Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

[Ausgirl]

doradodds, I'm not making anything up.

Personal attacks do not make your point any more valid.

 

[Cattail]

I am keeping an open mind. I do not "know" what happened to Jenny but after carefully reading all the evidence I have been able to find I can find none that would point to anything other than suicide. I need to add that I have had extensive experience with suicide, its aftermath and the denial and blame from those left behind. I have also experienced and noted the devastating effects on innocent people coming from the irrational-thinking side of people intent on "witch-hunting" or even viewing such cases as entertainment. Because of all this I am very very careful to ensure I at lease afford the presumption of innocence to all people unless or until some evidence to the contrary is available. I also get very very annoyed and angry when I witness malicious gossip spread where the spreaders have not bothered to check the accuracy of what they spread. I like the moral of doing unto others as I would have done unto me. This is why I loath to read comments here such that PC "moved his lover in soon after Jenny died" because there is no evidence he had a lover, no evidence he moved anyone in so to speak BUT there is in fact evidence to the contrary. What if the woman living there when he sold the house was a tenant - how insulting to both PC and her is it to suggest she was his lover.

I appreciate your viewpoint. Personally I really struggle to see someone choosing this method for suicide. Not because of its violence. What I find hard to believe about it is the lack of certainty of it working at all, the huge possibility of it working in a very slow and painful way, and the real possibility of it leading to her surviving with more chronic pain and health problems to add to her back pain. jmo.

 

[Ausgirl]

SouthAussie,

1. DS Osborn was promoted to DSS.

2. That is, imo, a pertinent question.

3. Dunno, but it's a good idea.

 

[Cattail]

therefore it would not matter that the knife is destroyed and not fingerprint evidence was collected - if there was someone other than Jenny involved and they wore gloves there would be no fingerprints.

I thought this type of evidence was routinely kept for a number of years after cases were closed. I am surprised that it would be destroyed.

 

[doradodds]

Jenny's hand was rotated 180 degrees postmortem, this fact was noted - perhaps you missed it. Dead people do not rotate their own hands. So another person was indeed present some time after Jenny died, but prior to her body entering full rigor. This fact alone is enough to warrant a possibility of homicide.



You are not alone, there. And as someone who has also experienced all this, I still see reason to suspect homicide. Also, personal attacks don't make your point any more valid.




Perhaps you also missed my response to the 'moved in' issue above? Please do read it. And then read again what I said about personal attacks.

Ausgirl - sorry but can not find your response to the "moved in" issue and am quite perplexed with regard to your accusation of personal attacks. Please elaborate here. I am sorry if you feel I have personally attacked you as that is not my intention. Please point out the said personal attacks so i know what you are talking about.

Also - I am so sorry you have come into being involved in all the ugly circumstances involving suicide in a professional manner. Has your understanding of all the issues of suicide and what it leaves behind been affected by any personal experiences? There is, as I have found, a vast difference to the level of understanding between being involved and detached and involved and attached.

 

[SouthAussie]

SouthAussie,

1. DS Osborn was promoted to DSS.

2. That is, imo, a pertinent question.

3. Dunno, but it's a good idea.

BBM :thud: The Peter Principle in overdrive

 

[MsAnais]

Ausgirl - sorry but can not find your response to the "moved in" issue and am quite perplexed with regard to your accusation of personal attacks. Please elaborate here. I am sorry if you feel I have personally attacked you as that is not my intention. Please point out the said personal attacks so i know what you are talking about.

Also - I am so sorry you have come into being involved in all the ugly circumstances involving suicide in a professional manner. Has your understanding of all the issues of suicide and what it leaves behind been affected by any personal experiences? There is, as I have found, a vast difference to the level of understanding between being involved and detached and involved and attached.

Dora - I am the one with professional experience, not Ausgirl (as far as I know).

You've got confused about who has written what.

And regarding understanding suicide, being a 'detached' professional - as you put it - does not negate my understanding of it IMO. I have worked with hundreds of people who have attempted suicide. I have sat with them and their families for hours and weeks and months in the aftermath, as well as with families who have lost loved ones to suicide.

But none of this has ANYTHING to do with the logical analysis of Jenny's case. This requires a cool, objective head - not emotion laden responses. Emotion clouds judgement, big-time.

 

[Ausgirl]

therefore it would not matter that the knife is destroyed and not fingerprint evidence was collected - if there was someone other than Jenny involved and they wore gloves there would be no fingerprints.

I must disagree that it 'would not matter'. Rubber gloves do sometimes leave prints, just not defined ones.

The SOCO who lifted the DNA did not think it didn't matter, either - he states in the inquest report that had he been "the decision maker" he would have dusted the knife handle after the dna material was taken.

 

[FigTree]

Respectfully snipped by me...

Did the coroner not say that the only conclusion with all the evidence available was Jenny committed suicide?

No, the Coroner was unable to conclude that as fact.

From the Coroner: Findings of the Inquest - page 26:
How she died:
Quoted: I am unable to determine whether or not Ms Cook committed suicide.


It was the Police who concluded that it was a suicide:
Page 30: From the Findings of the Inquest - Page 30:
Quoted: As stated above, investigating police concluded on 20 January 2009 that Ms Cook committed suicide against a background of back injury and depression.

 

[doradodds]

Jenny's hand was rotated 180 degrees postmortem, this fact was noted - perhaps you missed it. Dead people do not rotate their own hands. So another person was indeed present some time after Jenny died, but prior to her body entering full rigor. This fact alone is enough to warrant a possibility of homicide.


Ausgirl "Jenny's hand was rotated 180 degrees postmortem, this fact was noted - perhaps you missed it. Dead people do not rotate their own hands. So another person was indeed present some time after Jenny died, but prior to her body entering full rigor. This fact alone is enough to warrant a possibility of homicide."

Perhaps I missed all this but can you tell me:

How is it determined this was rotated postmortem?
When did her body enter full rigor mortis?
Could PC have moved her hand when he discovered her lying there when he checked her for signs of life?

 

[Ausgirl]

How is it determined this was rotated postmortem?
When did her body enter full rigor mortis?
Could PC have moved her hand when he discovered her lying there when he checked her for signs of life?

1. The lividity showed her hand had been moved.
2. I have no way of ascertaining that, but allegedly at some point prior to the time Paul Cook arrived home.
3. When Cook was first questioned about his actions that evening, at the house, he said only that he'd "moved her lips". Later, when questioned at the police station he added that he tried to move her arm but could not, due to rigor. In the inquest findings, it is stated that all police and paramedics, and Paul Cook, all declared that none of them had at all moved her body.

 

[FigTree]

How is it determined this was rotated postmortem?
When did her body enter full rigor mortis?
Could PC have moved her hand when he discovered her lying there when he checked her for signs of life?

Re: Q2
Time of Death:
OFFICE OF THE STATE CORONER
FINDINGS OF INQUEST

Quote: The last known contact with Ms Cook was by an officer at WorkCover Qld who had a phone conversation with Ms Cook at 8.49am on 19 January 2009.
-----
Quote: Ms Pullen tried to call her daughter a number of times between 10.30am and 11am (Qld time) on 19 January but she did not answer the phone. Mr Cook called the home phone after lunch but there was no answer.
-----
Queensland Ambulance paramedics, Robert Haydon and Christopher O’Connor, were the first to arrive on the scene. They received a call to attend 44 Sheerwater Parade at 7.51pm.

-----------------
SMH. Read More…

Quote: This raised questions about where he had been until 6.45pm, when he arrived home, as the drive between the jail and Sheerwater Parade is about 15 minutes. (Jenny Lee was suspected of dying some time between 8am and 2pm, according to the autopsy.)

Quote: Haydon saw that rigor mortis had set in. It appeared to him that Ms Cook had been deceased for ‘a period of time’. The paramedics pronounced Ms Cook deceased at 7.58pm.

----------

Rigor Mortis:
Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away...
Once the contracting of all the body's muscles has taken place this state of Rigor - technically referred to as the Rigid Stage - normally lasts anything from eight to twelve hours after which time the body is completely stiff; this fixed state lasts for up to another eighteen hours.

It is worth noting that lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed as blood vessels begin to break down within the body.

---------------


In light of this I have a question:
Why was there no evidence of Fly or insect contamination on the body if Jenny had been deceased for this amount of time and if she was outside during the day in good weather?

It leads me to ask:
Why there is no insect contamination.
Was Jenny outside during the day?

Is the autopsy report available anywhere?

 

[MsAnais]

Excellent sleuthing, Figtree. And excellent questions.

We all want to read the autopsy report.......

 

[Ausgirl]

Those are excellent questions, Figgy.

Especially in light of the fact there was blood on her body, and it was high summer. Flies galore.

I would very much like to see the autopsy report. How might one go about requesting this, if possible, in Queensland?

eta: jinx, Isis!

 

[MsAnais]

I just read this on Qld Courts website (bbm):

How can I get a copy of the autopsy report?

An autopsy report is a detailed report prepared by the doctor or pathologist for the coroner. The report is prepared after all of the test results have been received and it outlines the doctor’s conclusions about the medical cause of death.

Family members or other persons with a sufficient interest can request a copy of the autopsy report by writing to the coroner.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/courts/coroners-court/common-questions/autopsies#How can I get a copy of the autopsy report?

I wonder if her family have read it?

 

[MsAnais]

And there's this info about accessing coronial documents in Qld:

The Coroners Act 2003 imposes strict limitations on the release of coronial documents because these documents contain highly sensitive and very personal information.

The coroner must consent to the release of the information and it can only be released if the coroner is satisfied that the person seeking the documents has an appropriate interest in the information (for example an immediate family member).

The coroner can also release information if satisfied it is in the public interest for the information to be released. For example, the coroner might release information about a dangerous product to the media to ensure the public is made aware of the danger. In these cases the coroner must consult with the family before releasing the information.

Applications for access to coronial documents must be in writing and must include the following information:

your name, address and contact number
the deceased’s name and the date and location of their death
your relationship to the deceased
a list of the documents you are seeking. If you are unsure which documents you require please give examples of the type of information you are seeking
your reason/s for wanting copies of the documents
your signature or signed authority from the next of kin or interested party.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/courts/coroners-court/access-to-coronial-documents

 

[MsAnais]

I'm wondering how we all had access to Allison Baden-Clay's autopsy report? That was a Qld case as well. Does that mean a family member of hers allowed it to be made public?

 

[Cattail]

I'm wondering how we all had access to Allison Baden-Clay's autopsy report? That was a Qld case as well. Does that mean a family member of hers allowed it to be made public?

I could be wrong Isisrising(lovely name) but I thought some generous WS members paid for court documents. Not sure if that includes the autopsy report.

 

[MsAnais]

I could be wrong Isisrising(lovely name) but I thought some generous WS members paid for court documents. Not sure if that includes the autopsy report.

Yes, Cattail, they did indeed.

I'm wondering how they got the autopsy report though, after reading this? Unless some of them were family/close friends........(maybe they were).

Shall ask them. I'd love it if we could get Jenny's.

 

[MsAnais]

A new book has just been published about prison guards and life in jail. 'Tis about Long Bay jail in NSW, but it is kind of pertinent here as it explores the prison officer culture. Sounds interesting:

Guards working at Sydney's Long Bay Jail dished out regular beatings to notorious inmates paedophile Dennis Ferguson and gang-rape leader Bilal Skaf — a book on life behind the prison's bars has revealed.

The book Australia's Hardest Prison: Inside the Walls of Long Bay Jail reveals an unofficial system of rough justice that was dished out by guards to some of its more infamous prisoners whose names were known and despised by inmates and the public alike.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...system-in-long-bay-prison#GfUjZoBiaZXyuaqU.99