Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #5

[ScottKam]

I don't think they do have enough, and they'd be hoping to be able to recover her body before he is arrested and clams up for good.

So the idea is that Borce is not speaking now, though maintaining the preposterous fiction that she just went for a walk. But what about the phone pings of his and her phones? So the police need a dead body to finalise their claim that he killed her, for without a dead body it is still technically possible she just got a fake passport and absconded (VR) or left Borce after Sarah's 21st (The Rickard). Jesus, this is stupid. If i were on a jury i'd convict on the strength of what we publicly know, for i wouldn't need a dead torso to dismiss the theory she ran away. The pings damn him (no pun intended). The only wiggle room is if VR was up there and received the torso in a boot-to-boot transfer and then dumped it somewhere else, like 400km away. But even that is immaterial to Borce being guilty of murder. That is only pertinent to accessory after the fact charges. This just puzzles me. We have Borce convicted in the court of public opinion via pings, though the cops are not arresting. Perplexing.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Exactly! It's been reported that Karen's phone is now turned off. So this would indicate that it was turned off after the series of pings were detected along the Calder Highway several hours after she allegedly left home at 10:00am. Who turned her phone off and why? I don't think it was Karen.

So maybe the ping on her phone that police released is the one at the furthest point and where Borce turned it off?

I'm not sure I'm giving him that much credit really, I think if he was smart enough to come up with that he'd have said she told him she was meeting somewhere up that way or similar.

 

[Melbourne Lass]

If she was in the house she might not have had shoes on.

It's winter. She would have cold feet...

 

[Makara]

So the idea is that Borce is not speaking now, though maintaining the preposterous fiction that she just went for a walk. But what about the phone pings of his and her phones? So the police need a dead body to finalise their claim that he killed her, for without a dead body it is still technically possible she just got a fake passport and absconded (VR) or left Borce after Sarah's 21st (The Rickard). Jesus, this is stupid. If i were on a jury i'd convict on the strength of what we publicly know, for i wouldn't need a dead torso to dismiss the theory she ran away. The pings damn him (no pun intended). The only wiggle room is if VR was up there and received the torso in a boot-to-boot transfer and then dumped it somewhere else, like 400km away. But even that is immaterial to Borce being guilty of murder. That is only pertinent to accessory after the fact charges. This just puzzles me. We have Borce convicted in the court of public opinion via pings, though the cops are not arresting. Perplexing.

The pings are damning but not enough to convict. Investigators have to prove who were actually with those phones when they pinged.

 

[ScottKam]

The pings are damning but not enough to convict. Investigators have to prove who were actually with those phones when they pinged.

Good point, didn't think of that. You have to prove that Borce had his phone on him, or he was in possesion of Karen's at the time hers pinged far out.

Further, in slightly related news, The Rickard has 5 mobiles- who knows who is in possession of those; and given that phone pings are the flavour of the day, i wonder where Rickard's phones were pinging. Although i don't think he was involved, i can't dismiss entirely the idea that Rickard was an accessory after the fact, for he lives nearby and who knows how crazy **** got...... But I admit this is in the category of technical possibility up there with Karen and fake passports.

 

[Hbayne]

So the idea is that Borce is not speaking now, though maintaining the preposterous fiction that she just went for a walk. But what about the phone pings of his and her phones? So the police need a dead body to finalise their claim that he killed her, for without a dead body it is still technically possible she just got a fake passport and absconded (VR) or left Borce after Sarah's 21st (The Rickard). Jesus, this is stupid. If i were on a jury i'd convict on the strength of what we publicly know, for i wouldn't need a dead torso to dismiss the theory she ran away. The pings damn him (no pun intended). The only wiggle room is if VR was up there and received the torso in a boot-to-boot transfer and then dumped it somewhere else, like 400km away. But even that is immaterial to Borce being guilty of murder. That is only pertinent to accessory after the fact charges. This just puzzles me. We have Borce convicted in the court of public opinion via pings, though the cops are not arresting. Perplexing.

Not really perplexing. If you recall the murder of Allison Baden clay at the hands of her husband. Police maintain now that they knew from day 1 ge was guilty. It took some time before he was finally arrested. They want everything crossed off correctly before they pounce , and a body would be helpful too.

 

[SouthAussie]

Good point, didn't think of that. You have to prove that Borce had his phone on him, or he was in possesion of Karen's at the time hers pinged far out.

RSBM

I think, too, this is why the 60 CCTV cameras and the other local CCTV are so important. They perhaps have footage of the perpetrator in his car near certain locations at around the time the pings were recorded.

 

[Makara]

So maybe the ping on her phone that police released is the one at the furthest point and where Borce turned it off?

I'm not sure I'm giving him that much credit really, I think if he was smart enough to come up with that he'd have said she told him she was meeting somewhere up that way or similar.

I give him credit for being that stupid. He obviously didn't think that Karen's phone would ping on the journey out there. He then turns if off when the phone and Karen are disposed of. Turning the phone off to make it look like she didn't want to be contacted but more importantly so that if anyone phoned Karen's mobile, the ring tone wouldn't be heard by anyone in the area.

IMO BR didn't even consider that the phones would be detected at all. A big mistake on his part.

 

[ScottKam]

RSBM

I think, too, this is why the 60 CCTV cameras and the other local CCTV are so important. They perhaps have footage of the perpetrator in his car near certain locations at around the time the pings were recorded.

Well this gets to the heart of the matter, i think. I think trawling through CCTV footage is what the police are quite possibly waiting on, rather than a dead torso. I don't see what value a dead torso will offer the case. Nothing. For what theories are discounted by finding a dead torso? That Karen did not take out a fake passport to run away? But nobody believes that anway. So the police could not be waiting to arrest based on that. It must be that they are waiting for CCTV footage to see who was driving and to where, to see, i think, if Borce handed the torso to someone else. A dead torso won't convince the jury of anything more than the phone pings will. Borce has been caught lying, obviously for murder. I guess they have to get CCTV footage of Karen's merc driving up there, with borce driving, and link it to phone pings at the time- correlate them. Thus showing she was in the boot. The torso can't prove anything more, except to add detail of the precise nature of the murder, if that is discernible from the body.

 

[Makara]

Well this gets to the heart of the matter, i think. I think trawling through CCTV footage is what the police are quite possibly waiting on, rather than a dead torso. I don't see what value a dead torso will offer the case. Nothing. For what theories are discounted by finding a dead torso? That Karen did not take out a fake passport to run away? But nobody believes that anway. So the police could not be waiting to arrest based on that. It must be that they are waiting for CCTV footage to see who was driving and to where, to see, i think, if Borce handed the torso to someone else. A dead torso won't convince the jury of anything more than the phone pings will. Borce has been caught lying, obviously for murder. I guess they have to get CCTV footage of Karen's merc driving up there, with borce driving, and link it to phone pings then. Thus showing she was in the boot. The torso can't prove anything more, except to add detail of the precise nature of the murder, if that is discernible from the body.

It's amazing how quickly a murderer will crumble once their victim's body has been found.

 

[JLZ]

I'll throw in the suggestion that Borce turned off his phone after receiving the Uber request. He wasn't up to Uber driving that day either because he'd been disposing of Karen or because he was beginning to worry about her.

 

[Hbayne]

It's amazing how quickly a murderer will crumble once their victim's body has been found.

Plus any evidence dna found on body From the murderer.

 

[ScottKam]

It's amazing how quickly a murderer will crumble once their victim's body has been found.

yeah, good call. I agree. Obviously there is the emotional impact of finding the dead torso. That finality is tectonic and it helps smooth the prosecution, but not always, as we've seen today. Gerard Baden Clay truly is a .

 

[drsleuth]

So the idea is that Borce is not speaking now, though maintaining the preposterous fiction that she just went for a walk. But what about the phone pings of his and her phones? So the police need a dead body to finalise their claim that he killed her, for without a dead body it is still technically possible she just got a fake passport and absconded (VR) or left Borce after Sarah's 21st (The Rickard). Jesus, this is stupid. If i were on a jury i'd convict on the strength of what we publicly know, for i wouldn't need a dead torso to dismiss the theory she ran away. The pings damn him (no pun intended). The only wiggle room is if VR was up there and received the torso in a boot-to-boot transfer and then dumped it somewhere else, like 400km away. But even that is immaterial to Borce being guilty of murder. That is only pertinent to accessory after the fact charges. This just puzzles me. We have Borce convicted in the court of public opinion via pings, though the cops are not arresting. Perplexing.

BBM I for one am glad you are not on a jury.........a little thing called evidence is needed :facepalm:

Dead torso.......really :tantrum:

 

[ScottKam]

BBM I for one am glad you are not on a jury.........a little thing called evidence is needed :facepalm:

Dead torso.......really :tantrum:

Yeah, maybe the phone pings show Borce helping Karen to take out the fake passport VR so helpfully told us about. We need the dead body to discount this plausible theory.

 

[Makara]

I don't see what value a dead torso will offer the case. Nothing.

<RSBM>

yeah, good call. I agree. Obviously there is the emotional impact of finding the dead torso. That finality is tectonic and it helps smooth the prosecution, but not always, as we've seen today. Gerard Baden Clay truly is a .

BBM: If Allison Baden-Clay's body had not been found, GBC would still be walking around free today. Locating Karen, dead or alive is the investigator's main priority here. Any other evidence they accumulate during their investigation will assist in determining what happened to Karen but none more so than forensic evidence from her dead body.

 

[Makara]

So the idea is that Borce is not speaking now, though maintaining the preposterous fiction that she just went for a walk. But what about the phone pings of his and her phones? So the police need a dead body to finalise their claim that he killed her, for without a dead body it is still technically possible she just got a fake passport and absconded (VR) or left Borce after Sarah's 21st (The Rickard). Jesus, this is stupid. If i were on a jury i'd convict on the strength of what we publicly know, for i wouldn't need a dead torso to dismiss the theory she ran away. The pings damn him (no pun intended). The only wiggle room is if VR was up there and received the torso in a boot-to-boot transfer and then dumped it somewhere else, like 400km away. But even that is immaterial to Borce being guilty of murder. That is only pertinent to accessory after the fact charges. This just puzzles me. We have Borce convicted in the court of public opinion via pings, though the cops are not arresting. Perplexing.

If you were a jury member you would be instructed by the judge to disregard what you've learned publically about the case. You would be instructed by the judge to listen to all of the evidence put forward by the prosecution.

 

[ScottKam]

<RSBM>



BBM: If Allison Baden-Clay's body had not been found, GBC would still be walking around free today. Locating Karen, dead or alive is the investigator's main priority here. Any other evidence they accumulate during their investigation will assist in determining what happened to Karen but none more so than forensic evidence from her dead body.

I disagree, Makara. The main priority here is the CCTV footage. Borce has been caught in what can only be termed retrospective changes to recollection about his movements on the day. that is, he simply 'forgot' to mention he took Karen's car for a drive. Further, based on phone pings, he seems to have been caught flat out lying. I don't see what Karen's dead body will prove beyond what the phone pings already prove and Borce's own forgetful, and therefore damning, behaviour proves. If we find Karen was murdered- that won't show anything other than what is being implied in the media, and which most of the forum believes. Thus i claim that even on the strength of current evidence- sans body- they should charge, for i, and i assume others, would convict. Gerard Baden Clay wasn't caught on phone pings, right? That is why they needed Allison's body and the matching flora. A dead body is not always necessary, if the behaviour is suspicious enough to warrant prosecution. Borce's behaviour is damning enough, i believe, though they are not arresting based on searching through more CCTV footage to finalse the proof- but the search for Karen's body, while a simultaneous effort, is not the priority to obtain conviction.

 

[Adrianna]

I disagree, Makara. The main priority here is the CCTV footage. Borce has been caught in a what can only be termed retrospective changes to recollection about his movements on the day. that is, he simply 'forgot' to mention he took Karen's car for a drive. Further, based on phone pings, he seems to have been caught flat out lying. I don't see what Karen's dead body will prove beyond what the phone pings already prove and Borce's own forgetful, and therefore damning, behaviour proves. If we find Karen was murdered- that won't show anything other than what is being implied in the media, and which most of the forum believes. Thus i claim that even on the strength of current evidence- sans body- they should charge, for i, and i assume others, would convict. Gerard Baden Clay wasn't caught on phone pings, right? That is why they needed Allison's body and the matching flora. A dead body is not always necessary, if the behaviour is suspicious enough to warrant prosecution. Borce's behaviour is damning enough, i believe, though they are not arresting based on searching through more CCTV footage to finalse the proof- but the search for Karen's body, while a simultaneous effort, is not the priority.

The dead have a story to tell and with a body the police have a lot ....... yes they are looking at pings but they will want to find Karen if she is deceased for her family and to bring justice for her.

 

[ScottKam]

The dead have a story to tell and with a body the police have a lot ....... yes they are looking at pings but they will want to find Karen if she is deceased for her family and to bring justice for her.

Sure, no one is denying, from an emotional, moral, humane, sympathetic perspective that finding Karen's body is the best result for her family, to properly honour her in death. I am, however, speaking about the legal standpoint and why the police are not currently arresting- whether they need a body to prove Borce killed Karen, or whether they can convict Borce based solely on evidence so far, which is phone pings. I am maintaining, different to other claims, that the CCTV footage is what is the priority here-- not Karen's body-- to convict Borce. You have to place Borce up there, near Karen's phone. Finding Karen dead up there won't help convict Borce if Borce is not up there also- for he'll merely claim, YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, i drove the merc to test the fuel gauge, but came back and never went out that far- someone else OUT THAT FAR killed her. That is reasonable doubt. Would you convict Borce of Karen's murder if he was not placed, proved, located out as far as Karen's body? I wouldn't, but i would if he claimed he was not in Gisborne on the day, if he said so, though phone pings show he indeed was, AND THEN, Karen's body was never found. Alternatively, we face finding Karen's body in Gisborne, though never being able to place Borce up there. In the latter scenario, no dice; no conviction. That is what i am saying. Sounds reasonable, sensible to me.