Australia Australia - Claremont SK, 1996-97, Perth, WA - #14

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I’m replying to some posts from the last thread as well as this one.

Thanks 7SJ I also think it was his first step up into the big time, the “apprentice”, but my with theory I think there may have been a “mentor” and a “patsy” as well. I also agree KT was an opportunistic abduction by him, and possible the next victim.

Looking at the severe crush damage to the car, I don’t think it would be able to be driven once the damage occurred. I still am looking for the image I’ve seen before on webslueths showing it further up on the white sand the sand and ocean in the background, it may be a different one than is shown in the thumbnail.

I only remember hearing radio reports of the car recovery at the time and accepted the suggestions of the media or police that it seemed someone had driven it into the ocean and walked home or to their car or the appalling suggestion made that somehow this was a suicide. The suicide suggestion was retracted by police and reports were made that no one was in the car when it entered the ocean.

It wasn’t until viewing the photos of the damaged car and reading more detailed accounts of what is known about JC going missing, that I now question this scenario.
Thanks to “no name” for printing tide charts and summer picture of Cott groyne.

21Jun88 Low tide .73m 8.27pm
22Jun88 High tide .97 10.07am
Tide was coming in at the rate of 25cm over 13 ½ hours when the car was put into water.

Being uni-tidal (1 high and 1 low tide in approx 24 hours ) means we have little if any at times tidal movement. There are exceptions, days when Perth is bi-tidal and when combined with wind, moon phases and swell that we get a tide up to the boat ramp but it was not over these couple of days. If somebody can please find the photo of the car pulled up on the white sand with ocean in background it would save 1000 words!
Protected by the groyne there is no noticeable current, and no waves in the picture only a small chop on the ocean surface indicating a light wind.

Below is an excerpt from article from 2000 (time of when car was found is wrong) discussing how headlights were on and front window open. Doesn’t say about how crushed the car was! Other reports have said the headlights were still on and the car upside down, as well as the back seat taken out before the car entered the ocean and was found at another beach (not sure how far).
Source: The Sunday Times (Perth, Western Australia, Australia). (July 9, 2000): News: p004 From Infotrac Newsstand.Document Type: ArticleCopyright: COPYRIGHT 2000 News Limited http://sundaytimes.com.au/

“At 12.30am on June 20, 1988 Ms Cutler left the Parmelia Hotel, after a staff function. She was never seen again.
Weeks later (inaccuracy it was early Mon22nd the car was spotted), Ms Cutler’s empty two-tone grey 1963 Fiat was spotted in the ocean off Cottesloe Surf Club boatsheds.
Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver’s side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked.
Police ruled out suicide because Ms Cutler’s body would have been washed ashore if she had driven the car into the surf.”

“No name” thanks also for your descriptions of how the sand stepped to the paths and how this changed at different times, I also remember it being like this. However I only remember the path going along part way to the groyne and then going up to the surf club. I think this pathway was only extended later when they upgraded the groyne. I did walk this pathway many times as a Cott SLSC member. Boards and skis were stored in the clubhouse at the top of the hill at the time.

From memory the only way possible for a vehicle to get on the groyne was to drive along the sand, and this is what the beach life guard’s 4WD did occasionally. It was also the only vehicle that I ever remember going on to the groyne. Sometimes the 4WD had to use the boat ramp and other he could drive straight off the beach access road, to get onto the sand. There was also a decent lip from the sand to the groyne which couldn’t always be negotiated.

I don’t think it is possible at all for car to be driven directly into the water and end up damaged like it was.

I only think there is a slight possibility the car could access the groyne, but then in a driverless state and possibly having to use a ramp, as the rocks would still be 50 to 60 cm high, that it could be launched off the groyne, bounce on the rocks causing the roof to be crushed almost to the bonnet and then bounce into the ocean, is not a possibility for me. A crash of that significance would be heard by many nearby residents, but wasn’t.

Disposing of the car in water could have been a good way of destroying evidence but lots of other ways to do that. I agree with other suggestions that the car was a sign or IMO a West directional beacon, important enough for someone to go to the extraordinary amount of trouble to dispose of it in the ocean at Cottesloe beach.
Thank you for your very detailed post Innerchild.

I have read that JC entered her car in the Parmelia Hilton car park by the passenger side door as she could not unlock the drivers side door. Wondering if the passenger door was indeed still locked and the open window on the drivers side was a means for the driver to get out prior to ditching it into the ocean.

I am currently searching for the article and will post.
 
Thank you for your very detailed post Innerchild.

I have read that JC entered her car in the Parmelia Hilton car park by the passenger side door as she could not unlock the drivers side door. Wondering if the passenger door was indeed still locked and the open window on the drivers side was a means for the driver to get out prior to ditching it into the ocean.

I am currently searching for the article and will post.
I have found the mention of the drivers side door and it is from another forum so will not post. It refers to a detailed article in the Post newspaper which reports that "she is seen by another member of staff unlocking the passenger side door of her car (apparently the driver's side door could not be opened from the outside)". This means that a driver could have indeed exited from inside after all.

The driver's window could have been down however for ease of access to open the drivers door - effectively lean into the car though the window and open from inside.

EDIT: Interesting then that there were no fingerprints found on inside door handle and window winder (driver's side).


 
Someone suggested a mentor, One POI (whose not BRE) for KT and JC appears to have online playing records as a former player at http://thornliecc.wa.cricket.com.au
Anybody know if BRE was in any Cricket Clubs? Especially Thornlie?
Disregard. The Cricket player's middle initial is F
I found the full name of the POI I had in mind in a Corruption and Crime Commission pdf file and noted the POI's middle initial name starts with A
So is a different person even thou the forename and unusual surname, and suburb where he grew up is the same.

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Anyone seen any reports to say where Kerry Turner went to school or worked, or any other clue so we can work out if she knew BRE or any other POI that we've come across?
https://amp.watoday.com.au/wa-news/...der-of-teen-kerry-turner-20160628-gptg4f.html
e0fe7a06577ecbefce7cfd564424485a.jpg


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Is there any chance the car was dumped the next night after jc last seen , night of 21st ?)
See the water on the sand behind car indicates wave action .
c7d4b6e6e5ec69c44ee6ce0895df57d1.jpg

"He who waits" australian story documentary link for car
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...php?p=12572876

Pretty sure JC last confirmed sighting was in car park of Parmelia Hilton at 12.30 am on the 20th June 1988 (Saturday morning after working Friday night).
Car was found 50m off Cott SLSC boatshed (now Indiana) in the early morning of Monday 22nd June. Possible dumped around 2.00am (night of 21st June).
Is this the winter solstice?

nice work, everyone

other than what has been reported as stated by the Cutler family RE the prelude to Julie's disappearance - almost 30years after the fact - very little is known, and as a sleuth collective, we are clearly divided in our thoughts as to whether this crime was early work of the CSK.

what we DO know, is that Julie disappeared in June 1988 after going to a work party at the Parmelia Hilton ...two days later her car was found upside-down in the ocean off Cottesloe Beach.
The case was investigated by Superintendent Ron Carey; while being interviewed for the Channel Nine documentary 'To Catch a Killer', he said "the back seat of the car had been washed out of the vehicle and was found on a nearby beach. If the back seat could wash out why didn't Julie's body if she was in the car? Why didn't her shoes, handbag or some other item of property wash up? I believe she was never in the car when it went off Cottesloe Groyne. I believe that Julie was murdered and that the body was buried or secreted somewhere else before the car was dumped in the ocean."
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/c...-of-missing-and-murdered-20161231-gtk9el.html
_______________ _______________

of all who knew Julie personally, or saw her around on a regular basis — her college associates, her co-workers, perhaps an old school friend, a confidante, a boyfriend (or two), her hairdresser/coiffeur ...whoever served her at the shops/canteen and who might have exchanged a casual "how's it going?" — surely there is someone in whose memories of the time there possibly yet lies a further, minutest detail which could be the key to solving this crime?

until such time, it would at least be helpful to clarify the days&dates involved :
cf4412601b53bb26df74644565d3478d.jpg

https://www.calendar-365.com/1988-calendar.html
[emoji887]
 
Anyone seen any reports to say where Kerry Turner went to school or worked, or any other clue so we can work out if she knew BRE or any other POI that we've come across?
https://amp.watoday.com.au/wa-news/...der-of-teen-kerry-turner-20160628-gptg4f.html
e0fe7a06577ecbefce7cfd564424485a.jpg


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Huntingdale local mentions the below:

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Voodoodoll76
"In early 1991 my first pt job in a Gosnells pharmacy- I worked with Kerry Turners sister- just prior to her murder"
 
Someone suggested a mentor, One POI (whose not BRE) for KT and JC appears to have online playing records as a former player at http://thornliecc.wa.cricket.com.au
Anybody know if BRE was in any Cricket Clubs? Especially Thornlie?


I think you'd find he was a football player. According to my daughter who's been told he spoke about football a lot. To the point it became annoying.

Also, cricket is played on the Sutherlands Park in Gay St, which was close to where BREs parents lived.
 
Thanks Meticulously,
I have gone to the media only thread#75 and found this:
Video: 'He Who Waits' (Full Program - 2004) - 'Australian Story'
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specia...p2/default.htm

However when I go to abc can not find or access this video. I searched name and date, and this title did not come up. Can you please advise or post full frame photo is you have it?
 
Hi Spinnaker,
I agree that it is possible the drivers door didn't open from inside, but I think the crush damage sustained by the car is the important clue in this case.

I agree with 707 when he posted on last thread:

707 Quote: Because there is a possibility that the damage to the cars roof ,and it ending up in the ocean are two entirely distinct and seperate events-...
"...Cars of that era were built tough-they had four strong pillars and didnt crumble upon impact like modern vehicles.
It is not my area of specialty but a force to crush the roof of this car to the bottom of the windows would have been more than any force sustained in a crash, whether on road, from a height, rocks or ocean. My guess is that this damage occurred in a car crusher or similar. Note that also there seemed to be no damage to front, side or back or car.

#707 can you please elaborate or your point that you think he was very, very, very lucky not be caught? Any time in the scenario that you think he came close to being caught?
 
I think you'd find he was a football player. According to my daughter who's been told he spoke about football a lot. To the point it became annoying.

Also, cricket is played on the Sutherlands Park in Gay St, which was close to where BREs parents lived.
Apparently Thornlie Sports Club ran both the Cricket and the Football teams, but as I posted before, it seems the player I thought was the same POI for a road rage incident in 1986 that's almost uncanny in similarities to what's described as happened to Julie Cutler in weeks before her disappearance, who was working in Cottesloe/Claremont area at the time according to a CCC report, is not the same person in the Thornlie cricket team. Maybe a cousin or nephew, due to being such an unusual surname.

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Is it possible car entered the water elsewhere along the coast & almost 3 days later shows up at Cott? Trying to understand tides & drift patterns but I'm a slow learner.
 
Hi Spinnaker,
I agree that it is possible the drivers door didn't open from inside, but I think the crush damage sustained by the car is the important clue in this case.

I agree with 707 when he posted on last thread:

707 Quote: Because there is a possibility that the damage to the cars roof ,and it ending up in the ocean are two entirely distinct and seperate events-...
"...Cars of that era were built tough-they had four strong pillars and didnt crumble upon impact like modern vehicles.
It is not my area of specialty but a force to crush the roof of this car to the bottom of the windows would have been more than any force sustained in a crash, whether on road, from a height, rocks or ocean. My guess is that this damage occurred in a car crusher or similar. Note that also there seemed to be no damage to front, side or back or car.

#707 can you please elaborate or your point that you think he was very, very, very lucky not be caught? Any time in the scenario that you think he came close to being caught?
A lot of older model cars were lemons when it came to crash testing. Fiat and Volkswagen were notorious for decapitation of occupation when it came to door pillars. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-worst-crash-tests-cars-smashed-oblivion.html

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Thanks Meticulously,
I have gone to the media only thread#75 and found this:
Video: 'He Who Waits' (Full Program - 2004) - 'Australian Story'
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specia...p2/default.htm

However when I go to abc can not find or access this video. I searched name and date, and this title did not come up. Can you please advise or post full frame photo is you have it?

https://youtu.be/qHrouA7-yr8

https://youtu.be/3FtGQA9ckO8

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A lot of older model cars were lemons when it came to crash testing. Fiat and Volkswagen were notorious for decapitation of occupation when it came to door pillars. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-worst-crash-tests-cars-smashed-oblivion.html

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Hi Pete Davo, I found this interesting excerpt taken from old Daily Mail newspaper, identifying JC's car as a 1968 Fiat 125.
Daily News 30th June 1988: the car is now a 1968 Fiat 125 sedan. The paper prints a photograph of a poster that Julie’s friends and family are distributing that shows two photos of Julie and a picture of a similar car. Julie’s 21-year-old sister, Nicole pleads, “For God’s sake let her go!” Nicole, the paper says, is sure that her sister would not have run away without any money or without telling them. There was no way she would have just left her car in the place it was found either- she would have sold it, Nicole says.
Police appeal for anyone who finds a light-brown leather handbag and a plastic bag with a white blouse and black skirt (her hotel uniform) inside it to inform them."



clip_image002.jpg

[video=youtube;uGoSauHtC-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGoSauHtC-8[/video]
Not sure if the pic will come out. You tube video is crash testing of 12 small cars in 1980. Ten failed, Toyoto Corolla and Tarcel, Honda Civic and Prelude, Datson 310 and 200 sx, Subaru GLR, Mazda 626, VW Rabbit convertable and Audi 400d. Two passed, Chevy Chevette and Fiat Strada. This seems to be the same as Fiat 125 Berlina 1967/68. They go into detail of the body strengthening specs in manufacture.
I had an old Ford Escort in early to mid 80's that was built like a tank. I would be interested in force that it would take to crush to the bottom of windows. If you can see the picture is has a very high
attachment.php
square shape
 

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  • 1968 Fiat 125.PNG
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Apparently Thornlie Sports Club ran both the Cricket and the Football teams, but as I posted before, it seems the player I thought was the same POI for a road rage incident in 1986 that's almost uncanny in similarities to what's described as happened to Julie Cutler in weeks before her disappearance, who was working in Cottesloe/Claremont area at the time according to a CCC report, is not the same person in the Thornlie cricket team. Maybe a cousin or nephew, due to being such an unusual surname.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk[/QUOAs

As I typed before he (BRE) probably got his license in Dec 1985. It was probably about then, that he ditched his push bike and went out annoying women in a car. The timing is right.
 
It has been hard to get information as there was little reporting in the early days and some conflicting reports and assumptions that police may have made.

It seems her car was found within a few hours of it going in the water with its headlights still on and this was deduced from battery life left.

Little or any tidal movement but on its way in, a southerly current, no storms at the time. I'm attaching a summary of some of the articles.

My question Spinnaker was why did she have a black evening dress and her work uniform in a plastic bag, but one of these articles seems to say she had work until 9.00.pm then a work function until seen at 12.30 am and plastic bag with work shirt and pantyhose handed in after being left at King Kebabs. (this may be another article, I have).

"finished her shift at a posh central Perth hotellate on the Sunday night, donned her fast-gear and aimed for the dance floor.The Parmelia Hilton was holding a staff awards night and Julie Cutler wasinvited.

At around 12.30 am the next morning, Monday 20th June, wearing a high-collaredblack evening dress, with gold buttons on the shoulder, and a pair of blackpatent leather shoes Julie leaves the nightclub and heads for the staff carpark. She is seen by another member of staff unlocking the passenger side doorof her car (apparently the driver’s side door could not be opened from theoutside). A witness spots Julie sitting in the front of her car in the car parkand rummaging through her bag. It is the last known sighting of her.

Later that same day a car’s backseat was retrieved from the sea, near thegroyne, at Cottesloe Beach. According to newspaper reports, it wasn’t until theafternoon of Wednesday, the 22nd June that the car the seat belonged to wasnoticed - upside-down in the surf close to Cottesloe Beach groyne that pointslike a wand west and towards the environs of Rottnest Island. The car, a Fiat125 was Julie's.

The ‘West Australian’ newspaper, which had been rather quiet about Julie'sdisappearance, announced on page 8 of its 23rd June edition, that Julie’s 1963(sic) Fiat sedan had been found early on Wednesday afternoon, in the surf nextto the groyne at Cottesloe Beach. They said that Det. Sgt. Vince Katich, who isin charge of the investigation, is mystified and remained open- minded regardingwhat might have happened to Julie.

On Friday 24th June 1988, on page 3 (a whole 5 pages more prominence) the ‘WestAustralian’ reports that the back seat of Julie’s car was found in the sea,near the groyne, on Monday. Thecar was discovered 35 metres from the beach and had been left with its ignitionand lights on, front driver’s side window open, rear doors locked and bothfront doors unlocked. Det. Sgt. Katich is appealing for a man and a woman seenexiting the hotel just after Julie to come forward. Police also appeal foranyone who saw Julie’s car parked either on the slip road near the surf club ornearby to contact them.

On Wednesday 29th June, on page 3, the ‘West Australian’ writes that the Fiatis grey and that Julie worked as a barmaid at the hotel. The newspaper saysthat a woman phoned their offices on Monday 27th and asked to be left alone.They report that Julie’s sister, Nicole says it might have been Julie.

The Daily News (a now defunt paper) 23rd June edition, led the day with newsthat Julie’s car was a two-tone Fiat sedan; Julie’s mother was dead and thather father, Roger Cutler who lived in Kalgoorlie, was un-contactable at thetime of Julie’s disappearance. In the same edition, on page 6, a lengthytwo-day article started on the 13-year-old unsolved execution of societybrothel madam, Shirley Finn.
The Friday 24th edition, on page 7, says that Julie’s car was a 1973 two-toneFiat sedan and that she worked as a room-service employee at the hotel. Parttwo of the Shirley Finn story continues.
On page 12 of Monday’s Daily News Julie’s dad, Roger is interviewed. He isconvinced that Julie is dead. He says that there was no reason for her to runaway and that whenever she had a problem, no matter what, she would talk to himabout it. She is just not the sort of girl who would do this, he said. MrCutler said that Julie had been away for 6 months the previous year; travellingin Europe and that whenever she was worried about anything while she was awayshe would contact him. He said she was working in the Parmelia Hilton tofinance her next trip away. Julie, he said, had bought her car with money shehad saved herself. It was described as a two-tone Fiat sedan with a gun-barrelgrey bottom and silver-grey top.
Daily News 30th June 1988: the car is now a 1968 Fiat 125 sedan. The paperprints a photograph of a poster that Julie’s friends and family aredistributing that shows two photos of Julie and a picture of a similar car.Julie’s 21-year-old sister, Nicole pleads, “For God’s sake let her go!” Nicole,the paper says, is sure that her sister would not have run away without anymoney or without telling them. There was no way she would have just left hercar in the place it was found either- she would have sold it, Nicole says.
Police appeal for anyone who finds a light-brown leather handbag and a plasticbag with a white blouse and black skirt (her hotel uniform) inside it to informthem."


 
Apparently Thornlie Sports Club ran both the Cricket and the Football teams, but as I posted before, it seems the player I thought was the same POI for a road rage incident in 1986 that's almost uncanny in similarities to what's described as happened to Julie Cutler in weeks before her disappearance, who was working in Cottesloe/Claremont area at the time according to a CCC report, is not the same person in the Thornlie cricket team. Maybe a cousin or nephew, due to being such an unusual surname.

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As I typed before he (BRE) probably got his license in Dec 1985. It was probably about then, that he ditched his push bike and went out annoying women in a car. The timing is right.
When was BRE dating his first to be wife? Was it when her family still owned the restaurant in Mosman Park? Could he of been hanging around the Western Suburbs when JC went missing?
There's evidence the other POI 2-4 years older than BRE working shift work in the area. But still, that's only coincidence, and suspicion based upon a news article of a "Maniac" road rage incident by that POI 2 years before. But since researching I've found other similar road rage incidents by many others, so it's probably just coincidence and no more.
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When was BRE dating his first to be wife? Was it when her family still owned the restaurant in Mosman Park? Could he of been hanging around the Western Suburbs when JC went missing?
There's evidence the other POI 2-4 years older than BRE working shift work in the area. But still, that's only coincidence, and suspicion based upon a news article of a "Maniac" road rage incident by that POI 2 years before. But since researching I've found other similar road rage incidents by many others, so it's probably just coincidence and no more.
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To:petedavo,

From what I surmise BRE was with the first wife when he was quite young (About 1990 when he was 20). It was his second wife who's parents had the French restaurant in the western suburbs. Fortunately I don't know the creep personally!
 
Also, one of the former POIs (M..k D.x..) worked in catering within the western suburbs. Evidently he's 6ft 3" with dark hair. Similar characteristics to BRE who's 6ft 2".
 
Hi Spinnaker,
I agree that it is possible the drivers door didn't open from inside, but I think the crush damage sustained by the car is the important clue in this case.

I agree with 707 when he posted on last thread:

707 Quote: Because there is a possibility that the damage to the cars roof ,and it ending up in the ocean are two entirely distinct and seperate events-...
"...Cars of that era were built tough-they had four strong pillars and didnt crumble upon impact like modern vehicles.
It is not my area of specialty but a force to crush the roof of this car to the bottom of the windows would have been more than any force sustained in a crash, whether on road, from a height, rocks or ocean. My guess is that this damage occurred in a car crusher or similar. Note that also there seemed to be no damage to front, side or back or car.

#707 can you please elaborate or your point that you think he was very, very, very lucky not be caught? Any time in the scenario that you think he came close to being caught?

Monday Night in Inner City Perth Nightclub land 20 June 1988 it is going to be a slow night.
At the Parmelia Hilton it is Hospitality Staff who all pretty much know each other ,a smattering of interstate/ international guests, Miners on break,Northbridge types and the odd Hooker.
JC has left her purse at home,she is not working four hours minimum wage to then spend it on after work drinks. Free or nothing at the staff function. A few other hospitality workers from surrounding nightclubs are also aware of/ invited to the after work function.
In the car park as she leaves JC is possibly tricked into to giving her abductor a ride home- South of the River. ? Car broken down.? Too much to drink.? Sure why not.
After rebuffing unwanted advances she is assaulted, put in the back seat then driven to a remote location.
Whilst returning from this location her killer rolls the car ,and has to limp it back into Perth, cover /hide it, then brazenly drive it down to the surf in Cottesloe-perhaps as another poster has surmised, intending to dump the back seat there before realising he could get the whole car in.
Fearfull of publicity jogging the memory of someone who has assisted him with the recovery and disposal at some stage,(tow truck driver, farmer ,passerby ) he has afterwards called the West Australian Newspaper claiming to be JC and not wanting a fuss made or to be found. The last thing he wanted was a front page picture of the Fiat.

So I think he came close to being caught
A as an informal aquaintance of JC through work
B rolling the car , having to store /hide it for a day or two
C driving the damaged car through suburban back streets and into the sea without being observed.
All JMO and theory.
 
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