Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #15 *Arrest*

[moreinfo]

Thank you to those that recalled previous cases about those being convicted of murder without finding the cause and or body.
Just find it strange then that Charlie would come out with such a comment given that he was a homocide detective.

 

[sosocurious]

Thank you to those that recalled previous cases about those being convicted of murder without finding the cause and or body.
Just find it strange then that Charlie would come out with such a comment given that he was a homocide detective.

Yes I agree mi.

I was just reading this article from 2010 and thinking how things have changed over the years.

The body is no longer the only evidence in a murder trial, says Michael Kennedy, a policing and social sciences expert at the University of Western Sydney.

"We have access to a whole range of forensic and electronic information which never existed once," says Kennedy, a former detective. "NSW police weren't able to tap telephones until about 1990."...

"Murder prosecutions where there are no bodies are still pretty rare but some cases have been able to be launched now, which perhaps would not have been launched before the passing of the Evidence Act because of the ability to lead tendency or coincidence evidence," the lawyer said.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/no...d62675a16?sv=e24dbfaf5a82f9e64dd65234b4375992

Karen's was found. Is the cause of death known...maybe, maybe not.
When did Charlie leave the force? I guess a lot has changed since he retired as well.

 

[CalliopeGG]

Deleted this post .... whoopsie, the case of Keith Allan already mentioned in Steve's post

I enjoyed it too. Lots of parallels. Interesting they chose Mt Macedon and were operating from the same side of town. Damn those luxury German cars! Who would know to apply the handbrake with a foot pedal and release it with a hidden lever, only a Mercedes aficionado like poor Keith. It was like he stuck it to them from the grave. How unfortunate for them that the burial implements were in the back too. What a bumbling pair. I see they were unable to find the grave site as well and had to come back a week later. I presume it was their first time. I think this shows how much can easily go wrong, even in a premeditated crime.

All good stuff to think about whilst waiting for a development in this case.


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/30/1091080431940.html

 

[emirates1957]

We have had people convicted of murder in NZ with no bodies ever recovered and I am sure there must be cases like that in Australia no bodies ever recovered but murder charges proven. Lindy Chamberlain was convicted of murder with no body found although pardoned later. Obviously without a confession the cause of death can never be proven if no body is found and even if it is sometimes cause of death still cant be 100% confirmed.

1980s
In 1984, Mark Tildesley, a seven-year-old schoolboy, disappeared after leaving his home to go to the fairground in Wokingham, Berkshire, England. In 1990 it emerged that, on the night he disappeared, Tildesley had been abducted, drugged, tortured, raped and murdered by a London-based paedophile gang, led by Sidney Cooke. Another man named Leslie Bailey was charged with murder in 1991 and the following year was given two life sentences. Bailey was murdered in prison by other inmates shortly afterwards.[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] The case remains unsolved despite being featured heavily in the national press and on BBC TV'sCrimewatch.
In 1988 Helen McCourt, a 22-year-old insurance clerk from Lancashire disappeared. Ian Simms, a local pub landlord, was subsequently charged with and convicted of her murder. This case was also one of the first in the UK to use DNA fingerprinting.
American courts have also been allowed to press murder charges even if a body has not been recovered. In 1990, a Connecticut jury convicted Newtown airline pilot Richard Crafts of killing his Danish wife Helle in the 1986 "woodchipper murder", so called for the machine he had rented to dispose of her body in nearby lakes and streams. He was sentenced to 50 years in prison. The state police's forensic unit, led by Henry Lee, was able to match the DNA of some of the fragments that were discovered to Helle Crafts and the wood chipper her husband had used. It was the first bodyless murder trial in the state's history.

1990s
In 1996, Thomas Capano was convicted of the murder of Anne Marie Fahey, his former lover. Investigators did not have a murder weapon or body, nor any evidence that Capano had purchased a gun. He was convicted of first-degree murder in part due to the evidence given by his brother Gerry, who had admitted to helping Capano dump Fahey's body in the Atlantic Ocean.
In May 1999 the New Zealand High Court convicted Scott Watson of the murder of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope. Their bodies have never been found
.
2000s
In 2000, prosecutors in Orange County, New York, secured that jurisdiction's first-ever bodyless murder conviction. Gregory Chrysler and Lawrence Weygant were found guilty of beating Dominick Pendino, a coworker they mistakenly believed had given police the tip that had led to their arrest on drug-dealing charges, to death with a baseball bat and disposing of his body. They relied on eyewitness testimony from a former girlfriend and police informant, as well as forensic evidence showing that enough of Pendino's blood stained a car seat for him to have died without immediate medical attention. Neither the body nor the bat have been discovered: Chrysler and Weygant remain in prison and have rebuffed efforts to elicit the body's location from them.
In June 2001, Essex teenager Danielle Jones went missing and despite a body never being found, the required circumstantial evidence was provided by forensic analysis of text messages sent by the accused, her uncle Stuart Campbell, who was convicted of her murder 18 months later. Police determined that Campbell had sent text messages from Danielle's mobile phone to his own after she disappeared, to make it appear that she was still alive, and noted that the spelling of several words in the text messages sent from Danielle's mobile phone had changed after she was reported missing. Their suspicions were also supported by mobile phone records which showed that Campbell's mobile phone, and that of his missing niece, were within a short distance of each other when the messages were sent.
In 2002, Girly Chew Hossencofft's husband and his mistress were convicted of her murder, which occurred in 1999. Hossencofft's remains have never been located.
In spite of advances in forensic technology, the possibility of the supposed victim turning up alive remains. In 2003, Leonard Fraser, having allegedly confessed to the murder of teenager Natasha Ryan, was on trial for this, and other murders, when she reappeared after having been missing for four years.
In 2006, prosecutors in Nashville, Tennessee, had Perry March arrested and extradited from Mexico after he had been secretly indicted on charges of murdering his wife Janet, who had disappeared in 1996. An attempt to have March's in-laws killed while March was awaiting trial led to the arrest of his father, who as part of a plea agreement confessed to burying his daughter-in-law in a pile of brush near Bowling Green, Kentucky, but he was unable to lead police to the body after the intervening nine years. Perry March was convicted in 2006 almost ten years to the day after his wife disappeared.
In the Australian no-body murder of Keith William Allan, evidence from forensic accountants established a motive for his murder. The chance police finding of one perpetrator driving Allan's car and the conduct of all perpetrators, in particular mobile telephone records, were also important factors in their conviction.
In 2007 in Omaha, Nebraska, Christopher Edwards was convicted of murdering his girlfriend Jessica O'Grady, whose body has never been found. His mattress was soaked with her blood.
In 2008, Hans Reiser was convicted of first degree murder of his wife, Nina Reiser. After conviction and before sentencing, Reiser pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of second degree murder in exchange for disclosing the location of his wife's body.

2010s
In 2012, in Scotland the prosecution twice won a conviction without a body in the murder of Suzanne Pilley and the murder of Arlene Fraser.
In May 2013, Mark Bridger was convicted of the murder of April Jones, a five-year-old girl from Machynlleth, Powys, Wales, who disappeared on 1 October 2012. At his trial, Bridger claimed to have run her down in his car and killed her by accident, and to have no memory of what he did with her body after drinking heavily. The jury rejected his version of events, as bone fragments and blood discovered in Bridger's house within days of her disappearance were matched to the DNA of April Jones. The body of April Jones was not found despite the largest missing person search in UK history. Bridger claimed in court that April's DNA was found in his house as he had held her body there before disposing of it, but his claims were not believed by the jury.

Here is hoping history repeats:

Thanks Steve, what a brilliant read, much appreciated.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I enjoyed it too. Lots of parallels. Interesting they chose Mt Macedon and were operating from the same side of town. Damn those luxury German cars! Who would know to apply the handbrake with a foot pedal and release it with a hidden lever, only a Mercedes aficionado like poor Keith. It was like he stuck it to them from the grave. How unfortunate for them that the burial implements were in the back too. What a bumbling pair. I see they were unable to find the grave site as well and had to come back a week later. I presume it was their first time. I think this shows how much can easily go wrong, even in a premeditated crime.

All good stuff to think about whilst waiting for a development in this case.


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/30/1091080431940.html

Thanks CalliopeGG, indeed there are a lot of parallels here. Dreadfully sad case ..... I must say, of all the cases I've transcribed over the years, that is the one that has stayed with me, will never forget it ..... such a lovely man, with unexpected evil swirling around him ....

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[SouthAussie]

Thanks CalliopeGG, indeed there are a lot of parallels here. Dreadfully sad case ..... I must say, of all the cases I've transcribed over the years, that is the one that has stayed with me, will never forget it ..... such a lovely man, with unexpected evil swirling around him ....

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Many parallels in the cases! A very good read.

I think the important thing to remember is one thing that was stated in the article .... Murder cases are usually prised open rather than cracked. They are solved by degrees rather than by single, blinding breakthroughs.

 

[moreinfo]

We were told SR was close to her mum and called her a few times a day.
Police are keeping this close to their chest. No info released to the public. Do you think they will eventually leak this out.

Her mobile records for that day would show
1. No calls/texts made during the day she went missing indicating she was aware of what happened before she left for school that morning

2. Calls/texts made during the day like every other day. Perhaps even with voice mail messages indicating none the wiser what was going on

And.... If she couldn't get hold of her mum on mobile, staff could verify whether it was customary for Sarah to call the Bella bleu shop daily and ask for her. Did they receive a call that day from SR asking to speak to her mum?

Police can surely gather a pattern of frequency of contact to her mother and texting style to see if anything has stuck out us uncharacteristic that day surely.
Oh and another thing, if SR was close to her mother, and KR had gone for a walk to let out some steam and her walk lasted a while, one would think she'd just call her daughter for comfort or if KR didn't get a chance to speak to her daughter earlier that morning b/c she left early , maybe that could have been a great opportunity on her walk to give SR a call . Did police find evidence of any morning calls made to SR by KR?

Again if KR did go for a walk to cool down , she'd know that she would be late for work, did police find evidence of calls/texts made by KR to her business no. or staff mobiles that morning?

If KR was planning to go in late to work that morning, were staff advised the day before.? We've also been told it wasn't like Karen to not show up for work. Do these text or calls exist to her staff??? We've also been told from memory her staff were trying to contact KR and BR? to work out why she hadn't shown up by 11:30am? Think that was right.

If staff weren't aware of her lateness that day, and she regularly started at 9, would it be right to assume she didn't go for a walk that morning b/c she would have made sure Bella Bleu staff knew when she was planning to get in or that she would just be in later at some stage.

 

[Estelle]

We were told SR was close to her mum and called her a few times a day.
Police are keeping this close to their chest. No info released to the public. Do you think they will eventually leak this out.

Her mobile records for that day would show
1. No calls/texts made during the day she went missing indicating she was aware of what happened before she left for school that morning

2. Calls/texts made during the day like every other day. Perhaps even with voice mail messages indicating none the wiser what was going on

And.... If she couldn't get hold of her mum on mobile, staff could verify whether it was customary for Sarah to call the Bella bleu shop daily and ask for her. Did they receive a call that day from SR asking to speak to her mum?

Police can surely gather a pattern of frequency of contact to her mother and texting style to see if anything has stuck out us uncharacteristic that day surely.
Oh and another thing, if SR was close to her mother, and KR had gone for a walk to let out some steam and her walk lasted a while, one would think she'd just call her daughter for comfort or if KR didn't get a chance to speak to her daughter earlier that morning b/c she left early , maybe that could have been a great opportunity on her walk to give SR a call . Did police find evidence of any morning calls made to SR by KR?

Again if KR did go for a walk to cool down , she'd know that she would be late for work, did police find evidence of calls/texts made by KR to her business no. or staff mobiles that morning?

If KR was planning to go in late to work that morning, were staff advised the day before.? We've also been told it wasn't like Karen to not show up for work. Do these text or calls exist to her staff??? We've also been told from memory her staff were trying to contact KR and BR? to work out why she hadn't shown up by 11:30am? Think that was right.

If staff weren't aware of her lateness that day, and she regularly started at 9, would it be right to assume she didn't go for a walk that morning b/c she would have made sure Bella Bleu staff knew when she was planning to get in or that she would just be in later at some stage.

You would make a good detective, moreinfo. Have the police examined these phone calls and used that as an excuse to re-interview SR about them? Maybe she would talk now if some pressure was put on to her and suspicions raised about her phone calls or lack of them

 

[sosocurious]

We were told SR was close to her mum and called her a few times a day.
Police are keeping this close to their chest. No info released to the public. Do you think they will eventually leak this out.

Her mobile records for that day would show
1. No calls/texts made during the day she went missing indicating she was aware of what happened before she left for school that morning

2. Calls/texts made during the day like every other day. Perhaps even with voice mail messages indicating none the wiser what was going on

And.... If she couldn't get hold of her mum on mobile, staff could verify whether it was customary for Sarah to call the Bella bleu shop daily and ask for her. Did they receive a call that day from SR asking to speak to her mum?

Police can surely gather a pattern of frequency of contact to her mother and texting style to see if anything has stuck out us uncharacteristic that day surely.
Oh and another thing, if SR was close to her mother, and KR had gone for a walk to let out some steam and her walk lasted a while, one would think she'd just call her daughter for comfort or if KR didn't get a chance to speak to her daughter earlier that morning b/c she left early , maybe that could have been a great opportunity on her walk to give SR a call . Did police find evidence of any morning calls made to SR by KR?

Again if KR did go for a walk to cool down , she'd know that she would be late for work, did police find evidence of calls/texts made by KR to her business no. or staff mobiles that morning?

If KR was planning to go in late to work that morning, were staff advised the day before.? We've also been told it wasn't like Karen to not show up for work. Do these text or calls exist to her staff??? We've also been told from memory her staff were trying to contact KR and BR? to work out why she hadn't shown up by 11:30am? Think that was right.

If staff weren't aware of her lateness that day, and she regularly started at 9, would it be right to assume she didn't go for a walk that morning b/c she would have made sure Bella Bleu staff knew when she was planning to get in or that she would just be in later at some stage.

Sarah phone records will be very interesting.
Was her phone switched off for a couple of hours that day as well? Where did it ping and has her alibi checked out?
It does seem it did not take long for the initial inquiry to question that Karen had not walked from the house at all with her coach bag, purse and $850 but mystery as to shoes.
Her phone pings obtained promptly and a very long way from home.

The communication or lack of, between Karen and her daughter will be telling. As will the communication between Borce and his daughter.

As Borce said Karen often went for a walk to clear her head but always returned within a couple of hours and she was expected at work at sometime that morning and her daughter said it is not like her to miss work.

The store employee had called to say Karen had not turned up for work that morning and as she usually returns from her walks within hours, says BR.
The communication between phones on the 29th should indicate some concern and panic you would think ... particularly between the phones of
Borce and Karen ...... messages texts as Karens phone was off
Sarah and Karen ....... messages and texts as Karens phone off

Borce to Sarah and Sarah to Borce ....... should have kicked off in earnest early that afternoon at the very least imo... escalating to close friends and family later that day and into the evening.

jmo

 

[KG1]

Borce knew KR was never going to work that day. Otherwise, why would he choose that day to take the Mercedes for a drive to attempt to fix the alleged long standing fuel gauge problem? KR then had no transport to the shop. Did KR leave alive in the Mercedes with Borce? Did something happen in the vehicle en route? Seems we will never know. MOO

 

[JLZ]

Borce knew KR was never going to work that day. Otherwise, why would he choose that day to take the Mercedes for a drive to attempt to fix the alleged long standing fuel gauge problem? KR then had no transport to the shop. Did KR leave alive in the Mercedes with Borce? Did something happen in the vehicle en route? Seems we will never know. MOO

BBM She could have taken the other car maybe? Called a taxi? If Karen wanted to be at the shop, Borce pissing off in her car wouldn't stop her.

I think BR is lying. But I can't get over AR. I don't know what BR is like or whether Karen wanted to leave the marriage. AR has a history of violence, he's avowedly sexist (calls it "old-school"), thinks men should control their wives' thoughts, his FB front page at one time linked to a pornographic site. He has entitled attitudes regarding the pair's money. He came into this disparaging the victim, as if preparing a defence in case he was caught. What if his old story about child abuse/an affair with Karen is a distortion of him having raped her long ago? BR can't account for one hundred minutes and you all say that's suspicious. AR can account for maybe half an hour, if the chemist visit stands, and won't say where he was the whole rest of the day.

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Borce knew KR was never going to work that day. Otherwise, why would he choose that day to take the Mercedes for a drive to attempt to fix the alleged long standing fuel gauge problem? KR then had no transport to the shop. Did KR leave alive in the Mercedes with Borce? Did something happen in the vehicle en route? Seems we will never know. MOO

Police wouldn't have kept the Mercedes if nothing suspicious was found within or associated with it.

 

[SouthAussie]

C'mon. raying:

There is a stinking murderer out there who has been walking around free for too long!

 

[tiddles24]

The never ending story on the death of Karen Ristevski...Come on Borcey...It's time to fess up...and you too Sarah.

But then again, he does have the very best Barrister in his field representing him...so what can we expect?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

This case will be solved by a member of the public now, either someone blabbing, through a falling out .... or if they trot out a reward [emoji848] .... just my own random thought.


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[Detective Willy]

Maybe BR has got away with murder?

This case will be solved by a member of the public now, either someone blabbing, through a falling out .... or if they trot out a reward [emoji848] .... just my own random thought.


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[steve richardson]

Maybe BR has got away with murder?

Victoria's version of OJ? The spade didn't fit the hole?

 

[Puggle]

Can't believe this case hasn't evolved yet..... something bigger going on here that we aren't aware of...

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Can't believe this case hasn't evolved yet..... something bigger going on here that we aren't aware of...

Indeed Puggle, I mean they do have a lot of clues ..... perhaps they're waiting for a signed confession to seal the deal ...... not sure [emoji848]

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[suspicious]

I just had a small brain wave, where the police were originally searching for Karen it was quite a few km from where she was found. Is it possible, he tried to dig in that first spot, couldn't dig it up. So moved her to the final location, and the soil is only from the first location?


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