarp would also make sense as it was reported her sister and friends were distributing a poster of her car with her image. (Daily News 30th June 1988: the car is now a 1968 Fiat 125 sedan. The paper prints a photograph of a poster that Julie’s friends and family are distributing that shows two photos of Julie and a picture of a similar car.)

These early newspaper reports also mention a man and woman who were seen leaving the function soon after JC (On Friday 24th June 1988, on page 3 (a whole 5 pages more prominence) the ‘West Australian’ reports that the back seat of Julie’s car was found in the sea, near the groyne, on Monday. The car was discovered 35 metres from the beach and had been left with its ignition and lights on, front driver’s side window open, rear doors locked and both front doors unlocked. Det. Sgt. Katich is appealing for a man and a woman seen exiting the hotel just after Julie to come forward. Police also appeal for anyone who saw Julie’s car parked either on the slip road near the surf club or nearby to contact them.)

Do you think there could have been an accomplice, an older female experienced and helpful in making JC more comfortable when approached?

Also the report is of a female contacting the offices of the West Australian, (On Wednesday 29th June, on page 3, the ‘West Australian’ writes that the Fiat is grey and that Julie worked as a barmaid at the hotel. The newspaper says that a woman phoned their offices on Monday 27th and asked to be left alone. They report that Julie’s sister, Nicole says it might have been Julie), but I agree that calling pretending to be JC and not wanting a fuss made or to be found would make them think maybe she has run away and stop reporting.

Sgt. Katich I think, was the detective who got Birnie to tell him the burial sites in his interview with him. It refreshingly says somewhere that Katich was keeping his mind open to what happened.

Finally, could the Government Road cul de sac, adjacent to KK be somewhere he could have taken JC and conveniently hide the car until he (they) disposed of it?
 
Spinnaker, I agree the ocean is a force and decided to try to calculate the impact of the force of the car hitting ocean and comparing to other scenarios.

The damage to the Fiat is very specific, with the roof crushed to almost the bottom of the windows, looking at the small picture of when it was dragged out of the ocean (attachment at end of this post). It looks like the point of impact was the roof. Have hardly ever heard of the damage being discussed in newspaper, let alone any investigation into this. So a while ago I decided to try and calculated the forces experienced on the car and compare to the corresponding damage to the car, all based on a 1968 Fiat 125.

Be aware serious maths ahead.
Whenever there is an interaction between two objects, there is a force upon each of the objects. Force is a quantity that is measured using the standard metric unit known as the Newton. A Newton is abbreviated by an "N." One Newton is the amount of force required to give a 1-kg mass an acceleration of 1 m/s/s. It is calculated by multiplying the mass of the object and the acceleration or deceleration of the object of something hitting the object. F = m x a.

To calculate force needed to damage 1968 Fiat 125 in different scenarios, you first need to calculate or estimate acceleration (or deceleration) for each scenario.

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to Time.

Acceleration= (V2-V1) km/h / Time (s) required to travelling this distance.

Senarios

1 The train hitting the Fiat deceleration was a = (39 – 0) divided by 32sec =1.219 km/hr.s

2. Fiat rolling 4 times, est. a = (100 to 0) divided by 4 sec =25 km/h.s

3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp est. a = (10 to 0) in 4 sec = 2.5 km/hr.s

Fiat hitting groyne while in water est: a = (2 to 0) in 4 sec = 0.5 km/hr.s

4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water est: a = (60 to 0) in 4 sec = 15km/hr.s


1. Train hitting Fiat. Hit at 39 km/hr and took 32 sec to stop.
attachment.php

My answer on google as to how heavy is a locomotor engine was 192,000–196,000 kg.

F = m x a F = 192,000 x 1.219 = 65,013 N


2. Fiat rolling 4 times (you tube clip) Wikispecs give mass of 1968 Fiat 125 as 1150 kg

F=m x a F = 1150 x 25 = 7,986 N

attachment.php

Screen grab after 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] roll shows little structural damage, mostly wheels.


3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp

F = m x a F = 1150 x 2.5 = 798 N

Fiat hitting groyne while in water

F = m x a F = 700 (lighter in water) x 0.5 = 97N
May hit groyne more than once but may also have no acceleration, which is a change in velocity. Movement in water may be a constant velocity.


4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water.

I used a very generous 60 km/hr for this calculation as I’d estimate it would need about that speed to ramp over the rocks. However it is a driverless car. It would almost certainly drift to the south and not to Cott beach if it launched off groyne.

F = m x a F = 1150 x 15 = 4791 N

Driving the Fiat off the groyne (4,800N) generates much less force and less damage than the fiat rolling 4 times (8,000N), on a road at a speed of 100km/hr. The Fiat rolling on the road had minimal structural damage despite larger estimated forces.

The actual damage to the car as shown by the small picture below, IMO caused by something is closer to being hit by a train at 39 km hr (65,000N) than any scenario entering water at Cott (1000N?) or rolling 4 times on hard surface at 100 km/ hr (8,000N).

These forces are estimates and only to give a general idea of the forces necessary to cause damage to 1968 Fiat 125. Regardless IMO, someone went to enormous effort to put the car here, for reasons very important to them.

It sends a westerly beacon, but there has to be more to it than this.
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I'm sure this opinion has been posted before - given the numerous (understatement!!) posts about geographical positioning... but this is how it looks to me (assuming JC & KT were victims of CSK):

Julie Cutler - West
Kerry Turner - East
KK victim ('left for dead') - Central
Sarah Spiers - ???
Jane Rimmer - South
Ciara Glennon - North

A very simplistic view, but I would think SS would be Central to 'replace' the KK victim who survived

All my unfounded opinion of course!
 
Do you or others that may have known BRE know what happened to his sister? There seems to have been a suggestion somewhere on one of these threads that she had an accident in NZ.

Hi Innterchild,

No I don't know BRE or his sister. I'm a local from the area.
 
Spinnaker, I agree the ocean is a force and decided to try to calculate the impact of the force of the car hitting ocean and comparing to other scenarios.

The damage to the Fiat is very specific, with the roof crushed to almost the bottom of the windows, looking at the small picture of when it was dragged out of the ocean (attachment at end of this post). It looks like the point of impact was the roof. Have hardly ever heard of the damage being discussed in newspaper, let alone any investigation into this. So a while ago I decided to try and calculated the forces experienced on the car and compare to the corresponding damage to the car, all based on a 1968 Fiat 125.

Be aware serious maths ahead.
Whenever there is an interaction between two objects, there is a force upon each of the objects. Force is a quantity that is measured using the standard metric unit known as the Newton. A Newton is abbreviated by an "N." One Newton is the amount of force required to give a 1-kg mass an acceleration of 1 m/s/s. It is calculated by multiplying the mass of the object and the acceleration or deceleration of the object of something hitting the object. F = m x a.

To calculate force needed to damage 1968 Fiat 125 in different scenarios, you first need to calculate or estimate acceleration (or deceleration) for each scenario.

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to Time.

Acceleration= (V2-V1) km/h / Time (s) required to travelling this distance.

Senarios

1 The train hitting the Fiat deceleration was a = (39 – 0) divided by 32sec =1.219 km/hr.s

2. Fiat rolling 4 times, est. a = (100 to 0) divided by 4 sec =25 km/h.s

3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp est. a = (10 to 0) in 4 sec = 2.5 km/hr.s

Fiat hitting groyne while in water est: a = (2 to 0) in 4 sec = 0.5 km/hr.s

4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water est: a = (60 to 0) in 4 sec = 15km/hr.s


1. Train hitting Fiat. Hit at 39 km/hr and took 32 sec to stop.
attachment.php

My answer on google as to how heavy is a locomotor engine was 192,000–196,000 kg.

F = m x a F = 192,000 x 1.219 = 65,013 N


2. Fiat rolling 4 times (you tube clip) Wikispecs give mass of 1968 Fiat 125 as 1150 kg

F=m x a F = 1150 x 25 = 7,986 N

attachment.php

Screen grab after 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] roll shows little structural damage, mostly wheels.


3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp

F = m x a F = 1150 x 2.5 = 798 N

Fiat hitting groyne while in water

F = m x a F = 700 (lighter in water) x 0.5 = 97N
May hit groyne more than once but may also have no acceleration, which is a change in velocity. Movement in water may be a constant velocity.


4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water.

I used a very generous 60 km/hr for this calculation as I’d estimate it would need about that speed to ramp over the rocks. However it is a driverless car. It would almost certainly drift to the south and not to Cott beach if it launched off groyne.

F = m x a F = 1150 x 15 = 4791 N

Driving the Fiat off the groyne (4,800N) generates much less force and less damage than the fiat rolling 4 times (8,000N), on a road at a speed of 100km/hr. The Fiat rolling on the road had minimal structural damage despite larger estimated forces.

The actual damage to the car as shown by the small picture below, IMO caused by something is closer to being hit by a train at 39 km hr (65,000N) than any scenario entering water at Cott (1000N?) or rolling 4 times on hard surface at 100 km/ hr (8,000N).

These forces are estimates and only to give a general idea of the forces necessary to cause damage to 1968 Fiat 125. Regardless IMO, someone went to enormous effort to put the car here, for reasons very important to them.

It sends a westerly beacon, but there has to be more to it than this.
attachment.php



Innerchild, how do you think a driverless car accelerates?
 
Spinnaker, I agree the ocean is a force and decided to try to calculate the impact of the force of the car hitting ocean and comparing to other scenarios.

The damage to the Fiat is very specific, with the roof crushed to almost the bottom of the windows, looking at the small picture of when it was dragged out of the ocean (attachment at end of this post). It looks like the point of impact was the roof. Have hardly ever heard of the damage being discussed in newspaper, let alone any investigation into this. So a while ago I decided to try and calculated the forces experienced on the car and compare to the corresponding damage to the car, all based on a 1968 Fiat 125.

Be aware serious maths ahead.
Whenever there is an interaction between two objects, there is a force upon each of the objects. Force is a quantity that is measured using the standard metric unit known as the Newton. A Newton is abbreviated by an "N." One Newton is the amount of force required to give a 1-kg mass an acceleration of 1 m/s/s. It is calculated by multiplying the mass of the object and the acceleration or deceleration of the object of something hitting the object. F = m x a.

To calculate force needed to damage 1968 Fiat 125 in different scenarios, you first need to calculate or estimate acceleration (or deceleration) for each scenario.

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to Time.

Acceleration= (V2-V1) km/h / Time (s) required to travelling this distance.

Senarios

1 The train hitting the Fiat deceleration was a = (39 – 0) divided by 32sec =1.219 km/hr.s

2. Fiat rolling 4 times, est. a = (100 to 0) divided by 4 sec =25 km/h.s

3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp est. a = (10 to 0) in 4 sec = 2.5 km/hr.s

Fiat hitting groyne while in water est: a = (2 to 0) in 4 sec = 0.5 km/hr.s

4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water est: a = (60 to 0) in 4 sec = 15km/hr.s


1. Train hitting Fiat. Hit at 39 km/hr and took 32 sec to stop.
attachment.php

My answer on google as to how heavy is a locomotor engine was 192,000–196,000 kg.

F = m x a F = 192,000 x 1.219 = 65,013 N


2. Fiat rolling 4 times (you tube clip) Wikispecs give mass of 1968 Fiat 125 as 1150 kg

F=m x a F = 1150 x 25 = 7,986 N

attachment.php

Screen grab after 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] roll shows little structural damage, mostly wheels.


3. Fiat driven into ocean at Cott boat ramp

F = m x a F = 1150 x 2.5 = 798 N

Fiat hitting groyne while in water

F = m x a F = 700 (lighter in water) x 0.5 = 97N
May hit groyne more than once but may also have no acceleration, which is a change in velocity. Movement in water may be a constant velocity.


4. Fiat accelerating off groyne and hitting rocks or water.

I used a very generous 60 km/hr for this calculation as I’d estimate it would need about that speed to ramp over the rocks. However it is a driverless car. It would almost certainly drift to the south and not to Cott beach if it launched off groyne.

F = m x a F = 1150 x 15 = 4791 N

Driving the Fiat off the groyne (4,800N) generates much less force and less damage than the fiat rolling 4 times (8,000N), on a road at a speed of 100km/hr. The Fiat rolling on the road had minimal structural damage despite larger estimated forces.

The actual damage to the car as shown by the small picture below, IMO caused by something is closer to being hit by a train at 39 km hr (65,000N) than any scenario entering water at Cott (1000N?) or rolling 4 times on hard surface at 100 km/ hr (8,000N).

These forces are estimates and only to give a general idea of the forces necessary to cause damage to 1968 Fiat 125. Regardless IMO, someone went to enormous effort to put the car here, for reasons very important to them.

It sends a westerly beacon, but there has to be more to it than this.
attachment.php


Thanks Innerchild for your post - great math!!

Effectively your calculations show that the force of the fiat accelerating off the groyne and hitting rocks and the force of the car hitting the groyne whilst in the sea, would not likely be the cause of the damage to the fiat (please correct me if I misinterpret).

I do get this - however I don't see how someone could drive a badly damaged car to the groyne or boat ramp without being noticed by someone.

Lets then look at the scenario of the the car tipping upside down coming off the groyne, perhaps floating for a bit and then hitting reef, catching on the reef and the force of the waves hitting the car caused the damage? How do you think this would play out?

EDIT: and yes does send a Westerly beacon.
 
Map showing reef areas around Cottesloe beach/ groyne area:

attachment.php
 

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