Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #16 *Arrest*

[sosocurious]

I think that Ant is being called by the prosecution to testify about overhearing Karen saying that she planned to leave Borce when Sarah was 21. Likely, the police have also located who Karen was telling that to, and will put that person on the stand as well.

I don't think we are far off the mark in thinking that Karen planned to leave Borce, sick and tired of the financial schemes and messes, planned to start her life again without him. At least, that is the impression I am forming from these little tidbits we are hearing.

Ant - makes me a little nervous.

Magistrate Cameron also flagged Mr Rickard would need advice about incriminating himself in relation to drug use before he was cross-examined.

https://theworldnews.net/au-news/neckbone-mystery-aired-in-karen-ristevski-hearing

 

[SouthAussie]

Ant - makes me a little nervous.

Magistrate Cameron also flagged Mr Rickard would need advice about incriminating himself in relation to drug use before he was cross-examined.

https://theworldnews.net/au-news/neckbone-mystery-aired-in-karen-ristevski-hearing

Yes, I think anything he testifies to would need independant substantiation by someone else (a non-drug user preferably).

The defence could have a field day with his credibility due to his self-proclaimed ice addiction.

 

[Horror]

[video]https://www.facebook.com/9News/videos/1937984516249376/[/video]

In this clip they mention that SR & AR have the " right to object to giving evidence against their father & can also refuse to reveal conversation they have had with their father"....................

I didn’t realise they could object to giving evidence. I admit lazily I have never looked into that. I just always assumed not. I had a quick read now and you can due to breakdown of family unit, but it seems to state dependant on seriousness of charge. I can’t find a link that would be appropriate but thanks for sharing.
I literally learn something new everyday on WS it’s great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[steve richardson]

SR would have made a statement to police in the first two weeks of her mother having been reported as a missing person. The answers made by SR to questions put to her by LE along with any other claims that she may have made no doubt would become verbal statements to be recorded in Court to substantiate what was written. I can't see how one could not agree to appear in Court to do this as you are only verbally confirming your written statement to be a true and correct record of the facts as you saw them to be. The prosecution no doubt calls one up hoping that verbally the statements made to questioning may differ from previously recorded written statements made by a person. I don't think that media headlines 'shock prosecution witness in the murder case' should be taken out of context as SR would have always have been used as a witness in the case by the prosecution eg witness as to the last time that you saw KR. SR is just one of 29 prosecution witnesses.

 

[Horror]

SR would have made a statement to police in the first two weeks of her mother having been reported as a missing person. The answers made by SR to questions put to her by LE along with any other claims that she may have made no doubt would become verbal statements to be recorded in Court to substantiate what was written. I can't see how one could not agree to appear in Court to do this as you are only verbally confirming your written statement to be a true and correct record of the facts as you saw them to be. The prosecution no doubt calls one up hoping that verbally the statements made to questioning may differ from previously recorded written statements made by a person. I don't think that media headlines 'shock prosecution witness in the murder case' should be taken out of context as SR would have always have been used as a witness in the case by the prosecution eg witness as to the last time that you saw KR. SR is just one of 29 prosecution witnesses.

Hi Steve - we will all be thinking of you over this coming committal hearing. That is actual a very true statement. Thank you for the reminder. I have friends also in a tragic situation and what you have stated above is exactly what occurred with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tmar]

I wonder what the 'odd issue' is?

Jennifer, ?? signs of strangulation.
Check cases at present, regarding this finding: 'Sherman, Zahau' pointing to strangulation!!!

 

[tmar]

And really, what does it matter what the cause of death was? Are we expected to think that she walked miles from her home, killed herself between two fallen branches and then covered herself up with leaves and bush debris?

If findings point to strangulation, then it wasn't an 'accidental fall' from the stairs.

 

[SouthAussie]

I was remembering when a friend of the Ristevski family was explaining why Borce and Sarah clammed up .... remembering that they both clammed up very quickly.

A family friend who has been in daily contact with the Ristevski family for years and provided key support to Sarah and Borce in the wake of the murder described how police interviewing tactics led to a total breakdown in relations between the two camps.
“They were all cooperative at the start, (and) let the police interview them,” the friend said in a series of messages to news.com.au.
“Their houses, cars and phones were and maybe still are bugged, I’m sure. I think they just got sick of it because what first was questioning turned into abuse.”
It was the friend’s understanding that detectives pushed Ms Ristevski to “turn on her dad because (police believe) he’s guilty”.
http://www.whimn.com.au/talk/news/w...e/news-story/bcd20e5c9a16ad25bf3fb3b0dd781009

So it just confounds me how phone intercepts are going to be used in the trial. Either Borce forgot his phone was tapped - despite warning everyone about that - or the phone intercepts happened very, very early in the piece, prior to Borce and Sarah clamming up.

...... and there will be evidence about phone intercepts planted on Mr Ristevski during the investigation.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...e/news-story/3c0156772185a4b8c6a7b3a036b9ca20

 

[steve richardson]

Dental expert Dr Richard Bassed is also among the 29 witnesses

Pink teeth in a decomposed body can result from strangulation according to some medical reports.
In suffocation, where the mechanism is forcing the mouth and nose closed, there may be incised tooth marks on the innermucosal surfaces of the upper or lower lips, but these are not generally present in victims who have no teeth (you wouldn't need a medical degree to work that out!) .

 

[steve richardson]

I didn't take much notice of the Allison Baden-Clay murder but alarming how many similar points mirror KR's.

• Allison Baden-Clay died in suspicious circumstances. There is no evidence that she died of a natural cause. Her husband is charged with having murdered her on or about 19 April 2012. On 20 April 2012 he reported to police that she was missing. Ten days later her body was found underneath a bridge on the bank of a creek about 14 kilometres from her home. By then the body was badly decomposed.

• [2]The prosecution case includes the following circumstantial evidence:

• that on 19 April 2012 Allison was normal and made preparations to attend a conference the next day;

• the defendant was involved in an extra-marital affair and a few months earlier had promised the other woman that he would leave Allison and live with her; a commitment reinforced in a 3 April 2012 e-mail that he intended to stick to his promise and would be “separated by 1 July”;

• the defendant’s poor financial position, prompting him in March 2012 to seek a loan of about $300,000 from a friend as his last option;

• death benefits and superannuation for Allison totalled almost $1M;

• the advice given by a relationship counsellor to Allison and the defendant that they should set aside 10 to 15 minutes every second night so Allison could explain to Gerard the impact the affair had on her;

• on the night of 19 April 2012 a number of residents who lived near the defendant’s home heard noises which included yelling, the scream of a female and a dull thud followed by a car leaving;

• Allison’s blood in the back of the recently-acquired family vehicle;

• residents near the bridge where the body was found heard noises on the night of 19 April 2012, including thuds and a car door being shut;

• analysis of the defendant’s mobile phone which was inconsistent with his version to police that he was asleep between 10pm and 6am;

• despite extensive police inquiries, only one witness noticed a person matching the general description of Allison walking in her area: making it improbable that she took her usual early morning walk on 20 April 2012, let alone walked the long distance to the area in which her body was found.
• --------------------------------------------
• The autopsy report identified possible causes of death which could not be excluded. These included smothering and strangulation. Dr Milne could put these no higher than possibilities because any soft tissue injuries that may have been sustained to the face or neck would have been destroyed or obscured by decomposition and other post-mortem changes. The defendant seeks the exclusion of Dr Milne’s evidence about possible smothering and strangulation.
• Other possible causes of death from inflicted means are smothering and strangulation. Both of these methods may leave only minimal soft tissue injuries to the face and neck. As there were marked changes of decomposition involving these area, smothering and strangulation are possible causes of death. The larynx and hyoid bone in the neck were not injured; however strangulation does not always cause injuries to these structures, for example when a soft broad ligature is used. Such a ligature including clothing, and it is therefore possible that she had been strangled with the jumper she was wearing. As previously noted, the jumper may have come to be located up around her neck region by other means.
• Interesting read.

[url]https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/case/id/85000[/URL]

 

[steve richardson]

Doesn't giving reasons to favour an unnatural cause of death over a natural cause of death have to include evidence to support such a claim in order for the jury to consider in their determinations of the case?. As many have said its no easy job for LE from start to end!

• (10)Dr Milne may give his reasons for concluding that the circumstances favour an unnatural cause of death over a natural cause of death.
  
• (11)Dr Milne may not give evidence that possible causes of death are smothering and strangulation.

 

[sosocurious]

Doesn't giving reasons to favour an unnatural cause of death over a natural cause of death have to include evidence to support such a claim in order for the jury to consider in their determinations of the case?. As many have said its no easy job for LE from start to end!

• (10)Dr Milne may give his reasons for concluding that the circumstances favour an unnatural cause of death over a natural cause of death.
  
• (11)Dr Milne may not give evidence that possible causes of death are smothering and strangulation.

But Mr Ristevski's lawyer Sam Norton said he wanted to question the pathologist about what potential findings could be made for a body that had decomposed for such a length of time.
He also said there was an "odd" issue with the hyoid. The hyoid is a bone in the neck that sits between the chin and thyroid cartilage.
The hyoid bone can be of significance in forensic science as it can't be easily fractured and, if it has been damaged, it can be present in cases of suspected strangulation.
The court was not told whether it had fractured or not in this case and The Age is not suggesting there was a fracture.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-inconclusive-court-told-20180516-p4zfm7.html

These data indicate that hyoids of strangulation victims, with and without fracture, are distinguished by various indices of shape and rigidity. On this basis, it may be possible to explain why some victims of strangulation do not have fractured hyoid bones.

Fracture of the Hyoid Bone in Strangulation: Comparison of.... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14271885

 

[tmar]

But Mr Ristevski's lawyer Sam Norton said he wanted to question the pathologist about what potential findings could be made for a body that had decomposed for such a length of time.
He also said there was an "odd" issue with the hyoid. The hyoid is a bone in the neck that sits between the chin and thyroid cartilage.
The hyoid bone can be of significance in forensic science as it can't be easily fractured and, if it has been damaged, it can be present in cases of suspected strangulation.
The court was not told whether it had fractured or not in this case and The Age is not suggesting there was a fracture.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-inconclusive-court-told-20180516-p4zfm7.html

These data indicate that hyoids of strangulation victims, with and without fracture, are distinguished by various indices of shape and rigidity. On this basis, it may be possible to explain why some victims of strangulation do not have fractured hyoid bones.

Fracture of the Hyoid Bone in Strangulation: Comparison of.... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14271885

Great info Sosocurious. Thanks. :thinking:

 

[ozazure]

So infuriating that these bastards leave them somewhere and then time does it's work on the evidence and it aids in their defence.

I think Allison and Karen have some similarities, certainly their business and financial lives were both a mess, but I feel that Allison's killer had a much clearer motive and evidence of a long period of premeditation, although ultimately I still think he was mostly toying with the idea and not fully committed until he did it, hence the poorly executed crime.

Who knows what will come out about the circumstances surrounding Karen's demise, there might be incriminating web searches, phone calls or conversations prior to her murder we are yet to hear. Or it may turn out that it was garden variety rage, killing to destroy because of a conflict rather than to obtain some other goal, like life insurance and freedom to be in another relationship without an ex to deal with.

I am keen to hear the normal "missing person" timeline details we never got. When was she last seen outside the home by someone other than her family, when was her confirmed use of the phone or internet, and where were her family members during this period of time.

 

[Coldpizza]

Dear Websleuths Members,

WE ARE MOVING!

If you have ever used the blogs on Websleuths and you want to keep what you wrote you will need to copy your blog posts ASAP. When we move to our new software the blog posts will not transfer over. I'm very sorry but there is nothing we can do. We tried but alas, you will lose your blog posts if you do not save them before we move.

Monday, May 21[SUP]st[/SUP] at around 7:00 AM Eastern Websleuths will go down for hopefully no more than 48 hours. When we come back up it Websleuths will have a brand new look!

You can discuss the move RIGHT HERE if you like.

While we are down please check the Websleuths FACEBOOK PAGE and TWITTER ACCOUNT FOR UPDATES ON THE MOVE AND INFO ON THE LATEST BREAKING TRUE CRIME.

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[sosocurious]

Sarah Ristevski’s testimony could decide Borce Ristevski’s fate
HOW the testimony of Sarah Ristevski could make or break the case against her father, who has been charged with killing her mother.......

At a hearing this week, Magistrate Suzanne Cameron told the court that Sarah Ristevski, 22, would need advice in relation to her rights in giving evidence about her father.
Mr Boas said Ms Cameron was referring to a provision that allowed the children of defendants to refuse to testify against their parents, in the same way a husband or wife cannot be compelled to give evidence against their spouse.

“Whether or not a family member is compellable is a balancing exercise for the court,” Mr Boas told news.com.au
“The court balances the impact of compelling the witness to testify with the impact on the relationship and weighs that against the nature and gravity of the offence and the interests of justice being served.
“So she needs to be advised that she has the right before she is called to testify. If the judge makes the decision that her evidence is needed, compels her to give evidence and she refuses, she can be charged with contempt of court.
“Then it becomes quite a serious matter that can see a person jailed for anywhere from three months to a year.
“It really depends just how crucial Sarah’s evidence is to the prosecution case and we don’t know that yet.”............

“All witnesses will be asked to remain outside the court until such time as they have completed giving evidence.”
However, because of their blood ties to the defendant, the siblings are not banned from talking to each other or their father.
“Generally you don’t have contact between the accused and prosecution witnesses and bail conditions will say don’t contact witnesses or engage in activity that can be considered unreasonable interference,” Mr Boas said.
“But in this case there is nothing to stop Sarah from communicating with her father or visiting him in jail and nothing to prevent her from discussing the case with him.”


http://www.news.com.au/national/cou...e/news-story/b9e580f9b88e98a7722997852921ba8e

 

[sosocurious]

So the idea that this stoic young woman may have changed her mind about her father’s guilt is a compelling one but not necessarily accurate. The truth about her situation is far more interesting.

Gideon Boas, a barrister and associate professor at La Trobe University Law School, says Sarah’s presence among the 29 witnesses listed by the prosecution at her father’s committal hearing was not an indication that she had taken sides.

It is standard procedure for the crown to subpoena witnesses who have given statements to police, as Sarah and her father did in the early days when Karen was still a missing person.
She can also be called by the defence as a witness and of course both sides have the opportunity to cross-examine her.

http://www.news.com.au/national/cou...e/news-story/b9e580f9b88e98a7722997852921ba8e

 

[Horror]

I’m curious about the change of mind over the 24 hours to try to have closed proceedings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tmar]

I’m curious about the change of mind over the 24 hours to try to have closed proceedings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I agree Horror. Why???
You would think it would benefit their Client, to have closed proceedings:
"keep everything in Court, not to influence 'potential jury with info'.

 

[Horror]

Yes, I agree Horror. Why???
You would think it would benefit their Client, to have closed proceedings:
"keep everything in Court, not to influence 'potential jury with info'.

It makes me nervous. It’s like all of sudden they are not concerned. I guess we will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk