Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

[petedavo.au]

It seems extremely difficult to have an old car floating out .
It would good to know what the wave power was , it is a crucial factor in figuring it out . There's a possibility that the waves were powerful and that is very very different than if it was a calm sea . Theres a few different possibilities once that has been factored in .


#Innerchild , thanks for the work you have done thats the best research on the car disposal investigations that ive seen . Especially the groyne pics , well done .

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Quite possibly many overseas sleuthers might not know about the notorious rips at our beaches. If the Fiat got caught by a rip it would be dragged out from shore even if it had no buoyancy. https://beachsafe.org.au/surf-safety/ripcurrents

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[petedavo.au]

Actually, I think the pictures you have are after the repairs in 2007. Cottesloe groyne had been suffering erosion issues and storm damage for years. IMHO it used to be a lot flatter.
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov....tesloe-groyne-repairs-to-begin-this-week.aspx
My recollection of Cottesloe groyne was that you stepped ONTO the rocks on the side, not stepping/climbing UP like you do now. I remarked on this to my children at sculptures by the sea (in all honesty, I think they will tell you I say it every time we go to Cottesloe)

In 1996 after severe storm damage the groyne and area around the Indiana had to be rebuilt.
http://www.cottesloe.wa.gov.au/Community_-About_Cottesloe-History_of_Cottesloe.htm
http://indiana.com.au/welcome/our-story/

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[Bunnie]

In 1996 after severe storm damage the groyne and area around the Indiana had to be rebuilt.
http://www.cottesloe.wa.gov.au/Community_-About_Cottesloe-History_of_Cottesloe.htm
http://indiana.com.au/welcome/our-story/

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Yes! I remembered the storm damage but I couldn't place the year; or if it occurred before or after JC. It was after this storm damage the groyne was reinforced with extra rocks all around, hence increasing the
side rock height but not the flat platform height.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Ummmm the ocean smashes up boats that lose their moorings or have engine failures pretty quickly against the sand or reefs, and you don't need cyclonic wind and waves. Just regular Perth coastal weather conditions will suffice.

If boats smash up in the ocean then so can cars.

Recent example this summer gone of boat at Rottnest Island losing engine power and smashes against rocks within minutes.

 

[petedavo.au]

Yes! I remembered the storm damage but I couldn't place the year; or if it occurred before or after JC. It was after this storm damage the groyne was reinforced with extra rocks all around, hence increasing the
side rock height but not the flat platform height.

Actually been a number of years that storm damaged the infrastructure on Cottesloe. 1995 saw the pylon completely knocked over, they decided to leave it, so a group of locals decided one night to put it back up (don't know how as it would've weighed a few ton) only to have the top of it taken out completely by another bug storm ten years later

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[Kambo]

Hi Bunnie, thanks you might be right. But from my memory the only reconstruction was done in 2007 to make it look like what it does now, which I think is around 100 cm and you have to climb to get up.

IMO it stayed the same from 1960 until 2007.

However the photo could be misleading. I remember being able to set up on it as well. After the first step you took another step to approx 40 or 50 cm and then walked across it.

Has anyone considered the vehicle entering the water at North Cott SLC. It's only a few hundred mtrs north and the water is deeper with a lot more reef and the current in there can rip through pretty strong. The existing boat ramp there is close enough to the water when conditions are right and it is more secluded. At low tide you could just about drive out onto the reef. Not sure what it looked like back in the 80's


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[petedavo.au]

A recent example of the beach disappearing

http://wise-earth.com/media/

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[The Weaver]

Re the roof damage to the Fiat. Roofs flattened easily on old cars. In this video from 0:33 -0:39 secs this is clearly demonstrated. Although the car is a Vauxhall Viva, it is the same vintage and very similar shape to the Fiat....(bear in mind that this was pre roll-cages, later crashes shown cars had bars)[video=youtube;hz_jVjdMv8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz_jVjdMv8Y[/video]

 

[Look4Clues]

I have quite a few photos of Cottesloe beach with the groyne taken in the mid 1980's as am a photographer. I can't post them on here as they're slides and unable to scan them at the moment but have just had a look. The groyne boulders were much smaller/lower then and you could easily walk right onto the rocks from the groyne path ie you didn't have to climb up and over them, unlike now. People used to sunbake on the boulders right down to the water and we'd dive off the groyne easily when we were younger.

But IMHO JC's car was driven down the access road from Marine Parade, down the ramp and landed in the ocean. I posted a photo previously showing how close the ocean can reach below the Indiana at times during winter. The Indiana Teahouse was built in 1996 but there has always been a building there and the access road and ramp were there in 1988 as I used it myself that year when my daughter was injured on the beach.

 

[petedavo.au]

I have quite a few photos of Cottesloe beach with the groyne taken in the mid 1980's as am a photographer. I can't post them on here as they're slides and unable to scan them at the moment. The groyne boulders were much smaller/lower then and you could walk right onto the rocks from the groyne path, ie you didn't have to climb up and over then onto the ramp and landed in the ocean. I posted a photo previously showing how close the ocean can reach below the Indiana at times during winter. The Indiana Teahouse was built in 1996 but there has always been a building there and the access road and ramp were there in 1988 as I used it myself that year when my daughter was injured on the beach.

I remember visiting there in early 80's. There was a kiosk on on eastern side of what later became Indiana, and I had to use the path to the eastern side as the waves came right over the western side path at high tide and would drench one.

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[Innerchild]

Re the roof damage to the Fiat. Roofs flattened easily on old cars. In this video from 0:33 -0:39 secs this is clearly demonstrated. Although the car is a Vauxhall Viva, it is the same vintage and very similar shape to the Fiat....(bear in mind that this was pre roll-cages, later crashes shown cars had bars)[video=youtube;hz_jVjdMv8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz_jVjdMv8Y[/video]

Hi weaver, thanks for your reply. I'm trying to establish and keep as closely as possible to the facts, in this case. I accepted that the car was a 1968 Fiat 125 from information posters and newspaper reports, just after JC went missing. However, two other models and years of Fiat were named almost in consecutive days, before the 1968 Fiat 125. So I had to decide which Fiat it was. I made the decision that the third Fiat named was correct as IMO if they asked the sister or flatmate they might not have known the exact model, but someone it was important to have the correct details and either went to the dealer or they found the registration papers and printed the correct details. I then chose the US Transportation Department regulated crash testing of 1968 model cars conducted in 1980. It had a 1968 Fiat 125, which was called a Fiat Strada. 10 makes and models of cars failed these tests and were indeed crumpled (see a previous post for which ones), but not the Fiat which performed remarkably like a ball breaker. I'mnot sure if it's helpful to compare a vauxhall viva IMO.

 

[Look4Clues]

That's right, have memories of that too.. it was just the old Centenary Pavillion and kiosk etc before they built the new

Indiana Tearooms and it looked like this...

 

[Look4Clues]

Sorry petedavo, my reply to this is below the next post. It's been a while since I've been on here and forgot how to post !

EDIT: oops, forgot to reply with quote again!

 

[The Weaver]

Hi weaver, thanks for your reply. I'm trying to establish and keep as closely as possible to the facts, in this case. I accepted that the car was a 1968 Fiat 125 from information posters and newspaper reports, just after JC went missing. However, two other models and years of Fiat were named almost in consecutive days, before the 1968 Fiat 125. So I had to decide which Fiat it was. I made the decision that the third Fiat named was correct as IMO if they asked the sister or flatmate they might not have known the exact model, but someone it was important to have the correct details and either went to the dealer or they found the registration papers and printed the correct details. I then chose the US Transportation Department regulated crash testing of 1968 model cars conducted in 1980. It had a 1968 Fiat 125, which was called a Fiat Strada. 10 makes and models of cars failed these tests and were indeed crumpled (see a previous post for which ones), but not the Fiat which performed remarkably like a ball breaker. I'mnot sure if it's helpful to compare a vauxhall viva IMO.

It was simply a demonstration of how car roofs crumple under the stress of a flat hit in a rollover. Probably not as unhelpful as the suggestion that I read earlier about the thing being flattened in a crusher

 

[petedavo.au]

Sorry petedavo, my reply to this is below the next post. It's been a while since I've been on here and forgot how to post !

EDIT: oops, forgot to reply with quote again!

There's a few images at http://thegrovelibrary.net/history/
Of the demolition of that building in 1983.
It was replaced by a pretty ordinary building until 1996, when the Indiana was built.

This is what the disposer of Julie's car would've seen in 1988

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[Look4Clues]

Oh gosh, I had completely forgotten about that horrible looking building.... must have blocked it out of my mind, it was so ugly...

EDIT: The pavilion was built in 1929 but by 1982 it was considered unsafe and demolished to make way for a new dome shaped pavilion which opened in 1983. This was later replaced in 1996 with the Indiana Tea Rooms.

There's a few images at http://thegrovelibrary.net/history/
Of the demolition of that building in 1983.
It was replaced by a pretty ordinary building until 1996, when the Indiana was built.

This is what the disposer of Julie's car would've seen in 1988

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[petedavo.au]

Oh gosh, I had completely forgotten about that horrible looking building.... must have blocked it out of my mind, it was so ugly...

It still had a kiosk on the eastern side as the waves came right up-to and over the path on the western side if I remember correctly.

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[Innerchild]

It was simply a demonstration of how car roofs crumple under the stress of a flat hit in a rollover. Probably not as unhelpful as the suggestion that I read earlier about the thing being flattened in a crusher

Hi weaver, meant to edit my post, but am still making rookie mistakes and not sure how to now.

I can be very confident that saying this Fiat car could roll at 100 km/hr, hit the ground around 9 or 10 times and not have any structural damage to the chassi.

I'm happy, please, for someone else to do the math, but I'm fairly confident in saying 8000 -12000N force was exerted on this car during the rollover. This much force did not damage the 1968 Fiat 125's body.

I've calculated the forces on all the scenarios of entering and in being dragged (coming soon), from the ocean so we can compare the forces exerted in the scenarios with the end damage done to JC's car. IMO this was the work of BRE, although not working alone.

I'm aware this may not make sense and may not interest some of the WS's, so thanks for hanging in. Certainly we often assume things to be true and I'm trying to keep an open mind and find definite answers.

 

[Innerchild]

Quote Spooks-R-Us

Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14
Ummmm the ocean smashes up boats that lose their moorings or have engine failures pretty quickly against the sand or reefs, and you don't need cyclonic wind and waves. Just regular Perth coastal weather conditions will suffice.

If boats smash up in the ocean then so can cars.

Recent example this summer gone of boat at Rottnest Island losing engine power and smashes against rocks within minutes. End Quote


Hi Spooks, that's exactly the point. Boat's will only smash if they hit a solid object, like rocks, sand, reefs, or get knocked down and hit the ocean. That's because a force is exerted when you have a difference in initial velocity and terminal velocity (usually zero when it makes contact). You can calculate these forces and damage.

So the oceans don't smash up boats, or cars bobbing around (or sinking) in the water

In the recent Hurricane Debbie, no damage was done until the boats hit the rocks, road or shore. The force they hit with depend on their weight and their acceleration into the immovable object.​

It's possible to quantify the forces of the various ways it's suggested JC's car entered the water,also from if hit the groyne while in the water, from when it was dragged out on it roof and most other scenarios.

You can compare these forces to forces needed to cause damage to the dame car in controlled (measurable) situations.

 

[petedavo.au]

Maybe a stupid question, but was the car roof actually collapsed? Or are we simply supposing this from a few screen shots from the news video? Because my interpretation of this shots is simply that the car is half buried in the soft sand of the beach, and doesn't show any actual signs of damage. Maybe it's just my dud eyesight...

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